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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Why does FPSC lag so much?

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Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 1st Jul 2011 23:36
When playing Crysis 2 on full settings i get like 50-60 framerate the entire game, but in my small little map in FPSC with 2 lights somehow only gives me 30-40 framerate. WHY? Is there something i can download to fix/help with this?

-Josh
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AJ Schaeffer
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Posted: 1st Jul 2011 23:41
First off, lag occurs when there is a sorry connection in a multiplayer game, not choppy framerate.

Second, if you haven't already noticed, FPSC isn't the most powerful engine in the world. Things like walls are made of many parts and many other reasons too.

But if you want more speed search "wasp Mod"

Making someone's day a little better because of one of my models means a lot to me.
Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 1st Jul 2011 23:49
I know it's not the most powerful engine in the world....

And as for the wasp mod thing, i hate mods. Everytime i tried to use one i had to re install my original FPSC because it would always screw up something. I followed every directions that came with the mods, and it still didn't work. So that is the reason i don't want to use mod's, however if i do end up getting $30 im going to buy project blue, just for the motion blur

-Josh
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Gunbarrelguru
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 00:08
ONLY 30-40 fps? Well I'm sorry to say this but for FPSC is you can keep it in that range, that's pretty darn good. This isn't the Source engine, or even the Unreal engine. So it's an acceptable 30-40 framerate or nothing, though I have heard of mods that can increase your framerate (but they don't work for me either
Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 00:43
Well i downloaded the wasp mod and will try it later on tonight. And 30-40 is ok, just i wanted 60 framerate because then it looks like it runs really smooth. But thanks for commenting Gunbarrelguru!

-Josh
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Bugsy
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 00:53


what version of fpsc do you have?
older versions are capped at 33-38

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Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 01:32
I use 1.18 (beta 18/17?), the newest one

-Josh
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Wolf
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 01:46
Quote: "ONLY 30-40 fps? Well I'm sorry to say this but for FPSC is you can keep it in that range, that's pretty darn good."


Absolutely not true. Not at all... on a machine that can run crysis 2, FPSC with everything it can build will most likely run between 50 and 60 fps. I do never get below the 50 fps mark on all of my maps.

Don't worry Exu Corporations, there is something wrong somewhere that can be fixed. Lets start off with you posting your setup.ini.

Is it a multiplayer level?



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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 04:08
Check that you have the textures that any shaders require.

I agree with wolf. there is something wrong in the map or models used in the map. What does your polygons says as you pan in the room. Look for a spike in that number. I have built huge levels 12 levels high with 20 static lights and get between 50 - 60 fps on my dual core processor with a Nvidia 8500 video card. When makeing this level from the start. I just kept finding where chunky media was and optimized it. I had found that a lot of the problems was not having the proper textures or a lot of polygons in one spot.

Do post your setup.ini file and maybe a screen shot of your map.

The picture in the download button is an example of what I can put in there and still get 50 - 60 fps. I can also have 5 - 6 characters in there shooting at me and still get that frame rate.
This map took two weeks to optimize.

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Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 04:10
Now i feel bad, i figured out what my problem was. I tried to apply this one shader to all of the entities in the map because it made them look nice, but it gave me a low framerate. So i decided to change it and now im back up to 55-60 framerate

Sorry guys, but why do shader's actually drop the framerate? What is it about them that make the game lose framerate? Just wondering

-Josh
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 04:13
Which shader were you using? You say you used it on all the objects in your map. See my post above yours

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Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 04:16
I forgot, i changed my map to something new. I didn't like where it was going, and why does your attached image only get 16 framerate? That quite bad... But sadly im going to watch a movie right now, so give me like an hour until i can respond...

-Josh
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 04:31
Thats the screen cap utility that I am using. It drop frames as it captures the screen. as soon as it captures the frame its back up to 50 - 60 FPS

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Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 06:24
Oh alright, and i guess this thread can be locked as now i have figured out my problems. Thanks for commenting guys!

-Josh
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Leongamerz
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 06:55
I think you used PS 3 Shader.Maybe your computer cannot support PS 3 shader.

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Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 07:08
I think it might have been that one, but why would my computer not be able to run it?

-Josh
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 07:16
Because if your video card does not support that type of shader then it has to struggle to find some kind of solution to make it work.
I had a Nvidia 6200 graphics card that was PS3 shader ready. But when I used the shader I would get crazy FPS drop. I switched it for the card I have in it now(Nvidia 8500) and I get an increase to max even with this ps3 shader. My Geforce GT430 on my quad machine is not even an issue for any of the shaders that are used in the game engine.

What graphics card do you have?
Do you have the latest drivers?
Do you have the most current Direct X 9.0 installed?

If all that fails check on the internet for consumer complaint about your graphics card and see if some has a fix for it.

Any card that is a NVidia 8000 series or above, should be good for this game engine.

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Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 07:26
Quote: "What graphics card do you have?"

It's listed in my signature -____-

Quote: "Do you have the latest drivers?"

Im almost positive i do, i will check again...

Quote: "Do you have the most current Direct X 9.0 installed?"

Im running DX11, not dx9. I will check that out as well!

Thanks for commenting!

-Josh
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 07:37
Hmm. According to Radions site this card should handle that with no problem.
Check the DX9 SDK for the latest one.
You can open the shader in note pad

norm_spec_tangentbasis.fx
//Shader code by Mark Blosser
//WEBSITE: www.hyrumark.com
//EMAIL: [email protected]

//Description: Shader for SEGMENTS in FPSC. Uses normal mapping and specular, combined with lightmap texture auto-generated from FPS Creator.

//Textures:
//"texture_D.dds" diffuse texture
//"texture_I.dd" specular texture
//"texture_N.dds" normal map texture

-------------------------------------------------------

Make sure that you have the proper textures as stated in the shader above. This is the segment shader from bond1. This is not good for entities and therefore would cuase a great strain on the system.

Check and see. Has to be something to this effect slowing down your map.

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Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 07:56
Yea that was my problem, i was putting it on entites and not segments. My dumb fault... I have all of those textures though, and the shader does work on my segments with no lag. Thanks for commenting!

-Josh
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Pirate Myke
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2011 08:01 Edited at: 2nd Jul 2011 08:02
Happy Days. Enjoy!!

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maho76
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 15:03 Edited at: 3rd Jul 2011 15:04
Quote: "The picture in the download button is an example of what I can put in there and still get 50 - 60 fps. I can also have 5 - 6 characters in there shooting at me and still get that frame rate.
This map took two weeks to optimize.
"


this is interesting. with standard-settings and chars the framerate drops about 10fps when i insert a standard-char (lets say colonelX), and with each copy of him another 3fps are gone.

how do you manage the framerate not to drop with appearing chars,myke? would be a breakthrough for me, because the only lag-causing calculation on my builds is the entity-one (and complex 3d-physics on nonstatics). thoughts wandering around the mesh.x and the mass of animations. thought it has something to do with this, but i dont have learned blender a.o. yet.

please! help
Northern
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 20:06
Quote: "Sorry guys, but why do shader's actually drop the framerate? What is it about them that make the game lose framerate? Just wondering "


Hello Exu Corporations.

I'll try to explain your question in a manner easy.

Whenever you use shaders this will be expensive to render because instead of gpu (Graphic Process Unit) processing only one texture at a time it will need to process in the case of the FPSC three textures at the same time, ie, diffuse, specular and normal mappinp, considering that in your scene there is one texture only.

Now imagine a scene where there are 10 different textures with same resolution in pixels, without any shader enabled the gpu would has to handling (to calculate) only 10 textures.

If that same scenes previous now with shader enabled (Diffuse, specular and normal mapping), the gpu must to calculate now 30 different textures at once.

More, remember that in game scene there not are only textures, there are also entity meshes, ai, lighting mapping, sounds and so on demanding more mathematical calculus which should be done in milliseconds or less.

Whereas all that graphics are shown on computer screen will requires some kind of mathematical calculus before being displayed on the screen, therefore the more things to show up on the computer screen the greater the calculation time it will be, resulting drop in game frame rate.

I hope this may clarify your question.

Cheers.

Northern
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 20:30
Wow alright, thanks for explaining all that! So pretty much if im going to use shader's i should limit them? As in not a lot?

Thanks for commenting guys!

-Josh
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raymondlee306
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 21:16
Keep your shaders on things that matter. If you have a crate in the background and the player will never get more than 5 segments close to it, it does not need a shader (or a high quality texture for that matter). Remember games like Crysis 2 (which is pretty sweet by the way) has a whole team of well trained programmers and artists fine tuning every pixel. Us here are working by ourselves most of the time. That does not mean great things are not possible, we just need to be very clever and very creative while working on our own. If you stop and look very, very closely at the objects and buildings in Crysis 2 (which I do in almost all games to see how things are done), you see that some things have shaders, some do not. Some are very low poly with great textures and light-maps baked onto them to look good but also save memory for the fantastic lighting they have.
Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2011 21:27
That is true, i have noticed that games do that. I mean it makes sense, but like how come they can accomplish something like this (attached screenshot) and still get a steady fps when FPSC would probably get around 5fps or less... Anyways, thanks for commenting man!

Also, I have gotten my game back up to 60fps and staying, but as soon as i bring my gun out it drops to like 45 in some spots, does anyone know why?

-Josh
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Anigma
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 09:57
Heh.. "Only" 30-40 fps he says... My crappy laptop is having a good day when I get 20-25 out of it.

Sigh. One of these days I'll buy a real computer...

It compiled! Ship it!
Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 5th Jul 2011 10:07
Don't worry, that day will come soon enough!

-Josh
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raymondlee306
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Posted: 6th Jul 2011 00:53
What would drive that down in FPSC is the poly count. The cry engine is similar to unreal in the aspect that it can handle a wholly unbelievable amount of polies more than FPSC, but they are a ton more expensive and require a lot more of a learning curve. I might take on the challenge to recreate that scene and see what type of fps I get.

Quote: "but like how come they can accomplish something like this (attached screenshot) and still get a steady fps when FPSC would probably get around 5fps or less"
Pirate Myke
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Posted: 7th Jul 2011 17:29
@ maho76 - when I first started optimizing that map. I had dropped in five characters and FPSC did take a FPS hit bad and was barely movable. But it was not lagging where the character were interacting. I started looking for perfomance hits by turning on wireframe in the game engeine and watching the polycount meter.

Wall segment where using three time the number of vertices needed in geometry, where as the texture covered it just fine. That was a gain of 10FPS right there. reducing those knock out 30,000 static polys. Gantries had bunches of extra stuff I could take out. They also was giving trouble because of a missing texture that the shader wanted. Another 6fps increase.

All the walls, doors, and windows are dynamic entities for use with a shader the client wanted. Again poly reduction. The texture covered tham just fine. Another 9 fps increase.

That a 25 fps increase in just those.
Positioning gantries and columns to block off views to geometry was another gain in FPSC.

Changed my graphics card from a Nvidia 6200 se to an Nvideo 8500 card and this got me an extra 20 - 25 FPS.

Wow now I am at 50 - 60 FPS most of the time. Even with water, bloom or Lightrays, I can still get around 25 - 30 fps.

Definatly - destroy entities when finished with them. Frees up the thinking part of the game engine.
Position character so that when they are active you dont have 5 or 10 other ones just sitting there watching you do something taking up resources.

Reduce texture sizes where you can on objects that will not be so close.

All this together will increase your framerates greatly.
Forcing a light map rebuild will also give you a more accurate indication of how you did.

The map started with 150,00 polys and I reduced it to 60,000.

Hope this helps and sorry it took so long to reply

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maho76
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Posted: 7th Jul 2011 18:44
wow, there are some news for me in your post, thanks myke.

so vertices i have to cancel out in the mesh, right? i am not at the 3d-modelling at the moment, scripting first, but i thought about this that there would be a good framerate-increase to find.

i use var-/distance-scripts even for nonchar-entities that can be destroyed after passing.^^

texture reducing doesnt matter that much for framerate i think. never get aware of any better fps even with all set to 2 x 2px.

mainly at the moment, without any clue of 3d, i had to cancel water to get the levels tested in a good mood. around 5fps PER CHARACTER. water dont like character-entities, damn, it looks so nice

setting visoverlay to 1 on all segments after final build gives me an imense increase of polys (trippled, so about 700.000 for a former 250.000 poly-level^^) but nevertheless a stable and very high framerate of about 50-60 even for fully filled outdoor-terrains, full map up to level 19, full lightning and shaders, ...but without even 1 portal . do you know why this is such a boost for performance? i have no clue. before i have done that fpsc was a mess in big levels, random lags in every direction, even in zones nearly without segments at all.

i think thats all i can do for the moment without 3d-knowledge, right?

thanks.
Pirate Myke
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Posted: 7th Jul 2011 20:35
Yes. You would have to open the meshes in some kind of 3d model program. Most of the time, once you reduce the mesh then you also have to tweek the texture or the uv mapping to have the texture not stretch or become off center.

You could try switching the mesh for a wall segment with one in your meshbank folder that has a smaller file size. Most of the stock wall segments have 14 polygons in them. Theres a small amount of geometric detail. But a standard box only has 6 polygons. Thats over a 50 % reduction right there. A diffused textures with a little bump map in it and a normal map with some detail would make up the detail just fine.

Cut round objects down to 6 or 8 sides and have only the height segments that you need.

If you are not getting the results from the objects you have, then learning modelling or having someone model for you would be a great asset to you. Its tough to wear all the hats, But thats idependent game development. Try this out. Worse case is you can send me a texture and I will map it onto a straight box that is a wall and a floor size and ship the xfiles back to you.

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Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 7th Jul 2011 21:01
Thanks for the comments and info guys, this has really helped me out! Thanks again!

-Josh
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maho76
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Posted: 8th Jul 2011 11:01
thanks for the offer, myke, but i think simple walls and floors are good objects to get into the 3d-thing

used to get a hand on blender, but at the moment i am too busy with my job to do a learning-session with 3d-modelmakers in the evenings.
but good to know that there is another big potential for framerate-bonus, so i can go on with gameplay and get the other things later.

thank you.
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Posted: 8th Jul 2011 15:47
@ Maho76 - Great to hear that you are going to try it on your own.
Import a standard segment items into your model program for size reference. Do make sure your stuff is centered at 0,0,0. Do also pay attention to how the floor and wall comes in and align your new mesh to them. Being off a little bit here will put gaps or nasty lines in your segments when built in the test game.
Segment size is 8'4" x 8'4". or 2.54 meters x 2.54 meters or 100 generic units x 100 generic units.

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maho76
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Posted: 8th Jul 2011 16:40 Edited at: 8th Jul 2011 16:54
Quote: "Do make sure your stuff is centered at 0,0,0.....Segment size is 8'4" x 8'4". or 2.54 meters x 2.54 meters or 100 generic units x 100 generic units."


great, thank you for that, i would have searched for this when getting started.

i think i will download milkshape next week to compare it to blender. blender-tables are a mess when you work with adobe the whole day for the last 12 years so i want to try some other progs that look ... well, not so messed up^^
hard to learn blender in the evening when you did 2d-design for 9 hours a day. fpsc and even learn scripting is really enjoyable, but this... simply s*cks at the moment.

have you heared of autodesk mudbox? seen some demos, and that looks the way i want to do 3d-modelling. well, i have to wait a few days until realworld-work is done.

gz

this begins to go offtopic.
Pirate Myke
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Posted: 8th Jul 2011 16:59
Which ever program you decide to use, Make sure it can export x-files.
Blender - Good program and plenty of tutorials
Fragmotion - A bunch of people use this program in the forum
Milkshape - Same here
Wings3d - great starter program
3d Max - excellent program but expensive
Maya - Same here

Check out this link also, all these are free programs for modeling.

http://www.hongkiat.com/blog/25-free-3d-modelling-applications-you-should-not-miss/

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maho76
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Posted: 8th Jul 2011 17:17 Edited at: 8th Jul 2011 17:18
you are best, myke, thank you so much. you are saving a lot of my time.

gz

maik
Pirate Myke
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Posted: 8th Jul 2011 17:20
Your welcome. Happy hunting

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Dar13
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 06:41
Quote: "That is true, i have noticed that games do that. I mean it makes sense, but like how come they can accomplish something like this (attached screenshot) and still get a steady fps when FPSC would probably get around 5fps or less..."


1)Optimization of rendering engine(they made it, so they know it better than anyone else)
2)Use of a lower-level(and inherently faster) language such as C++ as well as quite possibly using some Assembler for repetitive code snippets.


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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 07:37
I figured it would be something like that, how come FPSC is not written in C++? Isn't that like the universal language for like all games? What i mean is, isn't that the basic language for most games? Wouldn't FPSC be better if it was written in C++?

Just wondering of course! Thanks for the comment Dar13!

-Josh
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Dar13
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 14:25
Quote: "how come FPSC is not written in C++? Isn't that like the universal language for like all games? What i mean is, isn't that the basic language for most games? Wouldn't FPSC be better if it was written in C++?"

FPSC was made in DarkBasic Professional as a proof of concept for that language(proving that it can be used for large projects). If it was in C++, it would be twice as many lines of source code(in DBP it's 56,000+ lines of source code).

It would be better if it was written in C++ but C++ can be a very difficult language to write code in.


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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 18:25
Why would porting FPSC from DBPro to C++ instantly improve the performance? Just because its the standard language for commercial games it requires teams of talented programmers to get the best out of it and still some games lag here and there.

What would be more useful is understanding why FPSC lags over say a bespoke DBPro FPS project such as the Quake level Evolved made which has lots of shaders, particle effects and dynamic shadows. These same things kill the framerate in FPSC despite being built on the same language.

Clearly somewhere down the line we are making a significant trade off between having a tool with point and click functionality compared with a custom project where everything is imported with parameters.

If for example I fill the map editor with standard, textured segments I should expect the framerate to be a consistent 60fps because thats how FPSC is designed to be used. I can make trade offs here and there with how many active phyiscs objects and enemies I have but the way the world is build and rendered is really important.

We should start with some proper analysis and identify what are the top 5 things which affect performance e.g. world culling, physics handling, AI processing, lightmapping etc and focus on improving those things.

Dar13
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Joined: 12th May 2008
Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 11th Jul 2011 21:22 Edited at: 11th Jul 2011 21:25
Quote: "Why would porting FPSC from DBPro to C++ instantly improve the performance?"

If the port is done by simply porting over, line by line, into C++ then yes the performance may very well stay the same. But if you use the specially made C++ constructs that Lee had to emulate in DBPro and FPSC, the speed benefits are definitely noticeable.

Quote: "What would be more useful is understanding why FPSC lags over say a bespoke DBPro FPS project such as the Quake level Evolved made which has lots of shaders, particle effects and dynamic shadows. These same things kill the framerate in FPSC despite being built on the same language."

I agree with you, there must be some sort of bottleneck in the program.
The thing is, FPSC and the Quake Evolved project are totally different things. FPSC has to be able to do a much more generic set of actions in a much more complex framework in order to fulfill the requirements of being a point-n-click game creator. The Quake Evolved project doesn't have to concern itself with that requirement, so it can streamline its coding significantly.

Quote: "We should start with some proper analysis and identify what are the top 5 things which affect performance e.g. world culling, physics handling, AI processing, lightmapping etc and focus on improving those things."

I can already tell you the top three.
#1: AI processing
FPSC has its own scripting engine which it uses to control every dynamic entity in the current level(and in certain mods the entire game). This separate language is slower than native DBPro code because of the script parser and the scripting logic that has to be run through most likely every single loop. If FPSC used an external scripting language such as Lua I can guarantee a speed increase and a more flexible scripting language.
#2: World Culling(or lack thereof)
Wasp Mod V2 has already addressed this quite effectively, but in vanilla FPSC there is zero culling outside of the portal system which is inefficient at best.
#3: Physics
ODE, the FPSC physics engine, is notorious for being one of the slower open source and free physics engines available for commercial use. Especially if the ODE that FPSC uses has not been updated for a few years.


Desecrated Studios
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Location: Kirtona
Posted: 11th Jul 2011 22:16
Quote: "vanilla FPSC"


This is probably a stupid question, but what does that mean? ^^
Does it just mean stock FPSC without any mods or something?

Thanks for commenting guys, this has helped me out a lot!

-Josh
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Dar13
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Location: Microsoft VisualStudio 2010 Professional
Posted: 11th Jul 2011 22:24
Vanilla FPSC means FPSC with no mods of any sort, just the default install.


Desecrated Studios
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Posted: 11th Jul 2011 23:29
Thanks, i figured it would be that

-Josh
Website is under construction
System Specs: AMD Phenom x3 2.2GHz, 4GB DDR2 RAM, 1TB HD, HD Radeon 5770 1GB, 22in Acer Monitor
Leongamerz
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Posted: 12th Jul 2011 05:37
Why TGC dont use another physics engine?.I dont know what so special with ODE.

Poloflece,Anayar,PWP,Henry Ham,Cosmic Prophet,Wolf,KeithC,Nickydude And Lee Bamber is my icon.

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