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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Requesting opinions on paid mods

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Scene Commander
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 01:23
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Hi all.

We're looking for some opinions on paid/commerical mods and would like to hear what you guys think. I'd like to ask a few questions but all comments are welcome.

Here you go:

A) Are people prepared to pay for mods generally?

B) What sort of features would make you consider paying for a mod?

C) If you were prepared to pay for a mod; What sort price would you feel was acceptable?

I should just say that we have no intention of charging for WASP mod and plan to develop it further for free; however we do have many ideas and have had many requests for features that would simply be too time consuming to add for free and would like to know if users feel that they would be prepared to pay for a mod which meet their needs?

http://jimjamsgames.yolasite.com
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Scientist101
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 01:40
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Responses.

A) If people want to use software that has been developed, they either pay for the product offered by another, they make their own, or make due without. I have paid for/would pay for mods if they had something that I really needed.

B) Support is a big thing for me. When you purchase something and down the road you encounter an error, will the developer be around to give support? Will they be pulling the plug after X amount of purchases? Will they have someone that is able or willing to provide good support? I am not suggesting you would not- on the contrary you have been good at responding to people and their questions/issues. I am outlining some things that I have noticed by observation.

C) It is up to the developer. Let me put it another way- if I need that piece of software/hardware to do my job, I do not get asked by the seller "what would you prepare to pay us for it?" They set the price. In your case, you would most likely have to try and project what kind of sales to expect, then factor your time for development, then calculate your price based on your time and those that do buy it to make it worth your while. Just don't sell yourself short.

It is the same as making model packs. Some do it for free, some charge. If some mods are free, why not have more than one mod that is a paid mod? Besides, one paid mod is pretty much non-existent in both development and support. We may as well have something new that just may be a benefit to developers. Not all of us are doing this for a hobby- there are many "in the shadows" that do this and are good at developing that can use/are willing to pay for good work others put their time into.

Hope that answers.
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Flatlander
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 01:56
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Also, I think a mod could be sold in the store. But then that may not be the right move.


Terry
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NinjaKiller
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 02:13
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Hi, I would be happy to pay for a mod as long as it was extremely high quality and managed to keep up with new source code. Also I'm very skeptical to buy a mod after I bought Project Blue and it closed on me. I know I get a discount on Project Apex, but I dont think I can get money to even buy it with the discount. If I got some sort of guarantee of free future mods then I would definitely buy!



Call me Ninja
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Kravenwolf
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 02:32 Edited at: 13th Apr 2011 02:37
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I've had a rather ignorant suggestion for quite some time that I'll throw out there now since this seems to be the best place for it. I think it would be an interesting approach if a mod developer were to offer personal modifications on a per customer basis. For example;

John wants a mod for his current game project that provides a few of the features available in Project Blue. We'll say, duel wielding and custom full screen shaders for show. These are the only two features that'll he'll be needing for his game. So, why shouldn't John just use Project Blue? Would it not be beneficial to game performance if John could have a mod crafted to his exact specifications; leaving out every other feature and line of unused code to optimize his engine to the best ability? (Running with the mindset of; "build your engine around your game, not your game around your engine")


I do admit that I have very limited knowledge when it comes to programming, so I can't pitch this concept with confidence that it would make a performance increase considerable enough to be worth the effort involved. Nor can I fully say that this is even a good idea at all from a programmer's point of view. It would of course, understandiblly be a bit more complicated and labor intensive for the mod developer having to work on multiple sources.

Maybe a more reasonable approach for the mod developer would be for the developer to cut up' his current mainstream mod (we'll use Wasp Mod for example); removing this unused code and that unused code for this customer's custom build, and adding this action for this customer. Granted, it would require more organization and customer tracking on the developer's behalf; but it would also provide a means of extra income as well. ie; the customer buys your mainstream mod for $20.00, then he can have a, we'll call it, "stripping" modification done to it for another $20.00 where all code he won't be needing is removed. Additional changes/additions down the road to his build can be done for additional charges.

Again, just an idea I've been wanting to throw at mod developers' for some time now.


Kravenwolf

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Scientist101
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 02:47
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That is not an ignorant suggestion at all. This is a real-life fact in the world. There are many places where you can buy products and pay to have them enhanced, modified, etc. I agree with Kravenwolf as well with the suggestion. Have a main price for the "basic" mod, then have a price for modifications afterward. This way if one person has some modifications that require time, they can pay for it directly, and the developers are not losing all their time and efforts.

I would go with that as well.
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BlackFox
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 04:10
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Both Scientist101, Kravenwolf, and NinjaKiller have nailed a few issues that will need to be looked at for your success. First off, we've already had a paid mod come and drop off, and the support for the mod was... well a few people are not very impressed or happy. People might be skeptical to buying yet another mod, wondering if it too will have the same result. Mind you, I know you and your developing partner well enough to say there is no worries or risk.

I do like Kravenwolf's suggestion. Having a "starting" mod available for a price and having the ability to pay for additional features is something worth thinking about. I may need a couple of features added, whereas Kravenwolf might not want the same and want a completely different feature added. In the end, it becomes a win-win for the client and yourself. But the downside is that you will have your work cut out with client tracking- who requested what, ensuring you don't send the wrong update to the wrong person, etc.

Overall, if you had a mod that was paid, we would pay for it without question.

- BlackFox

The function of good software is to make the complex appear to be simple.
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Ched80
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 11:10
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I thought I'd give my two pennies worth:

Personally I'm not interested in paying for anything in FPSC, mods or media. I use FPSC solely for fun and I only ever use freely available content. That sounds mean, but I would also never consider charging for any of my output for the same reasons.

There's definately a market for payed mods, PB is a testament to this, but I think the expectations of a payed mod, in terms of quality and support, are an order of magnitude higher than that of a free mod.

The client-specific mod idea mentioned above sound like a nightmare to implement and manage. I love the idea of a pay-as-you-go mod, but from a development and support POV I think you would create a lot of work for yourself.

Good luck with the new probject, whatever you decide.

[url="http://raptr.com/No_Turn_Right?src=em_forum"][/url]
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Scene Commander
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 11:22 Edited at: 13th Apr 2011 11:22
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Thanks for comments so far guys, please keep them coming. This is all very helpful.

The idea of mod customisation is always one which could be considered and one which I'm certainly interested in, but from a practical point of view, it might not be something we could offer right from the tart. Maybe a month or so after the initial release. I don't think anyone would want us working on 10 versions from the outset.

I'm fairly certain we wouldn't be able to have a set price for additional work, as it really would depend on what was requested but I'd imagine we could keep it reasonable.

As for tracking orders, I don't imagine that would be a major issue. I have a strong background in project management and would like to think that we could offer a decent service.

http://jimjamsgames.yolasite.com
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Kerrby
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 11:42
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A) Are people prepared to pay for mods generally?
I would be prepared to pay depending on the price, but also if it's on par with other mods.

B) What sort of features would make you consider paying for a mod?
I think customizable achievements might be cool . To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what features I'd pay for. Obviously most mods have graphical enhancements such as shaders and whatnot which I think is needed.

C) If you were prepared to pay for a mod; What sort price would you feel was acceptable?
I feel that mods shouldn't be more than say $5-$10. What I don't agree with is when mods cost more than the program itself.


WizMod Developer.
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lotgd
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 13:13
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A) Are people prepared to pay for mods generally?
best free, but if the work is so good, and the support there, happy to give you something.

B) What sort of features would make you consider paying for a mod?
Good technical support, do not buy more mod if you are not able to solve problems arising from a commercial product.

C) If you were prepared to pay for a mod; What sort price would you feel was acceptable?
10 Euro Max!

I hope that in future mod there is something concrete on the multiplayer

A good inventory system

A few good scripts for the cameras, like the resident evil, the third person, or silent hill camera system

And other good features

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Anigma
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Posted: 13th Apr 2011 16:48
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I'm mixed on it really.

I love FPSC. It's a ton of fun to slap together a level, drop some characters in it and run around shooting things. My kids and I have had countless hours of fun just experimenting around. And the new model packs that folks are coming up with are really top notch stuff. I'm so impressed with the level of work that has been put into the model packs lately, and allowing FPSC model packs to be used in other engines makes them worth having all by themselves even without FPSC installed.

At the same time, FPSC drives me crazy. It's painfully slow compared to other engines on all but the simplest of maps, the script language is still very limited (especially in terms of the player object), level geometry looks like something from 15-20 years ago, and it seems a gnat landing on your monitor at just the right time is all it takes to cause either the editor or runtime to crash.

The 3 main things I'd actually pay for in a mod would be:

1. Stability. I don't really care if the thing can do motion blur full screen shaders and switch from first to third person with 16 different camera angles. I DO care if the game can be minimized, tabbed away from or abused in other ways without crashing. I'd pay for that, because I NEED IT to actually make a game I can sell. Turning a light off and on should not sometimes result in a runtime error for example, but in FPSC (on my machine anyway) it does.

2. Speed. Again, the shaders are neat to look at and we all would love to see AI like bulletstorm or black ops, but FPSC is at it's best when things are kept simple. So forget the whiz bang shaders and let the entities be idiots and let's see if 30-45 fps can be achieved on a normal, off the shelf, average computer. I'd pay for this also.

3. Support. Let's say I put together a game using your mod, I get a publisher to agree to buy it, but it crashes in QA when they do {insert off the wall thing customers do that programmers never expect here}. I need to be able to email you and get either a fix, a workaround, or access to the source code so I can take a crack at fixing it myself and get it to pass QA so I can get paid. I'd pay money for this also.

Beyond these three things, I can't really see a reason to pay for a mod. The main reason I don't use mods at all is because I really can't lose my access to the game's source code in case there's a problem I need to go in and fix. Would I love some of the features available only in a mod? Sure! But they do me no good if the game crashes or runs like molasses in January, and the publisher or portal wants me to fix it before they'll sell my game. If I go with a mod, I'm at that mod developer's mercy. Not a good place to be with deadlines and bills looming over your head.

Best of luck on it, regardless. FPSC is fun to play with and I'll always have a copy of it installed to dink around on when I'm bored or just need a fun diversion, but I'm ready to use the wonderful media I have bought for it (along with other future purchases I have planned) in my own engine, namely to address the issues I've outlined above.
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Scene Commander
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Posted: 14th Apr 2011 18:09
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Thanks again for replies, this has been helpful.

Does anyone else have any comments?

http://jimjamsgames.yolasite.com
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bruce3371
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Posted: 15th Apr 2011 00:03
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A) Are people prepared to pay for mods generally?

Yes, knowing the amount of work that has gone into it.

B) What sort of features would make you consider paying for a mod?

Speed and stability, scripting that involved only a few clicks, e.g. choose a condition and action or two in a drop down menu, and the script is put together for you. (I believe Dominik was working on a system similar to this, but I haven't seen any progress for a while).

C) If you were prepared to pay for a mod; What sort price would you feel was acceptable?

About the same as a model pack.

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Northern
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Posted: 15th Apr 2011 00:46
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Hello everyone,

I agree with everything Anigma wrote above, because very important points were highlighted brilliantly in the Anigma's post, especially regarding stability, speed or performance in FPSC (which in my opinion represents one of the biggest bottlenecks of the FPSC software) and as well as technical support issues.Congratulations.

To complement what has been written by Anigma I will add another item:

DOCUMENTATION: or rather, GOOD DOCUMENTATION: I have tried to test some mods, free and paid one, but all those present a lack of documentation about how to use the mod, step by step, making practical examples (tutorials) of how to come to life all those wonderful things that their authors say that the mod is able to make in the game.

If someone thinks that making a list of statements or scripts that a software is capable of compiling is a documentation, then there is something wrong!

I can even hear people screaming out loud things like, this things are for experienced users, gurus, highly skilled guys, this is not for beginners, actually not for beginners! Yes it could be, however that was not mentioned when someone has advertised those mods to sell or for free delivery.

Further, also I already know that to write tutorials and documentation is very hard and time consuming task as well.


However, in my opinion, if I have paid for something I have a right to know how to use it correctly, is that correct?

No offense, but for ethics reasons, I wont mention the mods name that I have bought and until nowdays I never did anything useful with that program, because I don't know how to use it correctly and I feeling like I wasted my money for nothing. No documentation at all just a bunch of programming statements or scripts fully useless for beginners, like me, of course!

You remember that, game performance and stability (mandatory both) and good or great documentation (mostly) are very, very important issues in either a game mod or game engine as well.

Thank you for reading!

Regards.

Northern
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crispex
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Posted: 15th Apr 2011 03:35
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I personally wouldn't pay for a mod unless it drastically improved the functionality of FPS Creator, I don't want to be rude, but we all saw where those who paid for Project Blue got, they get a discount on the next "new" mod while once the update comes out it'll render PB pretty much usless.*

The problem is trust for me. I don't think I could trust the developers of these paid mods simply because they simply cut development down just because there is "something else" to be doing. Basically once they've got your money they feel no real "need" (for the most part) to continue to develop. I know there are a LOT of developers around here to stay faithful to their projects, but I really can't see paying out my money especially if it offers features that will eventually make their way to FPS Creator anyway. Plus if you look at it each mod copies off of one another from time to time, so you always feel like you're getting the same product, at that point it's more of a decision whether or not you want to get the features properly coded or crappy coding.

*Note, this is based on about a month ago I haven't checked the thread since then.

I just now realized I've had a typo in my signature for the past 3 years.
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Scene Commander
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Posted: 15th Apr 2011 10:56
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Ok, reading through so far...

I think it would be a shame to dismiss all developers based on the behaviour of a few as regarding support, but I'd say reading through this thread, that lack of support for a product that a user has paid for is something of an understandable concern to people.

Secondly, stability. A far expectation.

And lastly, performance improvements.

Does anyone have anything else to add? Please feel free to correct me if you think I've not covered the major areas of concern.

http://jimjamsgames.yolasite.com
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Ched80
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Posted: 15th Apr 2011 11:05
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I think price is the only thing you've missed

[url="http://raptr.com/No_Turn_Right?src=em_forum"][/url]
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Scene Commander
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Posted: 15th Apr 2011 11:08
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Quote: "I think price is the only thing you've missed"


Sorry, and of course price.

http://jimjamsgames.yolasite.com
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