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Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 1st Jun 2011 13:47


A new plugin is available for DarkBASIC Professional.

Dark Imposters provides a mechanism whereby a vast amount of objects can be drawn on screen while keeping the frame rate high.

Imposters are 2D quads, textured with an image of the object they represent. This means you get all the detail without rendering all the polygons which will help your game run at a much faster speed.



For more details please check the product page: http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2293
baxslash
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Posted: 1st Jun 2011 13:58 Edited at: 1st Jun 2011 15:46
New toys...

Fantastic. Well done matty!

EDIT: I'm getting the "Product Unknown" error when I try my activation key. I'm currently running version 1.077 of DBP (checked) , is this a problem?



Matty H
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Posted: 1st Jun 2011 16:57 Edited at: 1st Jun 2011 16:58
Hi baxslash, thanks for buying.

You need to update to the latest version of DBPro here:
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2000&page=upgrade7-61
If you have any questions/problems just post them here or email me, seems there are couple of small issues with the DBPro examples, I will redo them today and post the code here

baxslash
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Posted: 1st Jun 2011 17:35
That did it...

Awesome. Love the asteroid demo. I never thought I'd see that many asteroids in a DBP game, it gives a really epic feel to a simple demo of your plugin. Just fantastic.

Thanks Matty and TGC for this truly excellent plugin

I think it might be time for an epic zombie killing fest... after a few tests on the netbook!

Matty H
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Posted: 1st Jun 2011 23:20
Thanks for your kind comments baxslash, I would be interested to know how you get on using it on a netbook. After you mentioned netbooks I started looking into maximum texture sizes for different machines.

I don't think using large textures has any/much effect on performance, so the bigger the better in general. I'm not sure if DBPro has a way of getting this statistic for you, if it does not then I will add this command to Dark Imposters.

My Laptop has a maximum texture of 8192 x 8192, but I presume a netbook might be smaller. Anyway, having a command to query this should come in useful.

baxslash
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Posted: 1st Jun 2011 23:29
I'll send you an email with some details when I've tested it. I have a feeling the maximum texture size was 4096x4096 on mine but I might be remembering it wrong...

I'm just really glad I managed to get a copy of this as finances have taken a bit of a downward turn recently!

Kezzla
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2011 00:46
This is really cool!
I have a greed for trees that this plugin will feed nicely.
I'm getting it next pay.
awsome!

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
Tapewormz
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2011 10:10 Edited at: 3rd Jun 2011 10:12
This plugin is great. This along with Blitzwerks Terrain feels complete as a package. I don't know about the name though, Dark Imposters seems sort of silly. I'd have thought Dark Instancing or Dark Instance would have been more appropriate. Regardless, It's a great plugin and I'm going to put in an order.
JosephB
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Posted: 6th Jun 2011 15:16
Reading a few messages shows that Dark Imposters requires DBPro 7.61. I have Windows 7 SP1 on my computers and use DBPro 7.7r7 to compile the code. Does anyone know if DBPro 7.61 will compile within Windows 7 SP1?

Thanks,
trogdor
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Posted: 6th Jun 2011 23:00
Just got the demo, and had to buy right away

I'm very pleased with the increased frame rate. It doubled my game fps.

Initial testing on ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro, I get bounding boxes on the 2d sprites, dont know why.



I'll test on nVidia tonight and see.

Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, where the heck is the ceiling.
Matty H
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Posted: 6th Jun 2011 23:22
Quote: "Does anyone know if DBPro 7.61 will compile within Windows 7 SP1?"


I'm not sure, I can't test as I dont have Windows 7, hopefully someone will pop in with an answer.

I presume that any new versions/betas will recognise Dark Imposters without any issues. At the moment I only know that 7.61 will work for sure.


@trogdur
Thanks for the screenies, someone else mentioned this a while back but I never seen a screenshot. Let me know how you get on with the nVidia card.

Could you also provide me with as much info as possible, you mention that you are happy with it in your game, does this mean this problem does not always happen?

Also, could you save the group texture to file when you get the problem and post it please, could provide a clue.

I presume those screenies are from the demo executables you can download on the product page?

If anyone else gets this issue could you post info on your computer specs and maybe a screenie.

I'm hoping it might just be the texture mode, I will add commands to set to different texture modes.

Thanks.

trogdor
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Posted: 7th Jun 2011 05:25
I'm using the darki mposrters demos so all have the source

here's one test machine
nVidia GeForce 7800GS
Win XP Pro SP3
AMD Athlon XP 1800+
1.49 GHz, 1.25GB RAM

I saved texture group 1 and you can see the grid.

I will test on Windows 7 machine with newer nVidia.

Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, where the heck is the ceiling.
Tapewormz
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Posted: 7th Jun 2011 15:34 Edited at: 7th Jun 2011 15:39
Um, "Product Unknown". I've installed the latest update released June 1st and removed the addon and reinstalled it and I get the same message.

Edit: Yeah this is definitely not working for me. I've most certainly installed update 7.61 but it doesn't even show up in the list of modules (with or without the addon installed).
Matty H
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Posted: 7th Jun 2011 15:56
@Tapewormz - Hmm, people have had this issue, but because they are not using the June 1st release of DBPro, you are the first to get this issue while using the correct version.

I can only suggest to perhaps try installing again, try whatever you can think of, if you can't fix it then I will email Mike and see if he has any ideas.

@trogdor
Thanks for all the info, I think there are a few issues here. I think there may be an overall driver/texture mode issue, I will come back to that, in the meanwhile, I too had issues with this demo and solved them by doing the following:

Change the code in the demo to this:

And place your camera at 0, 0, 0
I have attached an image of what I get, alot better.

What is happening is the object bounds are not setup very well automatically, setting them up yourself helps. Also, if an object is really far away from the camera and relatively small, it will draw to texture really small or not at all, I don't see this as a big issue right now as it may be that these objects are so far away they would not be visible anyway, without imposters.

You are free to spread your objects out again and move the camera, I just did that to show that it is really small/distant objects that cause small/empty imposters.

Let me know if this improves things for you, I was getting some of the issues you highlighted with your image but I was not getting the white lines along the edges, so that may not have gone away, I would appreciate a new image if possible, thanks.

Tapewormz
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Posted: 7th Jun 2011 16:52
@Matty H

I recovered my HD from a clean image and started installing DBP and all my modules and this time it worked. I blame Windows 7.
Matty H
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Posted: 7th Jun 2011 20:23
@Tapewormz - Glad you got that sorted.

@trogdor - Some of what I said turned out to be incorrect, the object bounds are not causing the issue, the issue is the distance of the object from the camera, the further away the object the less accurate the texture becomes, you start to get those holes in the objects etc.

I know this because I have just added some code which moves the camera closer to each object before creating the imposter and then moves it back again and it worked fine, even with the automatic bounds(attached), these objects are very far from the camera.

So, when I have an update ready I will have a command which allows for this camera movement if needed.

If you could run it with the code I posted earlier where the objects are not far away, then post the texture it creates, then I can see whether it is the object distance also causing the white line artifacts. Although I think that may be another issue to do with what graphics card you are running on, I'll have to wait and see what happens on your machine as I can't replicate those white artifacts.

Thanks for your help on this matter

trogdor
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Posted: 8th Jun 2011 03:38 Edited at: 8th Jun 2011 03:41
The newer code made more white boxes around the objects



and here is the resulting texture

[EDIT] I'll test on other cards and OS later this week.

Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, where the heck is the ceiling.
Tapewormz
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Posted: 8th Jun 2011 05:46
Looks like the texture isn't completely covering the plane. I don't get output like that when I run that example. I have a 9800m GTS.
BatVink
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Posted: 8th Jun 2011 12:40
Box2D had a similar issue when the image had an odd number of lines. Maybe this is a similar problem?

Matty H
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Posted: 8th Jun 2011 15:55
@Tapewormz - This was my first thought, but if you look at the texture in the attachment then you see the white lines are there even before the imposter gets textured.

I too do not get these white lines.

@BatVink - I am now thinking along these lines, floating point errors etc.

@trogdor - Thanks for your time on this, I have already identified and fixed an issue but I had an idea the white lines was another issue.

They are very regular on the texture, every five imposters, which gives me an idea. Could you try creating different numbers of asteroids as see if the white lines go?

That texture is 2048 * 2048, dividing it up into 40 * 40 imposters may cause the issue, could you maybe try 32 * 32, 16 * 16 etc and see if we get any different results. If the white lines remain then perhaps make a note of how big the white line squares are, if you know what I mean, they are currently 5 * 5 asteroids.

Thanks again for all your help, its pretty important I get this sorted as even people without the issue may find their games looking odd on certain machines.

trogdor
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Posted: 9th Jun 2011 00:13
@Matty H
I've done more testing

I tried my top machine

Dell Precision T3500
Ram: 12 GB
OS: 64-Bit Windows 7
Hard Drive: 500GB
1st Drive Bay: DVD
2nd Drive Bay: DVD-RW
Graphics Card: Quadro 2000
Sound Card: Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi

and ran the original demo and it did not have any issue

I went to my second machine

Dell OptiPlex 755
Ram: 3.25 GB
OS: 32-Bit Windows XP Pro SP3
Hard Drive: 320GB
1st Drive Bay: DVD-RW
Graphics Card: ATI Radeon HD 2400 Pro
Sound Card: SoundMAX HD Audio

This one showed the white lines. so I updated the code and still like my older nVidia machine I got white lines.

I changed the aCount from 40 to 32 like you've suggested and it worked!!! no white lines.

I will try on my older nVidia tonight.

Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, where the heck is the ceiling.
Matty H
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Posted: 9th Jun 2011 01:09
Quote: "I changed the aCount from 40 to 32 like you've suggested and it worked!!! no white lines."


Great news, can't thank you enough for testing this for me.

I'm pretty sure the fix is to try and be sure that when you split up your texture, the amount of imposters along the u coordinate is a factor of the texture width, the amount of imposters along the v coordinate is a factor of the texture height. I'm not 100% sure why just yet but I will keep looking into it.

So a texture of 1024 x 1024 may be best split like one of the following:
1 * 1
2 * 2
4 * 4
8 * 8
16 * 16
32 * 32

I still need to update because of the distant imposter issue but I wanted to sort this out first.

Thanks again.

trogdor
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Posted: 9th Jun 2011 04:37
I tested on my old nVidia and sure enough the 16, 32, and 64 work fine without lines. any other numbers 40, 50, 60 cause lines...

another thing I noticed when I got to 64 was some imposters were pixelated and some looked fine. why is that?



also when flying towards the imposters some fly by smooth and some pop back. Is the popping when it switch from sprite to the 3d object?

Last night I lay in bed looking up at the stars in the sky and I thought to myself, where the heck is the ceiling.
Matty H
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Posted: 9th Jun 2011 16:36
Quote: "another thing I noticed when I got to 64 was some imposters were pixelated and some looked fine. why is that?"


The more objects/imposters you pack onto one texture the more you will lose resolution. You can increase the texture size or make another group.

Quote: "also when flying towards the imposters some fly by smooth and some pop back."


Each group is set to regenerate a maximum of 25 imposters per loop, so with so many objects there will be some that have not been recently regenerated.

You can change all these values, adjust the imposter distance and resolution until the imposters are not noticable.

BillR
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Posted: 11th Jun 2011 13:08
wow, I'm getting "Product Unknown" message when I try to activate Dark Imposters.

Win 7 64bit
HP dv7-3085dx core i7 laptop
Latest DBPro 1.077 (dbpro_upgrade_7_7_RC7) installed
Tons of other expansion packs installed, never had this problem before.
I have tried several times, same thing each time
I tried modifying Dark Imposters install, repairing, removing, reinstalling, same thing.
Any ideas?
Matty H
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Posted: 11th Jun 2011 17:01 Edited at: 11th Jun 2011 17:01
You need the latest update(June 1st), here:
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2000&page=upgrade7-61
This is the latest although I think there are betas with highter version numbers.

BillR
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Posted: 11th Jun 2011 22:13
@Matty H - Thanks that fixed it!

Seems odd that the beta versions with higher version numbers have a problem, just a little confusing.
Scene Commander
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Posted: 14th Jun 2011 19:20
I can confirm that RC7 is not compatible and does not recognise the expansion. This is unfortunate as I require RC7 to compile the FPSC source. So it's either FPSC source or using Dark Imposters.

Any idea when this might be addressed?

http://jimjamsgames.yolasite.com
Matty H
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Posted: 15th Jun 2011 16:20
@Scene Commander - I will make a bit of a guess here and presume that anything that is released after June 1st, whether it be beta or otherwise, will work with Dark Imposters.

So its probably just a matter of waiting for the next beta to become an official release.

They update the compiler when a new plugin is released, but they update from the last stable version, thats how I understand it anyway

Scene Commander
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Posted: 16th Jun 2011 11:49
@Matty H

Thanks for reply. I guess we'll just have to wait then..

http://jimjamsgames.yolasite.com
Jimmanator
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Posted: 17th Jun 2011 03:09
Awesome!

This is exactly what I need!

I have two questions:
1. Will it work good with larger objects like buildings.
2. Will it work with the command : set cameras to stereoscopic.
anwserman
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Posted: 17th Jun 2011 09:22
Oooh. This looks interesting. Prolly not needed for my current project, but might be useful eventually nonetheless
Matty H
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Posted: 17th Jun 2011 17:09
Quote: "1. Will it work good with larger objects like buildings."


Yes, you just use higher resolution textures for large objects.


Quote: "2. Will it work with the command : set cameras to stereoscopic."


I'm not sure, I will have to try that when I get the chance, it depends on how stereoscopic works, I don't know much about it.

Olby
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Posted: 18th Jun 2011 01:58
Hey Matty,

Could you please post current commands set? Of particular interest to me is a command which lets you know current state of the imposter (full object vs. imposter). Is there something like this?

Thanks.

ACER Aspire 5920G: Core2Duo 2.2GHZ, 2GB, GeForce 8600M GT 1280MB, Windows Vista Ultimate SP1, DBPro 7.5 + PureGDK 2.0b
Matty H
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Posted: 18th Jun 2011 17:03
Current commands:


@Olby - You posted at a good time, I was just working on the update which should be available next week.

I have added the following commands for the update:


It also seems that IMP IMPOSTER GET ACTIVE was returning just what you were after when it should not
It is now fixed, IMP GET ACTIVE returns whether the imposter has been removed from the scene or not, and IMP IS IMPOSTER will return whether the object is currently an object or an imposter

Olby
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Posted: 18th Jun 2011 22:29
Sounds good! Definitely buying this to speed up my current developments. Hopefully I will be able to integrate it with PureGDK easily.

ACER Aspire 5920G: Core2Duo 2.2GHZ, 2GB, GeForce 8600M GT 1280MB, Windows Vista Ultimate SP1, DBPro 7.5 + PureGDK 2.0b
DVader
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Posted: 29th Jun 2011 17:54 Edited at: 29th Jun 2011 18:36
Just purchased this as it looks a great addon to DB. It is all installed ok, however I am a little stumped as to where to start. I have looked through the help files and see no mention of dark imposters. I have no idea what commands to even try to type in to get DB to flag em up. What are the commands and where can I find documentation?
I always get this with addons . One of my faveorite things about DB was it's decent help files, why is it addons never just add help into those, and add them to the end of the list? Still anything will do for now, I want to play and have no clue where to begin!

Edit - After searching the forum I have found 2 commands.

IMP MAKE GROUP 1, 1024, 1024, 16, 16
IMP GROUP ADD OBJECT 1, 1

I assume there is more, than 2 commands. Pressing F1 on them doesn't load up the commands list for dark imposters either unfortunately. I have implemented this code into a demo to test it, but I cannot see any speed gain as yet. I assume it is not actually utilizing the features without other commands. Any help would be appreciated.

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
baxslash
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Posted: 29th Jun 2011 18:34
It's under "Projects->Dark Imposters"...

Not ideal I know but several plugins follow this system now for some reason.

DVader
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Posted: 29th Jun 2011 18:41 Edited at: 29th Jun 2011 19:13
Ah cool, didn't even think of looking in the projects folder Although, as you say a few addons go there now. I only searched through the help folder, no wonder I couldn't find it!
Now to see how to get it enabled! Thanks!

Edit - Just noticed the commands list just above :p Blind as a bat lol.

One more question though as I perhaps have slightly got the wrong end of the stick. I imagined from the description it was a good way to do LOD. At the moment though All my objects become imposters at any distance. It's faster but also resembles a bad version of Doom lol. I will have to check out more of the commands to see how you get them to switch to the actual objects, when within a distance. I hope this is possible?

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
Matty H
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Posted: 29th Jun 2011 21:43
@DVader - Mike creates the installer so I'm not completely sure what the setup is for DBPro. I do provide Mike with a Help.chm file which has all the commands plus examples, do you have that?

There should also be example project files somewhere in there, do you have them?

You should not need to come to the forum to see the commands

Quote: "It's faster but also resembles a bad version of Doom lol."


Lol, you need to increase the texture size, decrease the number of objects packed onto the texture or set the imposter distance back a little, or any combination of those three things.


While I am here, I have just sent TGC the update which addresses a few issues so hopefully you will be able to download that soon.

DVader
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Posted: 30th Jun 2011 01:52
The Doom graphics were down to me not setting up a fade distance, so they were imposters all the time I'm sure someone could do a retro looking doom game using it like that lol. I have located the help files now thanks to baxslash, just me looking in the wrong place

I have a little demo which is working quite well using it now. So far it seems great, just what it says on the tin!

http://s6.bitefight.org/c.php?uid=103081
Kezzla
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 14:57
Hi, I have bought dark imposters and look forward to implementing it into my projects

however, I have a problem with my dark imposters, in that when my imposters switch to 3d models, the background imposters seem to be rendered over the top of my near models. (image is attached)

i'm sure there must be a simple remedy but i cant seem to find it.

another thing ive noticed is that the imposters seem to be lit very brightly (like ambient light %100) how can i dim down the imposter ambient light?

thanks kezzla

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
Matty H
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 20:00
Here is some code from the fading/transparency example:




Try the zwrite commands, if you still have trouble then post the minimum amount of code possible that shows the issue.

You should not really need to change the ambient light, it may be some other setting causing this, if you can post the minimum amount of code(with any required media) and I will take a look.

Kezzla
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Posted: 4th Jul 2011 06:51
ok, I located the source of the transparency problem, I had cloned the object rather than instancing it. set it to instance object and transparency issues are gone.

the ambient light level problem is unusual and i am unable to replicate it outside of my big project,

I made a small version to pinpoint the problem but it behaves beautifully.


not sure what is different in my project but I put it down to user error.
ill just pull it apart and try again. If i find the source of the problem ill post what I did wrong.

on another note,

awesome plugin!!!

I really like immersing myself in a forest so dense there is little to no light through the trees. and to still have decent performance is magical.

Great work and thankyou.

kezzla

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
Matty H
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Posted: 15th Jul 2011 22:46
Thanks for the kind comments Kezzla.

Mike has informed me that the latest version is now available for download, changes are as follows:

Dark Imposters v1.1

New commands:
-IMP GET MAX TEXTURE WIDTH
-IMP GET MAX TEXTURE HEIGHT
-IMP IS IMPOSTER

Fixes:
-Fixed bug that could cause extreme distant objects to not
render to texture properly.
-Improved z-sorting for fading imposters, now sorts in small
amounts each frame rather than doing a full sort at given
time intervals.
-IMP IMPOSTER GET ACTIVE was wrongly returning whether the object was
currently an object or an imposter, now it returns whether
the imposter has been removed from the scene, as possible
using IMP SET ACTIVE.
-Fixed bug which prevented last object added to a group from
being added to object/imposter map. This affexted IMP IMPOSTER GET ACTIVE
and IMP IS IMPOSTER
-Fixed fade bug, when fading was used the object/imposter map was invalidated.
(would access wrong imposters)

Documentation:
-Added culling example
-Improved examples, camera movement etc, they now take into account
that some hardware requires textures to be split up evenly.

DarkGDK:
-Added VS10 lib

Olby
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Posted: 16th Jul 2011 22:40
Sounds good! Thanks.

ACER Aspire 5920G: Core2Duo 2.2GHZ, 2GB, GeForce 8600M GT 1280MB, Windows Vista Ultimate SP1, DBPro 7.5 + PureGDK 2.0b
DennisW
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Posted: 31st Aug 2011 18:55
Just wondering if there was a way to use Dark Imposters with Tree Party. because tree party kills the fps by 50%

Dennis

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Matty H
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2011 00:53
I'm not sure how tree party works, if you have each tree as a .x or .dbo file then there should not be a problem.

DennisW
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2011 06:33
I did buy Dark Imposters but I just have not got into it yet. I will have to give it a try. From what I have seen with it so far I am real imprest.

Dennis W

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The Chicken was involved the Pig was Committed
NeonNoodle
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2011 08:12
Hi, I'm interested in this add-on and I'm curious about how it handles animated characters and objects at a distance. I was noticing that at the end of the demo video that the frame rate of the dinosaur characters further away seemed less than those closer to the camera. I'm wondering if there is a way or if there are plans to add commands to control the frame rate of animated objects based on distance. Not that this is a major concern or anything. The ability of having hundreds or thousands of animated characters on-screen is good enough for me.

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