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On taking the advice of getting to know DBP by starting simple whats a good style of game to begin with?

I was thinking maybe an arcade style shooter. You know maybe something simple like where the screen scrolls, and people run around shooting at you, etc. All you have is a cross hair to blast at them with.

Then maybe moving up to something similar but using 3D instead. Maybe something like "Time Crisis" without the quarters, and time limits.

Just trying to find a good way to work my way up to "Grim Future". Which is an RPG/FPS. I was going to try to do something else, but I think I found a way to make it semi-rpg. I just really like the theme, and plot.

Also something I didn't think about before. As I've looked around at a lot of different game design software. Seems some have a collision problem with small fast moving objects like bullets.
Namely anything over about 250 meters per second. Which I'm praying DBP doesn't have a problem with. As in all reality that is not even as fast as a .45 ACP out of a 1911 .45 pistol (WWII US sidearm if you don't recognise the gun name).

I just can't stand shooters where the bullets fly slowly. Theoretically at about 250 yards or less by the time you hear you rifle go "bang" the round has already struck it's target.
Even at 100 yards with my 9mm Taurus PT99 there's only a fraction of a second's delay before you can hear the round impact the bullet stop/hill.

Also how difficult is it to make DBP do bullet physics? Or not really physics, but simply speed, and maybe use some sort of pre-plotted trajectory. Or say add damage modifiers to the round based on distance. Say it does 45 damage could you just use some sort of variable. My syntax is probably lousy and rusty but anyway just for an idea...

if
a >= 200 //A being a bullets distance from it's point of origin
then
d = d - 10 //d is for damage so if a is >= 200 meters from it's point of origin then it would subtract 10 from it's damage.

endif

Something like that anyway. I know my syntax sucks and I'm rusty and using C++ comment lines probably doesn't help much. Just trying to get some ideas.

text games help with arrays...

2d game with a cross hair is not the same as a 3d game with a cross hairs.

3d physics for shooting 3d usually require a very fancy snippet, I always keep my eyes peeled for a good one to play with and test.

basic 3d physics(gravity) is usually not that difficult.

Well, you use object intersect etc, or other collision methods - but you don't check a collision as such, you'd check the entire path of the bullet in one go - sorta like an instant hit. All you need to do is stagger the bullets, for example you might be constantly firing, so you'd calculate a bullets trajectory, then show an effect for the collision point of the last bullet, then sync. This would give a better impression of bullets because there'll be a little delay, it will feel like the bullets are really fast because there's only about 1/50th/sec between firing and hitting a target.

As a guide though, how long in miliseconds would it take a 9mm bullet firing from a standard handgun to travel 100 metres? (just thinking about realism, or at least mock realism for my current project).


Van-B

Ah thats easy math. Your average 9mm pistol with standard ammunition (Not +P or +P+ or subsonic) is travelling at approx 1100-1200fps. Approx 300 feet make 100 meters (not exact but meters and yards are close). That's 1/4 of 1200 feet thus it takes the round 1/4th of a second to reach that point.
Which is like 250 milliseconds. Of course the round drops a good bit out of a 9mm pistol at that range.

Firearms are like my specialty. I own many and I've been shooting them since I was 6 years old. So if you have any other "realism" questions feel free to ask. Wether it conscerns damage profiles, how various rounds affect body armor, and how wearing body armor changes the rounds effect on a person.

All my info either comes from personnal experience or reliable sources with sound testing methods.
For example notice how most games have an M-16, or M-4's accuracy drastically reduce in rapid fire?
That's total junk. A 6 year old coul handle a M-16 with little problem, and a grown man could hold it on a man sized target at 200 yards full auto. It doesn't even qualify as "kicking" it's more like the thing vibrates. It's due to the small weight of the round, the system, ergonomics, and they all have a flash hider/muzzlebreak on the barrel.
I've got a CETME (it's what H&K copied to make the infamous G3) with a muzzle break. It's louder than anything, but I can rapid fire a full 20 round mag at 100 yards and keep all 20 rounds in a 12" group or better. Take the muzzlebreak off it sounds quieter (it's not just a frequency change) but every time you pull the trigger the barrel bucks up half a foot.

The AK-47 has a little more recoil than a M-16 and the AK-74 is about the same. In fact AKM's (True AK-47's) have a special muzzle break that not only helps in recoil, but is offset at an angle to help counter it's tendancy to rise up and to the left.

That's normally my biggest peeve with most FPS games. The weapons are wrong, round velocity is wrong, accuracy is wrong in full auto. Either movement has no affect on accuracy or too much. Cyclic rates are all wrong big time also. A M-16 will empty a 30 round mag in under 1 second. The AK a little slower but still under 1 second. Something like an Uzi will spit a mag out like it's just about 1 round. You can't even hear a pause between rounds on a UZI. It's just like BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRPPP!
In AK's it's a ear trick as you only hear every other round or so. Sort of like how at certain speeds car rims look like they spin backwards.

Ok I'm way off topic on my own thread lol. Anyway like I said if you have any question just ask, and you'll probably get more than you want to know.

Of course all that said you can get so far into "virtual realism" that it becomes less realistic. Like in "America's Army" they should have left out the breathing. I'm a Marine Corp expert marksman, and was top shooter of the Corp (In JROTC). I can controll my breathing, and my sights don't bob up and down constantly. In fact the ONLY time you even notice your breathing is when in the off-hand (standing up) position.

So there's a case of added realism thats unrealistic. Not true for scopes though as any time you magnify your view your movements are magnified. Yet even still a good shooter can steady a scope to where it's no longer noticable. I like a nice median where the scopes bobs around for a second before it steadies, and does so after every shot.

Or like the jumping thing I hate FPS games where people hop around like rabbits. They jump about the right height for an average in shape person. Just not an average in shape person carrying a 6lb weapon, and another 50+lbs of ammo, grenades, body armor, etc.

One Word: Wow.

Zen_Budha. I think your my new best friend. Guns. Me like. My obsession. Or special interest rather.

I draw guns really, but I always impress my friends with my vast knowledge of weaponry and small arms. Ive never fired one (UK law, which can only be a good thing) and my dad is hoping to get an air rifle and go shooting like he used to. But you need permits and lisences these days, with the amount of idiots who abuse them. Just a couple of weeks back a girl was shot in the face round here, but she was OK luckily.

But the big gun explanation was cool. Lots of detail.

Personal fave : Beretta M92F 9mm.

To answer the title question, Try the order vidio games were developed.

Start with "PONG" the whole game consists of two sprites (for single player version" and a scoring system.

Next try "SPACE INVADERS" this should be a natural step.

then work your way to "1942" although it will be "2042" if you are working by yourself

Cool! - thanks for all the info! - It's funny how you play a game with supposed realism, and just assume that it's accurate!. I've never used anything more dangerous than an air rifle, but I certainly can't remember hearing my breathing and swaying side to side while shooting cans in the back garden.

My game is sorta comical, because the men are fighting B-Movie style aliens, but I'm making the mechanics, like the weapon handling as realistic as I can. From what you've said, firing a bullet every frame at 50fps would probably work out ok realistically, but that'd be a drag on ammo and frame rate I reckon, especially if the collision detection on the bullets is not super fast. I reckon I'd like to have the guy firing about as fast as I can tap on my desk with 2 fingers, probably about 10 rounds per second per gun, I'll probably do a R6 style firing rate changer as well though.

I don't suppose you have any free firing sound effects you could let us use do you? - It'd be quite cool to get the sounds right for a change - it's usually a case of scouring rap CD's or trampling through all the crap sounds on the web.


Van-B

perhaps Zen... however perfectly realistic FPS games wouldn't get past the Ratings Boards.

although it is annoying that games are entirely accurate, the only game i've played where you have to worry about the weapons recoil is Quake2 (never played any others where its mattered)

which personally i find is worrying when a developer will think about about some guys guts falling all over the floor over how acurate your weaponry is. Ofcourse without FFB you can't really simulate it very well, but still the point is there that they just don't make the effort ... they don't even balance the weapons simply put in famous names.

Those Tom Clancy squad-based games seem like they are pretty accurate with their guns. Ever play them, Zen?

As far as your question, don't think about writing a game, so much as "making a ship fly around and shoot" or "making a guy walk around and jump and maybe pick up something." I'd work on the pieces just to get the hang of it. Let your first game write itself. You just work out the details.

Ok well on a semi-auto weapon with a so-so trigger your average person can manage anywhere from 6-10 rounds per second. I know that from using counters with paintball guns. A fine tuned mechanical trigger you can get 12+ if you have a strong quick finger. Yet that's custom stuff. For accuracy though with a real firearm about 2 rounds per second is shooting fast with a handgun. A pro probably 3 or 4 rounds in a second. I'm a rifle guy, and not great with pistols although I own a few.
You could either cap their semi-auto fire at 10 rounds per second, and then accuracy after the first shot takes a significant drop. Then make it to where if they fire faster than 3 or 4 rounds per second the weapon becomes really innacurate, and starts climbing upwards.
Caliber makes a big difference too. A 9mm is one thing, but a .45 is quite another. Big caliber revolves have heavy triggers as well, and buck like there's no tomorrow. They are however more accurate (due to tighter weapon tolerances), and balance. More powerfull also pound for pound since none of the bullets energy is used to recock the mechanism.

As far as ammo goes I wouldn't even put an ammo counter in game. Just a magazine counter. They either count rounds or reload when it doesn't go bang anymore. Also have it keep track of magazines, and their ammo. Like if the player has 7 magazines, and fires 15 rounds, and reloads. He would still have 7 magazines, but when he got down to his last one it would only have 15 rounds left in it.
Versus where it seems you just keep dumping ammo into your firearm.

On the bullet collision problem I would hate to think DBP has a problem handling that many rounds. I mean if it does it eliminates the possibility of any sort of realistic machinegun.
Or actually just did some figuring of cyclic rates and I'm wrong. An AK-47 has about an 800rpm cyclic rate which equates to a little over 13 rounds per second. I also don't think the M-4 or modern M-16A2's cycle that fast either. The original M-16 A1 had an atrocious cyclic rate. Now they changed them around a bit to slow down the cyclic rate.
The AK's cyclic rate is naturally that way though since the round travels halfway down the barrel before passing the gas block, and recocking the mechanism. Which involves a piston sliding back pushing the bolt back, and the spring ramming it back forward before the next round is fired.

All modern semi auto pistols though are straight blowback with only a few exceptions. Such as the CZ-52 (kicks rear I personnaly own one) which is a delayed blowback roller locking pistol, and some AK pistols, and M-4 pistols.

So I'd say if you can manage 15 rounds per second without any collision problems your good to go on realism for the most part. Short of Uzi's, Mico-uzi's, Mac-10's, MG-42's, SAW's, PKM's, and maybe a few others.
Even if you did use them and they were a little off it would be ok. I don't dog on games unless they get way too unrealistic. I mean if it's called Vietnam I expect realistic weapons. If it's called Halo well you get the picture lol.

Personnaly if you can get the fire rate close, accuracy realisticm and get damage close (it's an art not a science lol) your good to cook.
From what you said above I think you have the fire rate pretty close. Someone would have to some serious disecting to figure out "Oh look it's off 3 rounds per second" anyway. So close counts in fire rate.

In accuracy I say I typically see this problem with most FPS. Pistols are WAY too accurate. Unless it's a CZ-52 anything out past 50 meters your lobbing rounds at. A excellent marksman on a bench rest can get 2.5 inch diameter groups at 50 meters. Some can even do it free hand, but to give you an idea military pistol qualifications are 25 meter targets. A average pistol shooter in rapid fire (about 2-4 rounds per second) can keep most of his rounds on a silhouette the size of a man from the waist up at that range.
"Assault rifles" (A term I hate as gun grabbers apply it to weapons that do not meet the military definition of assault rifle) like AK-47's, M-16's are extremely low recoil. At 100 meters even full auto there's no reason a average shooter cannot put 30 rounds into a target.
M-16's are high precision weapons and shooting for accuracy can touch holes at 100 meters. AK's on the other hand shoot about a 4-5" group at 100 yards. Yet M-16's jam if dirty, are sensitive to temperature changes, and a bend magazine lip will cause it to jam.
AK-47's, 74's, 103's, 101's, etc (All Kalishnakov's) have much looser tolerances. Thus they aren't as accurate have poor sights compared to an M-16, but they will operate under any conditions reliably. Heck you can literally take the top cover off the receiver, and pour sand into the weapon. Put the top cover back on, and it will fire without a hitch. Even if it's rusty, bent (except the barrel of course) wet. Heck it'll even fire underwater.

The hard part is damage and is impossible to get accurate.
If a person gets hit in the heart they can still function for up to a minute. Most people don't realise that, but it's a fact. Just like if you chop off a guys head he can still see, think, and hear for 10 seconds.
Still though most don't go a minute they just drop. So the heart and the head kills one shot. With someone's adrenaline pumping though hitting them anywhere else won't. Short of the spine.
Yet the body is full of fluid (75% water if you took biology). It's like a water balloon, and when a roun goes through it at high velocities it causes a shock wave (of realy big proportions) to go through the entire body. So enough of that and their brain goes into shutdown mode, and they pass out and die. The brain knows the body is hurt which means pain and turns the lights out.
Thats why 6 or so rounds into the body will take someone down without hitting the heart, brain, or spine.

to be honest guns are really innefective at killing people. They're good at wounding and thats why people who get shot in the civilian world tend to survive. About 90% of them to be exact if they get medical attention. In the combat zone it drops drastically to 75% now days, and was WAY less back before Vietnam and the helicopter.
Even in Vietnam about 1 in 3 people who were shot died. Actually more like 1 in 5 if you factor in those who stepped on landmines, were hit by mortors, etc.

So like I said damage is darn near impossible to get right. In fact being wrong makes it right. You can take 3 people, line them up, and shoot them all in the same place. They will all die at different times.

Just some things though getting shot feels like being stung by a bee. You skin has all the pain sensors so the only areas that hurt are the edge of the entry hole, and the edge of the exit hole.
I know a guy who was hunting, and got shot in the back with a .30-06 (really high powered rifle capable of hitting targets at 800+ meters)
He said it felt like a bee had stung him in his lower back while he was climbing up in his deer stand.
He looked down, and his guts were laying on the ground. He stepped back down, scooped them back into the his stomach cavity, and went to his truck to get his cell phone.
I have a police friend who was shot 3 times by a guy on crack with a .38 revolver (it'll bounce off a steel hubcab at 100 feet it's WEAK). He went down, but in the process he shot the guy 9 times with a 9mm glock. Just about everywhere in the upper body but the head or the heart, or spine.
The guy then took off running (after being shot 9 times) and headed up 3 flights of stairs. Another officer arrived on scene and grabbed his M1 Garand from his truck, and shot the man in back in his upper torso which dropped him. It's a .30-06 and in the chest cavity it's pretty much all over.

So anywy hopefully that'll give you some idea's and info to go by.

Oh hate to post again but to answer a question that was asked, and I missed.

I've played virtually every FPS game since the original "Castle Wolfenstein". I've been gaming since the C64 days, and still have one in the closet along with an Amiga 500 lol.

I personnaly think I'm going to take to game writing like a duck in water. I've done some programming before, and I've got lot's of ideas. Not game ideas, but ideas on how to make code do what I want.

The Clancy games are very accurate on their weapons. All except damage, and accuracy. Fire rate, modelling, caliber, etc are all correct though. I used to love the Nato weapons mod for the original Rainbow Six.

As far as sound goes I wish I had a portable recorder that I could take to the range with me. Here's a good idea though make their ears ring! In combat noboy wears hearing protection as they can't hear the officers yelling at them if they do. Just about every weapon especially semi-auto, and full auto weapons will make your ears rings.

Most of all keep Fun #1, try to get everything as accurate as you can. 99% of the gamers out there won't know the difference. SOFII had a really good damage model considering the body armor. Yet somebody still made a "realism" mod that makes it unrealistic. People just think shooting someone 2 or 3 times anywhere should drop them.

Some of the things that made it good where the fact that armor and health went down at the same time. Lots of time you would die before your armor was gone. Wearing body armor and getting shot with most weapons is like letting someone beat you in the chest with a big ball peen hammer.
One shot to head killed naturally, but otherwise it took about 6 rounds to the body to drop someone. Half that without body armor. Limbs took more before they would die. Well realistically they would have to bleed to death but enough rounds and missing an arm in combat they might as well be dead.
The sniper rifle was a 2 shot to the body or 1 to the head deal. (.308 caliber G3 very powerfull)
The M-60 was buggered all to heck though. The pistols were too powerfull and had movie accuracy. (100 yard head shots on moving targets stuff).

Yet it was still good.

All this gun talk has given me the urge to post my model of a hybrid AK-103/Galil

This is a custom weapon and only one is in existance lol. It's actually a civilian SAR-3 (.223) AK-74 with .22 Galil stocks, and some aftermarket parts.

jesus... those posts put mine to shame someone is extremely passionate about his weapons to a scary level lol

dbp's collision isn't really the problem for handeling round - actually what you have to do is determine if the shot will possible hit or not. If there is the possibility then you check collision when object is close enough.

you really can't check several hundred rounds shot into a guy all for collision, your processor just couldn't take it with everything else needed going on.

That makes good sense Raven. Only checking the ones that will possibly hit. Yet how would you have bullet effects like rounds hitting inanimate objects?
Yeah I am passionate somewhat about my guns. I've been into them since I was 5 years old, and my father let me shoot a British .303 Enfield from WWII. I especially like old military weapons, and they make up 90% of my collection. Such as WWII bolt action rifles from Russia, Germany, Switzerland, Turkey, England, and the US.
It's really a great hobby. I bought a WWII Mosin Nagant (like off enemy at the gates) for $75. Made in 1942 in Hungary actually, and a 1944 Turkish Mauser which is a copy of a WWII German Mauser simply it's longer.
I compete in long range military bolt action rifle competitions with the NRA. We shoot at targets from 100-400 meters open sights with 50+ year old rifles.
Then I hang out on gun forums, and I meet a lot of cops, veterens, etc. I pick up a little here, and there on solid knowledge. Most of the stuff I know though you won't find on the internet.
I couldn't imagine not owning a firearm personnaly. I carry a pistol with me wherever I go, and I have no fear of getting lost in a bad part of town or breaking down. Or getting robbed walking down a dark alley. I practice therefore there's no punk criminal out there who can match me. I regularly out shoot veterans, cops, and everyone else at the shooting range. It's not a natural talent most people simply haven't been shooting as long, and as much as I have.
Plus I live in an area where we have a total of maybe 5 cop cars not counting the highway patrol.
Needless to say when I read the weekly police report in the paper it consists, or drugs, shoplifting, and DUI's. Young teenage girls go jogging down the streets at night without fear. We have no gangs, or anything like that.
Yes I'm southern, and I love the country. If you swapped all the city people with all the country people you would simply have crime free cities, and crime in the country.
Like we had a gang here once and they took over the local hangout. Legally the cops couldn't touch them, but they were a nuisance. So one night about 5 truck loads of guys drove into the parking lot and beat the living snot out of them. We haven't had a gang since. The cops just sat right there watching, and did nothing.

Thanks for all that info Zen, much appreciated .

My game is more top down Cannon Fodder style, I'm sure you'll have played Cannon Fodder on the Amiga, so aiming might not be as much of a problem - I mean you'll aim with the mouse, so if the player clicks on a guys head, I only really need to check the bullets path for collisions, and add some physics depending on the characters skill, there'll be like snipers, medics, grunts etc - but like in Cannon Fodder, the guys will improve with practice.

I've only made one weapon so far, It's sorta like an M16, but I really need to redo the texture map - going for low poly and a low res texture map is not ideal when making weapons :/, your rifle puts it to shame.


Van-B

When doing an M-16 you can get away with an all black texture with some highlighs. Maybe add a little glossiness to it, but that's about it. They're just black from one end to the other unless you can see the bolt which should be a bright metal color. Not chrome more like stainless.
I definitely played a lot of Cannon Fodder. Also it just takes a little work to get poly's down low. That AK-Galil model is right at 258 poly's, and it uses a compressed .jpg texture.
In fact none of my models above go over 700 poly's, and most optomise down to around 500 or less.
Biggest thing I've found on keeping poly's down is to avoid curves. Then optomising is simply a matter of cutting out everything they don't see. I've seen high-poly bad looking models, and models that look way better than mine at the same or less poly's.

Yeah, polycounts are not really a problem for me with weapons, learned the hard way - I use rhino which is a NURBS modeller, so you'd sorta model a gun from a block of wood, sounds cool but the polycounts were scary, like 1100 polys for a S&W 686 revolver!. My M16 alike is only about 200 polys, it uses transparent textures though which can really help when it comes to tiny details like triggers and sights.

Again, thanks for your valuable insights.


Van-B

Van B,
I keep meaning to ask. Are you a AM Modeler? I like the alien's.

Guyon,
Nah, they're stars of 30 minute animations, they're insanely funny .


Van-B

Well I started playing with the demo today. DUH! Why not check out the demo before ordering lol.
Anyway I'm pretty confused already. I went through the tutorials, and did the little "Now you try to make it..." things. I had no problems with that stuff.
Yet my mind has it's own way of working. Now I understand generating the matrix size, and creating random 3D terrain.

I even get the matrix size thing with 10000, 1000, 25, 25 and all that. However since there's no way of seeing the matrix (that I know of) I have no clue about how to go about putting things into the matrix. Other than randomly of course.
I didn't see a tutorial or anything really explaining it either. Then I downloaded some code snippet for a Space Invaders type game.

I saw all of this code that was like big number, big number, big number, bignumber, big number, big number, big number

And several lines of that sort of mayhem and like to have had a heart attack. That and compared to the scripting editor I used to use DarkBasic is well different. I would say it flat out sucks, but thats not fair. All interfaces are different. However it's more of like a DOS GUI than a windows GUI style.
It took me longer to figure out how to cut and paste than it did for me to change the sky color, change camera speed, and make it warp the 3D terrain with a single key press.
That is right after I wrapped my head around the simplicity and found it wasn't necessary to use a bunch of looping variables. Although it did make for some interesting terrain changes.

Zen for the wall/object hits its just an LOS ... there really isn't any point in it being 100% accurate, all you do is along the LOS you check if it is close enough to the player to hit ... if not you then simply put the weapon effect on the first object that intersects with the LOS

save alot of calculation - oki so its not accurate, but it gets the job done

Space Invaders hands down.

I started it three days ago after coding for a two weeks and I am almost done.

I have infinite levels programmed with a start-up and loading screen, sfx, and points. I just want to put a high scores table and do a few touch ups and I am done.

It requires just some basic knowlage and needs very little physics or math related things that would be challenging for a beginner.

I would suggest it as it is also pretty fun for how easy it is.

I did space invaders as my first game in basic (not darkbasic though). It was pretty cool, I did a menu screen and everything (gasp! ).

Ok well after going through all the tutorials, and reading all the examples, and going through all the commands. I think I'm starting to grasp DarkBasic very well. I've basically read every single thing that comes with the demo.
It seems odd though that the tutorials contain code the examples do not. Such as I went through all the 3D animation code, and nowhere did I come across the animation code contained in the 3D walk around tutorials. You know where it plays the animation and loops it depending on what keys are pressed.
Anyway maybe too much to bite off, but I got the urge to try writing a 3D fighting game. Nothing fancy just a couple of 3D Stick men with a fixed camera view, and basic moves. Now I just need to create a couple of stick fighters, and animate them.
I figure one will be "Wild Stick" and the other "Popsicle stick" I'll model them so their limbs etc resemble certain kinds of sticks like that.

That's a lot more than it seems I know so I'll start simple. Like making a 3D stickman model punch, kick, jump, and crouch. I've already made one walk around.

Just a question though are using sub routines a bad idea? I mean like writing a sub routine for attacks. Or rather the Gosub command. That way at certin times I could right just one chunk of code, and have it call it when needed.