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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Building levels out of modular entities

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Black Profductions
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Posted: 31st Jul 2011 17:10
Hey guys, after beeing using a lot of other game engines and learning level design techniques i have become really familiar with modular game design and i wanted to know if this would be performance friendlly in fps creator.
I mean, is there any performance decrease, ai pathfinding errors if i choose to build out my level of static entities instead of segments?
Thanks

EGG HEAD OF DOOM
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Posted: 31st Jul 2011 18:36
Unfortunately building a level out of entities would not be very productive in this engine. However, you can use a program like 3D World Studio to design and make the levels and import that entire map as an entity. You only have to play around with the collision.

maho76
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Posted: 31st Jul 2011 19:05 Edited at: 31st Jul 2011 19:05
fpsc-engine has its main problems with too many polys, no matter if they are segments or entities. for big planes in big maps it should be better to work with big entities instead of hundreds of 100x100 segments, in some cases you can save a lot of poly-calculation with this method i think. working on that too because design of my game allows to use that. only thing is that you have to use big textures, but that is less a problem than many segments when thinking of performance as far as i learned. should be a proper method especially for background models where player and npcs cant move to.

so building your level out of segments as normal and reimport as a all-in-one-entitiy out of a single mesh for some parts of the map.

just my 2 cents, i will continue tests on that in the future. could be a main performance saver or not, i dont know yet.
Black Profductions
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Posted: 31st Jul 2011 21:10
Thanks for the answers guys! I have used this engine quite a lot in the past i am aware of the poly limitation it has.
The question here would be, if entities will be effective to build the level instead of segments, assuming they both have the same polycount
What is really good about building the level out of entities is the ability to destroy them once you dont need to use them again in that level. Increasing the frame rate

Soviet176
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Posted: 31st Jul 2011 21:11
No, modular levels would not be good. The current AI cannot do anything on entity's used as floors. They bob up and down. Plus the collision problems are ridiculous.


Black Profductions
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Posted: 31st Jul 2011 21:19
Quote: "No, modular levels would not be good. The current AI cannot do anything on entity's used as floors. They bob up and down. Plus the collision problems are ridiculous."

Thats the point i was trying to touch, what bugs would it cause and why nobody has used it earlier
Thanks for the answer

Pirate Myke
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Posted: 31st Jul 2011 22:20
I am sorry gentleman. I tend to disagree on this. I built this level out of all entitys except the initial floor.

With out the video capture going. I am getting 50 FPS.
120,000 polys in the scene.

Here is a link to a video I posted.

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v21134035jb5kWh7d

Think outside the box. All segments are is geometry put together for you already. They consist of all entitys linked together by the FPS file


Captain Coder
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Posted: 1st Aug 2011 00:21
I think part of Beyond Life 2 (see this thread:http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=183314&b=25) is made using some entities as segments.

I do believe EGG HEAD OF DOOM is right though, as creating entities is hard (I am just learning, not very easy for beginners). It might get easier down the road though.

Captain Coder
Soviet176
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Posted: 1st Aug 2011 01:20
I am talking about enemy AI, they cannot maneuver on entity flooring. Not sure about walls and such.


maho76
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Posted: 1st Aug 2011 01:37 Edited at: 1st Aug 2011 01:39
Quote: "Think outside the box. All segments are is geometry put together for you already. They consist of all entitys linked together by the FPS file"


right, i also think that using entities instead of segments but with the same number of polys would not change anything, it gets even more bad because of physics-calc when you use nonstatics.
i dont think you can build a complete destroyable level because of the physics, would result in imense calculation and bad framerate.

but think this:

example: simple builded house wich you cannot enter of 5x5x5 segments, each a simple cube with 6 polys = 600 (x 2 because of inner walls) for walls and 300 for floors/roof = 1500 polys. using a simple cube instead = 6 polys.

because of the more complex segments you normally use, this is an extreme example.
but you can save the invisible parts of walls (x,y rows and inner/outer walls) that are between one segment and the next when using 1 entity instead of x segments. not much with complex segment-meshes, but everything counts, even when you just save 5 frames with a fully filled level, then you save 5 frames = good


pro: polysave for other enviroment. good for scenery-elements in the background and big surfaces. good for destroying buildings/secret rooms and more.

con: big textures limiting the maxbuild of 1800mb even more, so you have to use it not too often on too many different things.
AND you have to place it really accurate when you wont get failures. segments fit perfectly together.

if you can use this in a big scale depends on how complex your meshes have to be.

mixing it up in a balanced way is the best you can do = the art of a good level-setup/cleaning > professional game-developing.


my thoughts.

n8
Pirate Myke
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Posted: 1st Aug 2011 03:26
Correct, If you went and made everything the same it would not reduce the overhead, But making your own would allow you to trim the hidden polys out. back sides of windows and walls that are never seen by the player. Take out the detail in the meshes and use a great texture with a great normal map and you save a bundle of polys.

The level I showed in the video took two weeks of optimizing and mesh reduction to get it to flow. The outer shell and columns had 263,000 polys when started. now the main outer shell and floor is down to 57,000. with the columns and populated stuff adding around 67,000 polys. I have even tested with characters shooting at me and the drop was to around 40 - 45 fps. Still have 687 megs before I reach the memory cap.

But I have found it easier to use a reduce poly floor segment for the flooring. Characters can walk on it with out a headache. at that point they cannot walk thru the static entities, they can and will jump over the dynamic one's that are set to immobile.

I did one level that was all entities including the floor, but it had issues when it came to a section of the floor entity that was to long. (over 300 unit) I had found that the characters could go most places, but sometimes they could cross to the other entity floor section, but would not be able to get back if chasing the player. So now floors made of entities and not segments are used sparingly and keep that entity at 1 x 2 segments or 3 x 2 segments.

My point is this. Try what you feel, But do keep in mind of how segments work and stick to those dimensions for the flooring at least. The floors are important in the engine and give a point of reference for collision boundaries. As far as the walls and ceiling go, if they are static entities, it is not an issue. Doorway walls would need to be built with polygon collision instead of box collision to function and allow the player and characters to walk through them. Do make sure that all entity strengths for dynamic entities used as column or other things are set to zero (indestructible), as the player would be able to shoot them and destroy them, leaving an unbelievable game level that a colt 45 could blow away a 40 ton column or bridge section.


DarkFrost
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Posted: 1st Aug 2011 04:43
When I do this I simply use segments for the flooring, so it works with the AI and the character. The walls and ceilings are made with entities.

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