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FPSC Classic Product Chat / The future of FPS Creator? What do you think will happen? What do you think it will be like? {Discussion Thread}

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Wolf
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Posted: 19th Aug 2011 17:03
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Quote: "It's still got the "HEY! I'M MADE WITH FPSC!!!" feel. And quite frankly, pretty much all the FPSC games I've played feel exactly the same. "


I'm trying to get around this and I'm making progress on it, so you can count on my future games "Relict" and "Children of Dagon" not having that particular feel to it.

Quote: "It's called FPSCx10 and the community almost entirely rejected it.""


Don't get me started...again...

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firelord
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Posted: 19th Aug 2011 20:54 Edited at: 19th Aug 2011 21:17
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why is there this problem with x10..im not starting a flame war..but was there a good reason why it was dropped..? im just asking and not to cause an argument..please decent comments only.im not saying x9 is worst or better but x10 does have possibilty's please dont write after this post x9 is the best or x10 is the best this is just a question why x10 was dropped ..x10 uses graphics card instancing which gives you more memory to play with..i use x9 for my current project and x9 has all the features nearly of x10...but x10 could be the future..with x9 there are updates that have made x9 as good as x10..please i do not want to start an argument x9 or x10 is the best just sencible comments please.. im just thinking if x10 had updates where it would lead..
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Ched80
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Posted: 19th Aug 2011 21:36
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Ah I do enjoy these debates with newbies wanting the UNREAL engine and oldies tutting loadly.

I love FPSC; making FPS's is quick, enjoyable and very rewarding.
I can have a game idea and by the end of the weak you can be playing a pretty decent demo of it.

And then there's the community; full of dreams , sarcasm and free stuff of incredible quality . I can can post said demo and by the end of the day have people critique it with genuine warmth.

What's not to be happy about for £30?

Where do I see FPSC going? Well there are plenty of mods providing exciting features that expand the player's experience so I imagine some of these fetaures may be incorporated in the future, but I honestly like FPSC as it is and since v118 came out (for free) I couldn't be more happy with it.

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xplosys
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 00:31
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I don't see much of a future for an engine based on Windows XP and DX9. The single best thing TGC could do for FPSC is make the games created with it run on a modern day computer. I'm not talking about having to add disclaimers and instructions or including a ReadMe file to tell the end user that he has to install outdated files on his computer to make your game run. I'm talking about an intelligent game.exe or built-in installer that can detect if needed files are present and install them, or at least point the end user in the right direction. This doesn't have to be done by TGC, we can build our own installers, but not doing it makes this for most a toy for strictly personal use.

Why do I have to install two year old DirectX files to make a game run?
How do I know that I need to do that?
How do I do it?
Please hold my hand!

Until we can deliver compiled games that run "out-of-the-box" we'll never release a serious title with X9. We don't need shiny new features. We need a basic up-to-date core.

X10 fills the need, but for a myriad of reasons it just didn't catch on. Perhaps not enough content, I don't know.

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TheK
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 01:38
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I hope to see FPSC 64-bit, but I'm pretty sure, that this might never happen.

It would be really great to make FPSC stream the levels on-the-fly, so that we probably could have endless levels, because the memory usage would be dynamic and, depending on the optimization, would never get past 2GB. That's a way how it would work with 32-bit operating systems, too.

A good engine demonstrating that is CryEngine. Crysis' levels are huge. To make it run on 32-bit systems, CryEngine is streaming the levels, like only having one little bit of the level loaded at a time around the player. If the player moves, the engine loads other parts and deletes the others from the memory on-the-fly. Probably that wouldn't work that great in DBPro, but it would be a real relief for the most of the FPSC developers.
For me it doesn't really depend on the map size, but more on the details I have in my levels, or at least want to have...

Best wishes,
TheK

PS: In the future I see FPSC like it is right now.


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AbdulAhad
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 03:03
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Quote: "We don't need shiny new features"


I thought you liked shiny stuff.

Quote: "A good engine demonstrating that is CryEngine. Crysis' levels are huge. To make it run on 32-bit systems, CryEngine is streaming the levels, like only having one little bit of the level loaded at a time around the player. If the player moves, the engine loads other parts and deletes the others from the memory on-the-fly. Probably that wouldn't work that great in DBPro, but it would be a real relief for the most of the FPSC developers."


I believe that is called culling.

But regardless of the fact, FPSC is actually a great engine and continues to expand with every update! Mark(bond1), Jake(ErrantAI) and Dale(Cosmic Prophet) are just a few of the individuals who 'strive' to make FPSC worthwhile with their media!

Although I no longer use FPSC, I still find it an absolutely fantastic engine especially for quick level prototyping!

I don't think I want any more features for FPSC X9/10. Just a good HUGE bug-fix so that there are no more of these 'undocumented features' left in the engine.

In my honest opinion, TGC should also start focusing on FPSC x10 as it has a whole lot of untapped potential, just waiting to be released.

Abdul Ahad

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Rampage
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 04:56
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There is too much work to upgrade a low-grade engine like FPSC into something AA.
They already have abandoned and left it in the hands of the community, that much we all know.

If they were looking at FPSC again, they would develop a whole new engine and leave this one alone. TGC is a small company, and their main priority is AppGameKit at the moment. And will be for a long time seeing the publicity its starting to get.

Don't expect an official fpsc update in the next 5 years.

Regards,

Max
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Payam
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 11:37
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Until there is no team with a good scenario there is no even A game.
The powers of game engine is not 100% of a game.
So right now people can make good games but if you are talking about FPSC's features I have to say until there is no dynamic shadows,good collider and collision system,good physics,optimized polygon rendering etc and until the loadings are so long,the FPS is so low,the space is limited,there is no importing system in the editor(You should copy) etc there can't be any good game.
And you can't program everything for your game.
Actually FPSC is only 40% game engine and 60% is a wizard which lets you make very bad FPS games in few minutes and this has no value.

Have our guns was a mistake!!!

I am PaYaM
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Wolf
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 14:14 Edited at: 20th Aug 2011 14:15
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Quote: "etc there can't be any good game."

Quote: "Actually FPSC is only 40% game engine and 60% is a wizard which lets you make very bad FPS games in few minutes and this has no value."

Yeah sure... you know that this offends the people around here that are putting heart and soul in their game and are actually making really good games?

Please dont post things like this if you dont do any proper research.

Quote: "Actually FPSC is only 40% game engine and 60% is a wizard which lets you make very bad FPS games in few minutes and this has no value."


or a pretty cool FPS Game within 10 hours...I think I proved that already.



-Wolf

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firelord
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 15:10
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please no comments like x9 or x10 which one is better, put if they where to put there attention back to x10 who would aprove now vista and windows 7 use x10..just imagine where x10 could go...please no nasty commnents..i would post a poll but im afraid it will just turn nasty...
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Wolf
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 15:26
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Quote: "please no comments like x9 or x10 which one is better, put if they where to put there attention back to x10 who would aprove now vista and windows 7 use x10..just imagine where x10 could go...please no nasty commnents..i would post a poll but im afraid it will just turn nasty... "


then drop it already.

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firelord
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 17:36 Edited at: 20th Aug 2011 17:51
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what i was trying to say is would a poll be a good idea...maybe to get the community behind x10 with out people arguing...and i posted the thread to see if people would get behind x10 again...as now all new pc's have x10.. a majority of people have cards that are able to run x10..when x10 first came out on vista not many people swapped but now windows 7 uses x10 and it looks like its here to stay why not get behind a future engine like fpsc x10...maybe make people who have x9 could get a discount to get x10.....
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Wolf
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 19:24
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What I was trying to say is that X10 is a flawed piece of software and the topic about it should be dropped already. We had masses of discussion threads about it on this forum. Read through them if you like, but please dont keep going with it.

So I would say...drop it.

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srealist
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 20:40 Edited at: 20th Aug 2011 20:46
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Quote: "X10 is a flawed piece of software"

Quote: "Yeah sure... you know that this offends the people around here that are putting heart and soul in their game and are actually making really good games?"

Quote: "So I would say...drop it."


Likewise. Please don't call x10 a flawed piece of software.

Cheers,
Darin

P.S. I love your work.
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firelord
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 20:55 Edited at: 20th Aug 2011 21:02
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wolf what im saying is its only flawed because there are no updates..if there was updates then the flaws would be removed i started on fpsc x9 version 1.01 back in 2007 and it had its flaws with bugs and stabilty issues...people must have an open mind with software development not with just what they know or there would never be any progress with any software not just game engines...for example alot of people hated the old blender3d interface now its been improved..now its a great tool to work with...and i did a search not much information on the exact reason why tgc stopped updates....
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srealist
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 21:00
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x10 is being updated and updated very regularly through Mystic Mod. As MichaelX said "We are FPSC." Regardless of where TGC stands, those of us that love our engine will carry it forward.
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firelord
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 21:05 Edited at: 20th Aug 2011 21:07
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its all about progress.....and like you said x10 is getting updates with mystic mod.....but the comunity stands devided instead of coming together....one person will say x9 another x10....wolf i love all your work with x9...the future for fpsc is unclear but dont dismiss x10.....
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 22:44
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@firelord:

Quote: "the future for fpsc is unclear"


You know what, I think you're right.

Quote: "but dont dismiss x10"


I have x9 because

a) I found out about x9 first
b) x9 is the free version and that's what I downloaded
c) x9 is cheaper
d) x9 was in the FPS Creator Bonanza Pack
e) I did not find out about x10 until after I bought x9

Furthermore, I don't have x10 because I am happy with x9, and I don't have $70 lying around my house.

Quote: "They already have abandoned and left it in the hands of the community, that much we all know."


That I did not know. Ofcourse, I'm relatively new on the forums...

@AbdulAhad:

Quote: "FPSC is actually a great engine and continues to expand with every update! Mark(bond1), Jake(ErrantAI) and Dale(Cosmic Prophet) are just a few of the individuals who 'strive' to make FPSC worthwhile with their media!"


You said it!

Quote: "I don't think I want any more features for FPSC X9/10. Just a good HUGE bug-fix so that there are no more of these 'undocumented features' left in the engine."


I like that idea. I would like to see a graphics improvement as well, as I have shown some of my games to my friends and one of them is not at all impressed, graphics receiving the most criticism (I think).

Airslide said in this thread that FPSC should probably be written in a different language to really make progress. And I quote:

Quote: "For FPSC to really move on, I think it's going to have to move on to another language."


However, there is another hope - more or less. Errant AI had said in the previous post:

Quote: "X9 with DAI or not uses only one core during gameplay. The only time I've seen proper multiple core usage is during the lightmapping build process.

If FPSC could ever use more than one core or hyperthreading it would be a real beast but I won't hold my breath "


In the following post, Airslide said this (before the quote by him mentioned above):

Quote: "The best hope for multithreading would be with plugins like DAI, since the plugins themselves are written in C++. DBP code unfortunately has no multithreading capability."


So, if we figure out how to write our own plugins, there may be hope for FPSC afterall! I may not fix everything, but hey, it's a start - for some of us

Captain Coder

One of the most humbling days in your life will be the day you discover you AREN'T the best at what you love to do.
- Me
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Wolf
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 23:09
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Quote: "its all about progress.....and like you said x10 is getting updates with mystic mod.....but the comunity stands devided instead of coming together....one person will say x9 another x10....wolf i love all your work with x9...the future for fpsc is unclear but dont dismiss x10..... "


I haven't seen it yet from that perspective.
Maybe I should get around myself and check out what is going on in the X10 section aswell

Quote: "Please don't call x10 a flawed piece of software."


Besides that I just dont like it...it is FPSCreator and we all know that FPSCreator is flawed... but we love it anyway.

Quote: "P.S. I love your work. "


thank you!

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firelord
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 23:26 Edited at: 20th Aug 2011 23:33
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this is a thread saying where do we want fpsc to go...so lets come together and say to TGC this is where we want are future game engine to go...but it has to move on from x9 as the hardware and future windows versions is now using direct x10...would you still work with a game engine with direct x8..no you would not...im not saying x10 is the future but it has some improvments with performance compared to x9...so a rewrite of x10 to make it more streamlined maybe some x9 stuff added to x10.. maybe some of the external tools intergrated with fpsc like a more complete package..for example the segment editor and character editor intergrated with fpsc in one complete package...where you could make your assets within fpsc then load them into your level design..just using 3d model program to make entities and weapons..im imagining an all in one fpsc with direct x10 to make the engine upto date with current windows versions...it would not have to be a complete re-write just to make the code more streamlined...im not a master coder just a scripter but the base software is already there in x10..im saying think of the future a year down the line maybe 2 years...
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Doomster
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Posted: 20th Aug 2011 23:56 Edited at: 21st Aug 2011 00:24
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Quote: "the hardware and future windows versions is now using direct x10"

It's using DX11 to be precise, since DX10 came out way too early (as Vista did as well) and didn't really bring anything to the table, that wasn't already doable in DX9 (except for changes concerning the usage of the API itself), which even technology experts such as John Carmack realized and stated in public - it was merely a way of Microsoft and the hardware companies to sell their newest products.

So, to really move forward and focus on the future, DX10 should be ditched just as well as DX9 - because neither DX9 or DX10 are the future - and instead rely on the current DX11 technology.

But Dark Basic Pro itself is far to slow, unoptimized and old to make use of it and even with DX11 would meet the same performance and stability issues that we're already facing today and I doubt that Lee will completely rewrite it to use DX11, just to see that the work may go to waste again, as we've seen with the DX10 version already.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love these products as well as The Game Creators as a company and will use them as long as I can (same as Windows XP and DX9 ), but the only already available software with a real future is AppGameKit - everything else is completely obsolete nowadays, when you put down the rose-colored glasses for a moment, at least.

Especially since AppGameKit was just released, and still has a long road in front of it, we probably won't see anything happen anytime soon.

...however, my take on "What should TGC do?" would be:

-> Discontinue Dark Basic Pro, FPS Creator, FPS Creator X10.
-> Create Dark Basic Pro V2, and optimize it for the current technology (Win7, DX11) but not only that, but also optimizing the engine itself to be more powerful and capable of better built-in culling, perhaps streaming, etc. - as well as taking many of the syntax improvements from AppGameKit on board
-> Create FPS Creator V2 using Dark Basic Pro V2 - and optimizing it.

However, that would be a massive task, especially for a small company such as TGC, so... it'd be the best to appreciate all the work that already has gone into FPS Creator and see it as the nice, easy to use engine for all the hobbyists, and not an engine for commercial purposes that will compete with all the other engines, made my huge teams, on the market - and that's what FPS Creator already matches perfectly - thanks The Game Creators!

-Doomster

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RedneckRambo
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Posted: 21st Aug 2011 03:30 Edited at: 21st Aug 2011 03:31
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I personally don't see FPSC ever becoming up to par with AAA games... Five years from now, FPSC, maybe, (and this is still a huge maybe IMO) will be up to par with AAA games from a few years back today. So in five years, I see FPSC making games at a level of about 8 years past. That's what I'm going with at least lol. FPSC just doesn't have teams working on games like a company does... We will never see AAA games produced from it... Regardless of what the engine evolves to.

Quote: "My prediction: I'm seriously wondering (and hoping) if TGC will rewrite the whole fpsc engine in DGDK, and maybe it will be called fps creator 2.0 (or something cool like that) and maybe it will be up to par with AAA games (or at least AA). It would be a totally new product besides the regular fpsc (but still compatible with the current media, so users don't have to buy new packs) and have the same file structure."

That's just entirely unlikely. I don't see that ever happening. TGC has their new AppGameKit and that is, IMO, going to be their big seller. FPSC isn't going to be worked on enough for an entire rewrite.

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 1st Sep 2011 20:29
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Hey, I was walking about the FPSC boards when I found a post by Hockeykid (I think?) talking about how he had just written some new code to enhance FPSC in update 1.19! The code he wrote was to allow weapon objects (arrows, sticks, anything you might launch and would stick out of a wall) to stick out of a wall upon collision. So there WILL be a v1.19!

And I thought FPSC couldn't get any better...

So, what do you think will be in 1.19?

And you know, there's been a lot of talk about FPSC being abandoned in the next 2-5 years, but I am not so sure. For one thing, FPSC is fairly popular (more or less) compared to other TGC products. Take a look at the forums home page. You will see that the top 5 most commonly posted in boards are as follows (please remember that these are, of course, relative numbers, as we users are always posting ):

1) Geek Culture - 549,872 posts
2) DarkBASIC Professional Discussion - 331,205 posts
3) FPSC Models and Media - 212,791 posts
4) FPSC Product Chat - 209,966 posts
5) 3 Dimensional Chat - 114,107 posts

FPSC ranks pretty high on the list. This may not be a direct indication of sales, but with how popular it is, I don't think TGC would consider it a smart move to discontine FPSC.

Furthermore, look at how much media in The Game Creator Store is for FPSC. TGC makes money off of those sales, you know; 50% of the money you pay goes to TGC. And that's just when you make a transaction on the store. If you buy 2000 points ($20 USD) and spend it all that same day, TGC just made $30 USD from you that day. If FPSC was discontinued, the pool of users would eventually dry up, and hence, purchases on the GCS would decrease as well.

And let's not forget that they sell model packs as well. Though they can be used in DBPro, they are considered FPSC media and are advertised as such. The content walkthoughs are all in FPSC, NOT DBPro!

And about the graphics: Look, I would love a graphics update (as I have said previously). DX11 may be the future, but the future is just that, the future. It is not now. Furthermore, how many people actually have the latest computer? And for that matter, how many people have the latest graphics card on their computer?

The market for games for old computers never lasts forever, but we can make use of it while it is still around. Advertising games that work on a variety of computer systems is not, in my OPINION, a bad marketing strategy. You just have to say it right. It may not be COOL, but it might work. I don't know.

Anyway, FPSC I think will still be around in the future.

Thanks for listening,
Captain Coder

One of the most humbling days in your life will be the day you discover you AREN'T the best at what you love to do.
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elbow
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2011 21:31
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Hi

Two comments:

1. The FPSC community is nothing short of fantastic - TGC left it to its own devices to develop and the community came through brilliantly. Every time I log on there's been new models, services, advice, shaders, scripts or even tools! developed to strengthen the product by the community. To TGC it must seem that the R&D function has been outsourced to a GREAT development company, therefore...

2. In business, we categorise our companies according to profit and potential profit (the Boston Matrix):

Dogs - sell or close(Low profit, low future potential)
Question marks (Some profit now, unknown future potential)
Stars (Some profit now, but huge potential (AGK?) you focus most attention, resources and marketing here (See latest newsletter as case in point))
Cash cows (Good profit now, uncertain profit in the future) These we use to bankroll the stars.

FPSC is a cash cow as illustrated by Captain Coder. No company closes or sells a cash cow willingly, unless a new cash cow can yield more (AGK is a few years from there imho). What's more, this cash cow (FPSC) develops into a better product by itself - I wish I had one of those!

In short, FPSC should be safe for a few years from an internal strategic TGC point of view. But who knows what happens next?

Regards

eugene
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Kilgore
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Posted: 4th Sep 2011 18:44
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I think the future of FPSC all depends on attracting and keeping users, and there are two problems that new users face with FPSC currently:

1. The documentation is all over the place. There's the manual, the guides parts one and two, and tons of info on the forum that fills in a few of the blanks but not all (and the forum's search facility is poor). FPSC should have ONE definitive manual that gets properly updated with each release to include all the essentials.

2. This is the biggest problem -- there isn't an Official game to showcase FPSC and let new users see what can be done. New users see poor basic AI, clunky stock textures etc when they first try out the software. FPSC is way better than that. There's some truly excellent work out there from individual users, so why haven't TGC brought together a handful of the most talented forumers and had them work on a professional standard showcase game cromprising of several levels? I'm sure it wouldn't cost much more than some free store points to enlist help.

I think FPSC is excellent for what it is -- but it doesn't sell itself at all. If more can be done to attract and encourage new users then it will make more money. If it makes more money, the future should be exciting and see it grow further.
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xplosys
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Posted: 4th Sep 2011 19:46
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Quote: "there isn't an Official game to showcase FPSC and let new users see what can be done. New users see poor basic AI, clunky stock textures etc when they first try out the software. FPSC is way better than that. There's some truly excellent work out there from individual users, so why haven't TGC brought together a handful of the most talented forumers and had them work on a professional standard showcase game cromprising of several levels? I'm sure it wouldn't cost much more than some free store points to enlist help.
"


Excellent idea, but the issue is getting any complied FPSC game to run on any given system, XP, Vista, 7, 32 and 64bit. Until games will run without having to configure/update your brand-new computer, it may be best to stick to screen shots.

Brian.

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Wolf
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Posted: 4th Sep 2011 20:27
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Quote: "Until games will run without having to configure/update your brand-new computer, it may be best to stick to screen shots.
"


Everything I ever downloaded ran on my system. I only had a couple of issues on older Vishnu versions.

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 4th Sep 2011 23:18
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@elbow:

Quote: "The FPSC community is nothing short of fantastic "


Spot-on elbow! I like you business analysis demo as well - something to keep in mind in the future.

Quote: "the issue is getting any complied FPSC game to run on any given system"


There's also the huge file size. Some of us do not have unlimited bandwidth and therefore cannot download massive games without getting in trouble later. If there was a way to compress the games into much smaller versions, I would be downloading a lot more and it would make the option of downloading an "official" game much more viable.

@Wolf:

Quote: "Everything I ever downloaded ran on my system. I only had a couple of issues on older Vishnu versions."


You must have a pretty good computer Wolf. I tried playing Beyond Life (it came with the DGS package) and I always get as far as the loading screen before it stops working. Everything else is too big/takes too long to download.

Captain Coder

One of the most humbling days in your life will be the day you discover you AREN'T the best at what you love to do.
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Hamburger
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Joined: 23rd Jun 2009
Location: Grand Rapids MI
Posted: 4th Sep 2011 23:40
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Quote: "There's also the huge file size. Some of us do not have unlimited bandwidth and therefore cannot download massive games without getting in trouble later. If there was a way to compress the games into much smaller versions, I would be downloading a lot more and it would make the option of downloading an "official" game much more viable.

"


I have compiled my games onto an installer, made an autorun for it, and burned both files onto a data cd using Nero Startsmart and it works like a real game, plus you can make your own cases and labels and stuff. Trust me, it really works. And the installer also compresses all of the data so its not a huge download of you were to upload it to the internet.

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Captain Coder
FPSC Reloaded TGC Backer
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Playing: Elite: Dangerous
Posted: 5th Sep 2011 15:29
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I found HockyKid's post! Here's the link: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=188738&b=21

Quote: "I just added non-exploding flak to V119, (http://code.google.com/p/fpscreatorengine/source/detail?r=458) "


One of the most humbling days in your life will be the day you discover you AREN'T the best at what you love to do.
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Wolf
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Location: Luxemburg
Posted: 5th Sep 2011 15:35
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Quote: "You must have a pretty good computer Wolf. I tried playing Beyond Life (it came with the DGS package) and I always get as far as the loading screen before it stops working. Everything else is too big/takes too long to download."


Not really... Its a 5 year old rig and didn't cost me much back then.

Its a quadcore something with an nvidia 9something GTX Graphics card and 3 gigabyte ram.

I played Beyond Life on my singlecore ages age...haven't had much problems with it.

I often joke that I have a magic FPSC installation. It almost never crashes and builds the largest things. I'm starting to think that it really is magic, because I have another FPSC installation on the exact same computer to work with Marc Steene on his project...and it causes nothing but troubles.



-Wolf

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xplosys
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Playing: FPSC Multiplayer Games
Posted: 5th Sep 2011 16:35
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Quote: "Everything I ever downloaded ran on my system. I only had a couple of issues on older Vishnu versions."


I think the biggest issue right now is DirectX9. We who use FPSC have already updated for it, but new computers don't come with it.

Brian.

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Wolf
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Posted: 5th Sep 2011 17:23
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Quote: "We who use FPSC have already updated for it, but new computers don't come with it.
"


Isn't this supposed to be integrated into newer direct X versions?

I make serious coffee - so strong it wakes up the neighbors.
http://serygalacaffeine.deviantart.com/
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