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Work in Progress / Dark Imposters plugin DBPro/GDK

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Matty H
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 20:54
TGC build the installer, perhaps they have not added the new example.
Could you try re-installing?

Is the example code in the help file?

If that does not work I will email them to see where it has gone

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 21:03
Matty H

in the help file it only talks about it
not example

I will try the reinstall process

any chance of E-mailing me the "Added culling example" ?

If a thought is Just a thought ~ so whats the main thought ?
Matty H
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 21:21
I have attached the help file that you should have, but seems you dont.

The culling example uses the same media as the other examples so you should be able to just copy/paste the code.

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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 21:33
thanks Matty H

it seems the uninstall
only removed the registry entry
all files stay in place and then preregistering
with DBP server

I saw no other changes

I'll download what you posted

Matty H

have you been give a list of who has bought Dark Imposters ?

If a thought is Just a thought ~ so whats the main thought ?
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 21:44
yes I can copy and past from the help file
unforchantly it's one long line
I am going though it down and getting it to
show like it dose in there

If a thought is Just a thought ~ so whats the main thought ?
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 21:55
after the fact

I found if I right click
I get to look at the page as a web page code

it was displayed correctly there

any ways the example works but I did not see the
"update progress bar " .. a good thing

If a thought is Just a thought ~ so whats the main thought ?
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 17th Jul 2011 05:11
umm it seems the folder "Culling"

was created

but the only file that was not updated was
the help.chm

so only a tiny bit was missing

If a thought is Just a thought ~ so whats the main thought ?
Morcilla
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Posted: 25th Aug 2011 20:51 Edited at: 25th Aug 2011 21:05
@Matty, I thought this could be a good improvement to include in my project, but I'm having some problems. I'm using DGDK version:



Does not seem to be working

If I change in the 'Dynamic Imposters' example the following line:



By this other one:



then imposters cannot be seen. This is causing me headaches, as some of my objects have a fixed base object, and I cannot use



instead.

Also I do not understand how can 'ast' (source objects 1 and 2) be the LOD objects for the 'obj' asteroids, as I cannot see them related in the code. Is this some internal LOD that Dark Imposters manage?

Another thing that I've noticed is that it does not work very well for fast-animated objects, for example I can see the jumps if I make those asteroids to spin faster. Is there any approach to optimize this behaviour?

Quote: "At the moment it does not support shaders, it is something I may look into. I think certain fx will not be noticable as imposters are always at a distance, also, rendering the object to texture as fast as possible may be better in some circumstances, as long as the imposter is far away enough for the player not to notice."


Does that means that, for example, those asteroids cannot have a normal map shader applied? What is exactly the reason?

This is bad news really. All objects do have shaders nowadays.
I do use a quite high number of shaders, and believe me when I say that there is a BIG difference between the shadered object and the original one, even at a distance.

I guess one solution would be to apply the shader everytime the object gets closer, but this would cause a 'jump' because of the different appearances between the shadered object and the original one. You know, shaders really can change lighting. Any advice regarding the shader usage would be appreciated.
Also I would like to know if I'm going to encounter problems with full-screen shaders like bloom/HDR, or if the multiple-camera handling is able to manage this kind of shaders.

I have to make further tests, but to continue steady, I would like to have

int impGroupAddObject (int groupID, int objectID)

fixed. Aren't the objects without LOD the most benefited from this? As you stated:
Quote: "You save time/memory from having to create/load lots of lod levels for each model. Every model you have can be optimised without any extra work."


Oh well, I'm sure you'll try to do your best. This must be the worthiest plugin of the year

[Edit: Oh, one last thing. To make perfect the imposters match, I think that a impGroupSetCameraAspect function would be needed. Something like this:


]

Matty H
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Posted: 25th Aug 2011 22:16
Hi Morcilla,

I can confirm that full screen shaders work, all the ones I have tried so far anyway.

The imposters are created and rendered with DirectX, pretty much working alongside dark basic. This is why I have to do everything from scratch, drawing the objects to the imposter etc. I use a simplified version of the render functions from the dbPro source code. I tried to take what I needed from the dbPro source to apply shaders in my own code but it never worked, it does get pretty involved.

I will take another look at the weekend, I may be able to approach it differently.

As far as the LOD parameter goes, this has two uses, I should make this clear in the docs. You can use it for an LOD object but that is not what is happening in the examples. It is also used for instanced objects, as you may know, instanced objects share almost everything, so I can't draw an instanced object to an imposter without knowing what object holds all non unique object information. It turned out that the LOD flag fixed this without me having to do any extra work although I should make that clear in the examples.

Quote: "Another thing that I've noticed is that it does not work very well for fast-animated objects, for example I can see the jumps if I make those asteroids to spin faster. Is there any approach to optimize this behaviour?"


This is a limitation of imposters, they are 2D so spinning objects need to be updated more or the imposters need to be set further back, both will cause some slow down, its a balance to use imposters as much as possible without the player noticing too much.

I will look at the camera aspect thing too

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2011 23:50 Edited at: 25th Aug 2011 23:53
This sounds like a great add-on. How do animations work? If I move limbs on an object can this program update the limb changes? I want to make an ants nest, the more ants I can put in it the better, but I am manually controlling the ant limbs to animate them, with probably thousands of animation possibilities per ant.

Matty H
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Posted: 26th Aug 2011 01:22
Hi Pincho Paxton,

Animations work fine, you can set the imposters to update on a timer so the animations keep updating. For instance, you could set the imposters to update 3-4 times a second, if the imposters are not too close then it should look good enough to fool the player

If you look at the video on the product page you will see that distant animations don't update as much but it's not very noticable.

Due to the way dark basic updates animations I think your objects(ants) may need to be instanced, because when normal objects turn into imposters the object is hidden from view and dbPro stops updating the animations(not sure if this can be changed), you can work around this with instanced objects.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 26th Aug 2011 13:23
I think that instanced objects have to all animate the exact same way. My ants are going to all be doing individual tasks, with different animations per ant. If it can't do the ants I can still use the program for foliage anyway.

Matty H
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Posted: 26th Aug 2011 14:48
Quote: "I think that instanced objects have to all animate the exact same way."


Yes, thats correct, you can use imposters for armies of entities but you would need to have a few unique entities, say 10, and then have 100 of each instanced to create an army.

There is a large overhead by animating hundreds of unique objects, you may need a shader to handle the animations unless you go down the instanced route, depends how you do it I suppose.

Yes you can use it for foliage also.

Matty H
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 17:03
@Morcilla - I never got a chance to look at adding shaders this weekend. I started adding some features to Dark DynamiX thinking I would be finished in 4-5 hours and I am still working on it now

I will definitely look into it as soon as I finish, sorry about the delay.

Morcilla
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 20:50 Edited at: 29th Aug 2011 20:52
Hey Matty, if it can be solved that's already great. I'm not expecting a 24x7 support! Thanks for including it into your plans.

To be honest I have to say that the shaders improvement is kind of a must in my opinion.
However I'm afraid that, in the particular case of my project, maybe more changes are needed, because I haven't been able to integrate Dark Imposters with it.

I have very large objects that are very far, like 10,000,000 DBPro units away, and they still fill half the screen (they are big). I'm thinking that the current system doesn't support this.
I get almost blank imposters. They would be blank if it wasn't for the 'non power of 2' artifacts in the edges, but the Imposters texture group has been created with a power or two (32x32), so this is not the reason.
Also they position with some jerkyness. So I guess those objects are beyond of the limits of what the Dark Imposters try to see.
I bet that's because it is using floats, the normal thing to do.
Now MPL3D Solar System would need the libraries compiled with doubles instead of floats, and have increased the rendering limits, aaaand the shaders

My plans were to use Dark Imposters for the distant nebulae, star clusters, and galaxies, all heavily shadered.

As a start, maybe you could confirm if those distance figures are too huge for Dark Imposters, or if the reason for my problems could be a different one.

Also I would like to know if Dark Imposters takes ownership of any DBPro ID's for textures and/or objects, that could get in conflict with existing objects.

I know those are many questions and subjects, so please take your time. I'm just trying to give this a serious use, and I hope Dark Imposters gets benefited as well from my questions

Matty H
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 21:22
Hi Morcilla,

I tested it with distant objects but perhaps not on the scale you are using, I will do more tests and see what happens with huge objects far far away

The double thing may not be too much trouble, I will look at that.

It may help if you send me one object with the shader and anything else it needs, tell me the distance and size you want it and I can use it for testing. Don't worry if you can't send anything, I will look into it the best I can.

Morcilla
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Posted: 10th Sep 2011 20:14
Matty, sorry that I don't have the time to make further tests by now.
Maybe I'll try to use Dark Imposters with some other entities.
I'll also try to isolate the big distance case and see how it goes.
Yes I think that replacing all floats by doubles wouldn't be that much effort, and perhaps both versions of the functions could be included in the libs.
In any case, many thanks all along for looking into this

Matty H
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Posted: 10th Sep 2011 20:41
@Morcilla
I should be able to look at this again in a few days, I am just finishing off my current project.

Morcilla
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Posted: 13th Sep 2011 19:57
Alright, no problem

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 18th Oct 2011 11:01
I finally got "BlitzwerksTerrainDemo" working

I want to get the frame count up
using "Dark Imposters plugin" in DBP

The CPS I can get is 41 and 39 being the average

I know some of it is how the example is built

the hiding and showing of the high and low detail tree's
slows things down a bit and the
distance the tree cover is the other part

if I can get a pointer that would be of great help

I've tweaked the example now so I can show and hide
the texture of the matrix like the examples that it came with

If a thought is Just a thought ~ so whats the main thought ?
Matty H
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Posted: 19th Oct 2011 17:21
@Resourceful - It's up to the programmer to decide how to get the best use out of the imposter system. Try using smaller textures or packing as many objects as you can on each texture.

When there are lots of objects on screen it should take little effort to get good fps improvements with imposters.


@Morcilla - I have tried a couple of times now to draw to texture with effects applied but not having much luck. It's a matter of drawing an object with your own custom drawing command, taking what you need from the dark basic source code. If you look at the relevant part of the source code you will see how confusing it is, it is full of nested if-else statements, I think it's because the code base is a few years old now and things have been added in over the years

I was thinking about asking lee if he could separate the drawing function out for me but it may be a big ask and I know they are pretty busy.

If you are interested, I could email you the relevant part of the dark imposters code and you can take a look for yourself, you may even get it to work

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 20th Oct 2011 10:32 Edited at: 20th Oct 2011 10:34
Matty H

easy for you to say

the fact that it's taken me this long to get the code working for Blitzworks Terran demo code working
and no one helped me should say how much harder it is for me to get the understanding I need

as far as I understand Dark Imposter
it should reduce object's quality when it is far away
so things speed up , the tree objects in the code are already pretty low as it is

in the example that come with DI show just as many items as what in the demo example of BT but the DI example's have a higher CPS rate

so saying all that there must be some changes to make in the BT example to sped things up and by implementing
DI the CPS should come back up

the space example is rile the closes example I have to work with

If a thought is Just a thought ~ so whats the main thought ?
Morcilla
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2011 11:48
@Matty, thanks for the effort and for the offer
I see Dark Imposters as a great chance to boost FPS in most scenarios.
I gave it a try before releasing my next version of MPL3D, but it is really out of scope to investigate it at this moment.
I'm afraid my project is like 9 months delayed.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your offer, and I might give it another try once I have released. Right now I have no time.
Many thanks all along

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 09:43
@Matty

I'm starting to play around with the examples provided

I know your busy with other things

I've asked this before but I'll ask again

is there a way to turn of showing that the item is being rendered
from what I've seen there is progress bar that shows up on item
I would prefer that it now show up

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Matty H
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 19:21
Quote: "is there a way to turn of showing that the item is being rendered"


Not sure what you mean.

Quote: "progress bar that shows up on item
I would prefer that it now show up"


Not sure about this either, what progress bar? on what item?

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 19:35
@Matty H

ok lets try this again.....

when you move in a 3d world influenced DarkImposters
changes detail on a object when you move closer to it or farther away
so it has to change the detail of the object to gain back CPS

what I have seen is a progress bar in front at the top of the object
as the detail is recalculated this bar shows up

I do not want the bar to show up

dose that help to understand ?

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Matty H
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 19:56 Edited at: 1st Feb 2012 21:36
Quote: "what I have seen is a progress bar in front at the top of the object"


I have no idea what that could be, could you post a screen shot?


EDIT: Some graphics cards have problems wit non 'power of two' textures. This can cause lines around the imposters, this could be what you are talking about.

If you keep texture sizes to 32x32, 64x64 ... 4096x4096 etc and split them up in the same manor 8x8, 16x6 etc then you should not have any problems.

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 21:53
ok I got one

from what I can tell
it looks like it takes picture of the object and stores it
so what I am seeing is the picture with a frame around it

attached is the picture you asked of me

I made some tiny changes for now so the caricature changes direction randomly

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast

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Matty H
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 22:06
From edit in last post:
Quote: "Some graphics cards have problems wit non 'power of two' textures. This can cause lines around the imposters, this could be what you are talking about.

If you keep texture sizes to 32x32, 64x64 ... 4096x4096 etc and split them up in the same manor 8x8, 16x6 etc then you should not have any problems."


That does look like what I was talking about, have you changed some values in that example?

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 22:19
the only thing I've changed was the caricature moment part

I watched the video at the beginning
any posobilty of getting the source code for it ?

specially the one that uses "Blitzwerks Terrain"

I should be able to dig up the objects that I have or create
items to use in it ;O)

my video card is the Nvida GeForce GTS 250 - 1 gb
unless the setting have not been set by the Nvida software
which I think ware the problem is

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 22:25
nope no changed

I upped every setting to max the box stuff still happening

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Matty H
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:34
Does your code look exactly like this?



The source code for the blitz/imposters was in GDK and was very messy, mainly because it had a terrain lightmap part which complicated everything and never even worked that great

I will dig it out if you still want it but it wont help your problem, sticking to the simplest examples would be better until it's sorted.

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 23:50
@Matty H

I'm using the DBP version

I only changed the movement of the caricature

the code below is how mine looks



to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 00:05
@Matty H


humm I changed some thing
the problem seams to have cleaned it self up

I would like to code so guess I will have to do some converting
to get it to working in DBP

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Matty H
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 00:42
It was the 'gCount' variable, 50 * 50 = 2500 imposters, some cards can handle this fine but others are picky about how you split the texture up

64 * 64 should work if your computer can handle that many goblins, you can still have 2500 objects in a texture which can hold 64 * 64 objects.

I will dig that code out for you tomorrow, late here now.

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 01:08
@Matty H

so because of that change it did what it did ?

too much for it to handle

ok thanks

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Matty H
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 11:27
I have attached source code, you will need some understanding of c++. I would not advise trying to replicate this code in any way for DBPro, it would be quicker to do the following yourself.

1. Load a blitz terrain.
2. Load 5-6 tree/rock models.
3. Determine what trees/rocks should be at what heights on terrain, eg tree1 should be instanced for all heights below 50 etc
3. Loop through terrain positions and retrieve height data, for each position at a given resolution:
a. Instance the tree for that height, place at that position with a slight random offset along x and z.
b. Add tree objects to imposter system.


I am currently working on creating a huge Island using the following:
L3DT - Awesome, everyone should get it now, it's free and really easy to use.
Blitz Terrain - Awesome, vital for huge landscapes.
Dark Imposters - Planning on having a huge forest in the centre of the island.
Dark Dynamix - I have a vehicle set up to get you around quicker, adding physics hardly affects frame rate due to being multi-threaded.

When I have done some more I will post a WIP.

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gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 14:57
@Matty H

thanks

this defiantly will take me a bit to get setup

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 23:29
@Matty H

I now have fully active

Microsoft® Visual C++ 2010 Express

how come your built that example in that format ?
why not do DBP version ?

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Matty H
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 00:01
I think I was using VS2008, I have provided a Dark Imposters lib for VS2010, although using GDK with 2008 is less work I think.

I have never used DBPro other than to export my plugins and write examples for them.

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 00:12 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2012 00:13
this is defiantly going to take me some time to

a. find the media to compile it
b. make a DBP version

say that ... if I ever decided to abandon DBP i will have one example to work
with

I down loaded the download er installer the sdk for the kinetic
the dumb thing was windows 7

so I could could not get it

I guess at some point in windows 9 crap which is ware thing are headed
I'll have to abandon windows xp

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Matty H
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 15:42
Like I said above, I would not recommend using that code for anything other than a guide at best. It was thrown together to make a video so was not planned out properly and is very messy.

You would be better using the simpler examples provided and creating your own world from the ground up.

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 16:27
@Matty H

well I have to say this even for some thing thrown together
it looks like a game that could be played

I've found the parts that hold the loading of caricatures
but it seams "Microsoft® Visual C++ 2010 Express"
even after registering it a second time will not let me compile
I think I have and idea why but at this point no on the major to do list

in the video you posted related to the code for that part of the video inaction

was that all there was to the example ?

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 4th Feb 2012 11:15
@Matty H


I have L3DT 11.11 but I have no idea how to get the needed files from it

can you give me a pointer to get the needed image files out ?

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
Matty H
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Posted: 4th Feb 2012 14:35
If you press the 'calc' button and tick everything it generates your texture for you.

Then go to 'file' and export heightfield, select bmp, that's it.

I just use the same detail tile as what comes with blitz terrain.

gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 4th Feb 2012 20:35
@Matty H

thanks


that was the easy part

the rest will be take some time

on the site was japan file
so that's what I will be working with

using "Dark Imposter" for the tree's and plants will be part of it
some how I will have to integrate "Real-time Occlusion Culling"

only one of the example's dose not work for me

one all that is in place then clouds and weather
will finish things up nicely

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 30th Mar 2012 00:31
@Matty H

I bought a windows 7 home 64bit maxed out laptop
only a few odd and end I have to deal with like
having to rebuild some exe as this windows will not give exact info
why it will not work

I just copyed over all files with out doing a reinstall the only quirk
for some silly reason the file association for the .dbpro will not
load up the DBP program but the dba will load up then I have to
tell it to load the .dbpro once its running and away it go's

in the example code you sent me it told me that it needed
the c++ example not posted

FPS Creator Model Pack 19

what was the other model pack used in it ?

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast
gwheycs62egydws
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Posted: 30th Mar 2012 17:20
from the basic test on my new system I can load up
50,000 objects with out any problems
the "Culling" example is ware I ran my test

so it's more than likly I will keep the number for my examples
down to 25,000 well less if I do not need that much showing

i know the max is 1,048,576 and on this system

i should be able to do but I do not know how many out there
now that could do that and with all the other things
i want to to add even my system would eventually say no and crash

it took me a bit but I finally got windows 7 home premium looking and
also acting like windows 98 se as that is what I find the quickest and
east to use, i do not think windows 7 and the new windows 8 were
made for people like me

but at least now I can get down to business and move forward

to move side ways - is to move forward
Since a Strait line gets thin fast

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