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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Licencing - the definitive thread.

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greenlig
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Posted: 15th Jul 2011 10:20
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Hi guys,

I have been reading this board for a bit, looking around for concise information on the licencing issues for AGK. In the FAQ it defines the two tiers differently, and sets them also with separate licencing. When the pricing and date was announced a few days ago, it was noted that the tier system no longer applied in that sense, and was more of a development path.

My question is fairly simple, and hopefully we can collate all this information into one location, rather than all over the place. Also, it would be wonderful if one of the powers-that-be could add the official story to this.

My basic question is - What happens with distribution of the apps I create?

Can this be clearly answered, or is the information not ready yet?

I'm really looking forward to this tool, and regardless of the licence, I know I will be purchasing it on day 1. I've been using DarkBASIC for 12 years now, and still use it at my job as a prototyping tool.

Regards,
Greenlig

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RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 15th Jul 2011 17:01
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Hi,

You can do what you want with the apps you make. The only problem comes if you are using the BASIC and want to publish them to app stores. You can do this all yourself but you will need store agreements with companies like Apple, Samsung etc. You will also need a Mac if you want to publish onto iOS and MacOS.

After launch we will look at how we can help users publish via TGC. Nothing is decided on this just yet, we want to get the core product out first.

Rick

Financial Director
TGC Team
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greenlig
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Posted: 15th Jul 2011 19:21 Edited at: 15th Jul 2011 19:31
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Fantastic. Thanks for the response. If you are looking for the answers to this question, as I have been, here they are.

Thanks Rick.

Regards,
Greenlig

EDIT - Got to add some stuff here. I've been using DarkBASIC since I was 12. I found it on a CD that came with a magazine. I played with the demo, and was hooked. Particularly, the cave demo got me. I edited the shoes off that thing, and, in essence, created my first mod. Since then, I used DarkBASIC almost every day. I grew up in a very rural area, and this was my only path to game creation. I was a useless coder, but over time, and as a direct result of TGC's commitment to a solid platform, I have become quite competent. I now design and produce arcade games, and am the project lead on multiple developments. Still, I use DBPRO to prototype games. I love this software, and the company that produces it. It seems that every year I go on, the software becomes more relevant and useful. I will be using this companies software till they stop producing it. /endrant

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DrT
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Posted: 15th Jul 2011 22:45
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RickV,

Please clarify "The only problem comes if you are using the BASIC and want to publish them to app stores."

What is the problem?
Has TGC experimented with this already?
If so, which stores and what were the results?

My concern is that Tier 1 is useful only for prototyping and that Tier 2 is required for app submission. Please correct me if I am mistaken by providing a concrete example. For example, this is the process you would follow to publish a Tier 1 app to the _____ app store.

Thanks.
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 19th Jul 2011 12:07
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So if you use the basic version, you won't be able to publish to the appstore unless you have a mac. How about jaibraking, do you still need a mac?

Srry about my english im from sweeden
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KISTech
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Posted: 19th Jul 2011 20:10
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From what I've read so far,

You CAN publish Tier 1 apps. You will have to direct your users to download and install the AppGameKit Player first.

You WILL need Mac OS X to publish, but the app can be written from the AppGameKit IDE in Windows. I'm not sure on all the details of what you'll have to do with your code in Mac OS. I suspect there's a method you'll use to translate your app into something the Apple app store will accept. It will then be installed to be recognized by the AppGameKit Player.

There are ways of putting Mac OS X on your computer legally, as in NOT a Hackintosh. You can legally install OS X as a virtual machine using something like VirtualBox virtualization software. I've seen posts from several developers elsewhere that are doing it this way and they haven't had any problems from Apple about it.

Tier 2 apps, for Apple at least, will require the same development environment that Apple requires. Mac OS X, and the iOS or Mac SDK. The only difference is you would also be using the AppGameKit libraries in your code.

As the time draws closer to release, and as the players and tools are finalized and approved by the various app stores, more details will come.

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darzon
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Posted: 19th Jul 2011 21:36
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if I buy AppGameKit , can I install it on 2 PC?
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Paul Johnston
TGC Developer
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Posted: 20th Jul 2011 19:30
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Quote: "You CAN publish Tier 1 apps. You will have to direct your users to download and install the AppGameKit Player first."


I want to clear up this point, but we are still working on it ourselves so please take whatever I say as work in progress and if we can find a better/easier way we will of course look at it.

The AppGameKit player will be an app on the app store, but it will only be used for testing your tier 1 creations from the IDE.

When you come to distribute your app (assuming you want to distribute on your own) you load up XCode on a Mac, we provide you a template project that you can simply load and add your compiled bytecode file as if it were a piece of media, then hit compile and submit it to Apple.

This template project will essentially be the AppGameKit Player but built specifically to run your bytecode, and only your bytecode. Therefore it is a standalone app in its own right from the point of view of Apple. We think this has the most chance of making it through Apple's approval process.
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KISTech
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Posted: 20th Jul 2011 19:52
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Nice.

Thanks for clearing that up Paul. It sounds like a great way to do it.

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The Zoq2
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Posted: 20th Jul 2011 22:36
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Dosn't apple have a 1000$ fee for submitting apps to the appstore?

Srry about my english im from sweeden
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DrT
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Posted: 20th Jul 2011 23:25
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@ Paul Johnston,

Thank you for taking time to discuss how one might publish a tier 1 app for Mac and iOS.

What about PC and Meego and Bada?
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Paul Johnston
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 00:42
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Quote: "Dosn't apple have a 1000$ fee for submitting apps to the appstore?"


They have a $99 per year license fee to submit apps, but you can submit as many as you like in that time.
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KISTech
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 03:41
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Quote: "What about PC and Meego and Bada? "


Those are a similar process, but don't require the use of a Mac to do it.

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KISTech
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 05:17
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After doing some more in-depth reading of the Apple iOS developer license agreement, I must retract my previous statement.

Section 2.2 of the iOS Developers License Agreement states that you can only use their SDK on an Apple branded computer.

So while running Mac OS X in a virtual machine on a PC isn't illegal, it does technically violate the terms and conditions of the developer agreement.

Also, as of this posting the current SDK requires Snow Leopard 10.6.6.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 21st Jul 2011 11:29
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Quote: "Section 2.2 of the iOS Developers License Agreement states that you can only use their SDK on an Apple branded computer."


Well, that is great and all, but how are they going to find out that you used a virtual machine?

If you use VirtualBox (www.virtualbox.org) or VMWare to run MacOS X 10.6, how are they going to find out that you really didn't use a real mac or not? I mean Apple pushes "Bootcamp" for tons of things.

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.
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KISTech
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 02:55
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Not sure how or if they would find out. I've seen posts from current Apple iOS and Mac developers who are using OS X in a VM, so it's certainly possible.

I was just pointing out the error in my previous assumptions, and pointing out that if you do use it in a VM on a non Apple branded computer there is some risk involved.

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Doz
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 19:16
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A suggestion to anyone looking for a Mac to develop on, at least for students anyway. My computer science labs didn't have any around, but the art department sure did. If I can't find a friend's to borrow I'll be heading there to submit.

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KISTech
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 21:36
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Keep in mind things like code signing certificates have to be applied for and used from the same computer. Borrowing one may not always be the best option.

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Doz
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2011 22:25
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Very true, I'll remember that, but I'm def not buying a $1k Macbook for this single purpose. Though maybe if I get some actual revenue I could write one off

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Conjured Entertainment
AGK Developer
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Posted: 26th Jul 2011 15:35 Edited at: 26th Jul 2011 16:09
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Quote: " I'm def not buying a $1k Macbook for this single purpose."

Agreed
It seems that if Apple would let us make enough money from our Apps to buy a Mac, then they might have more sales than rejecting us and keeping us down.
Their whole "you have to buy our hardware before you can sell your software to our customers" is a real turn off for me.
I mean, if they force us to develop for everything except them from the start, then why would we want to support their products after we overcome that challenge??
Then, there is their approval process...so, I'm expected to go to the expense of the new computer, but only to later have my app rejected anyway???

I may just develop for all of their competitors and not offer my games for their platform even when I can afford the Mac for a single purpose.

Quote: "After launch we will look at how we can help users publish via TGC. Nothing is decided on this just yet, we want to get the core product out first."

I really hope this happens soon after the initial release, because I would much rather publish through TGC than through Apple.
Also, helping us get our games out there will give more exposure to the AppGameKit thus increasing its sales.
That would be a double whammy for TGC revenues. (percentage of App sales and increasing AppGameKit revenue)
Maybe a splash screen saying "Created with AGK" or something similar would be a nice touch for apps published through TGC

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Greenster
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Posted: 26th Jul 2011 23:03 Edited at: 26th Jul 2011 23:07
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Something that should be really noted: "Companies with turnover greater than $100,000 to pay $999 per seat. Indies that grow to this level can upgrade for $887. For more details on this please contact us."
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Hodgey
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Posted: 26th Jul 2011 23:33
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Quote: "I'm def not buying a $1k Macbook for this single purpose."

I might, buy a macbook that is. If I think I have an app that will generate a bit of income then why not? It is also a good learning curve for me but I can see your point of view as well. It is actually a brilliant marketing technique to only allow ios apps to be built on a mac if you think about it, annoying but brilliant.

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KISTech
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Posted: 26th Jul 2011 23:53
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You can realistically only build Windows apps in a Windows development environment, so it's not like it's something crafty or underhanded.

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Hodgey
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 00:15
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Quote: "You can realistically only build Windows apps in a Windows development environment, so it's not like it's something crafty or underhanded"

or unheard of now that you mention it, good point KISTech.

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Rampage
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 01:30
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I really am disappointed that I have to obtain a Mac/MacOS to be able to publish for Apple.
I always new this was the case but it seems so restricting and stupid.

Which is why when Android support comes out this is going to be that much more awesome

Regards,

Max
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DMXtra
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 09:56
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Quote: "
Something that should be really noted: "Companies with turnover greater than $100,000 to pay $999 per seat. Indies that grow to this level can upgrade for $887. For more details on this please contact us."
"


This means that if you make turnover greater than $100,000 when you are selling apps (not companies in general). If you have a company that makes over $100,000 a year selling apps, then yes $1000 isn't a big deal. Believe me, I made almost that much just in Los Angeles in the 2000's.

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 09:59 Edited at: 27th Jul 2011 10:08
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Quote: "I really am disappointed that I have to obtain a Mac/MacOS to be able to publish for Apple.
I always new this was the case but it seems so restricting and stupid."



If you run a Virtual Machine (VM) you don't have to.
VirtualBox is free for example.


You can always run a VM or wait until after the launch of AGK
and then sell it through TGC.


This isn't a deal breaker for me. Virtual Machines is "the
bomb", if you have not played with them yet, you should check it
out. www.virtualbox.org (install Windows, Linux, or Mac on a
virtual machine and build servers or development environments
without messing up your own computer.


For example "Windows 8" will be coming out soon and you can
test it and play with it in a VM (without formatting and messing
up your own computer). And in some cases there are services out
there for Windows that will let you boot directly into the VM.



I have actually ran an apache/php/mysql website from a VM
to the outside world and I can remote into it like a real
computer, but it's all virtual. I can restore it to a state
previously that I choose within one click of my mouse.

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.
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Rampage
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 12:54
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Thanks for the information DMXtra!

I will definitely check it out!
Music to my ears!
Brilliant as I already own a copy of Lion.
(Well my father sent me a copy.)

Can you develop of Lion or do you need Snow Leopard as I have read?

Regards,

Max
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KISTech
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 18:44
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The current iOS SDK requires Snow Leopard 10.6.6 or greater.

Once that is installed the latest update out is 10.6.8.

You should be able to use Lion without any issues. It's available through the Mac App Store as an Upgrade for $30. Not sure when they'll have standalone installable copies out.

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darzon
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 20:46
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I have a netbook with :

atom N455 (1,6 GHz)
1Gb ram
Intel Media Graphics Accelerator 3150 64Mb ram
Hard Disk 250 Gb
Windows7 starter

is this configuration sufficient to devolope with AppGameKit ?
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KISTech
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Posted: 27th Jul 2011 20:58
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I would think that would work. Are you able to run DBPro on it?

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Conjured Entertainment
AGK Developer
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Posted: 28th Jul 2011 04:13 Edited at: 28th Jul 2011 04:17
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@darzon
Yes, that should work.
I can run FPSC on my netbook (but not very fast framerates), so AppGameKit should be no problem.
I plan to develop on my laptop and use a netbook for testing.

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greenlig
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Posted: 29th Jul 2011 04:13 Edited at: 29th Jul 2011 04:30
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An alternative to a Macbook is the Mac Mini. They are reasonably cheap (~US$700), and you could develop just fine on them.

Greenlig

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Caps On!
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Posted: 29th Jul 2011 18:46
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I have decided to take the leap to a Mac Mini - A brand new one can be purchased for $599 and has OSX Lion. It does not come with a keyboard, mouse, or monitor. However, you can use any usb keyboard or mouse, and connect it to an hdtv via an hd cable, or you may purchase the ones apple makes. I think a wireless keyboard is around $60 from Apple.

One way I found to come up with the money is by going around the house and finding stuff I no longer need or use and putting it on Ebay. Started 2 weeks ago and am up to $425.00.....just a thought.

Truth, Justice, and the Programmer's Way!
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