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Geek Culture / Can't wait for Holographic games?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 03:52
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Niether could I

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TKF15H
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 04:09
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Hey, that's neat... How long do you think it will take for its price to drop enough for the average gamer? 10 years?

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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 04:55
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It uses the old red/blue color shifting technology to give a weak 3dish look to things. Pretty stupid IMO considering the price. All it is is an eye sore, like watching one of those bloody '3d' movies.

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Wiggett
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 04:58
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vr would prolly be more likely to come out sooner, but then again holographic would probably be much cooler. considering vr has had some problems with burning someones retinas. . i just read the stuff about what it does, sound pretty awesome, but how does it run they dont show :/



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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 05:39
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Mouse your sort of right and sort of completely wrong

the 3D Specs worked by taking a greyscale image, on that you super impose Yellow->Blue Green->Red depending on depth of the picture outlines based on the 32° FOV eyes have.
you then put a colour film over each eye and it blots out one picture and your left with a slightly coloured version of the picture for each eye which your brain will then try to translate into a 3D view.

how this work is essentially you have 2 monitors on depth layers, each layer corrisponds to a particular eye fov... there is probably more to it but thats what i could assertain from the little idiots sketch of it.
Essentially similar to polarisation strips, using the LCD's own technology to block certain angles allowing the picture to only be recieved by a single eye.

however it works, your field of view for it to be 3D isn't just right front on ... it works on ANYTHING, as i saw the WindowsXP desktop in nVidia's StereoView certainly feels weird but cool.
It works right upto 32/48bit Colour Desktops, best of all your able to edit the depth percieved.
really its one of those things that has to be "seen to be believed"
i've never used the Stereo Glasses but i'm told its very similar to that.

it looks very much like your monitor is simply a box with a whole world in it - very very clever stuff

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 18:30
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This is nothing like those blue/red glasses. It works like one of those little animated cardboard pictures. You move them from side to side, and a dinosaur or something turns his head. This monitor is made in the same way, with the screen split into triangles which send a different picture to each eye. It would only work if you dont move your head too much. Not a bad idea, I'd need to try it before I bought it.

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BatVink
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 19:06
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The latest films use polarisation - the light intended for the right eye is "aligned" vertically, the light for the left eye is horizontal. The glasses have polarising lenses aligned in the appropriate direction. This way, it doesn't depend on colour, and you can watch the film in full technicolour.

Technically, I believe this is actually more about light frequency than direction.

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Van B
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 19:10
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All 3D illusions work the same way, by seperating the left and right eye images and transmitting them to each eye - David89 even did it in DBPro with old fashioned 3D specs, and 2 colour filtered sprites created from additional cameras - each showing an eyes view each. Some systems are not very good for your eyes, in fact old cardboard and pastic goggles are about the safest 3D gear you can get. Some systems would make you wear some headgear and it simply shows a different image for each eye, like VR - or some even flicker a shutter on each eye - like Continental Circus in the arcades. It had a really crud system like that - you have to look through a visor thing that shuts one eye off and reveals the other eye - so your only looking through one eye at a time.

The most advanced system for holographic images I've seen was in the arcade about a decade ago - it was like a glass topped table with a sorta hood in one corner, the image was projected through the glass, but it looked very cool and very Star Wars like.

Personally, I can't really deal with 3D gear because my eyeball got speared when I was a kid, meaning one pupil is slightly slower than the other, I just get migranes because my left eye can't react as quickly as the right. So I reckon I'll keep my $2000 for another couple of decades until they discover howto do hard light holograms ala Red Dwarf .


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spooky
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 20:08
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Ah yes I remember Time Traveler in the arcades.



You can buy a DVD version with 3d glasses apparantly!

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 21:17
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there's a hologram sphere too if you have a spare $45,000
thats something i wouldn't mind seeing ... as everything is begining to get back to TRUE 3D and Holographics, my bet is that graphics card companies suchas ATI, Matrox, SonicBlue and Nvidia are going to start delving into these areas more and more in an attempted to bring THE most ground breaking stuff.

however this is unlike anything i've seen before, unlike those turning moving pictures it doesn't hurt my eyes ... it really does look very much like those holograms you get in keychains and such only in full 32bit colour
was cool to see a Warcraft3 battlefield almost touchable like it was Warhammer - was Trés Cool

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Dsarchy
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 21:18
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Lets see I have £20 which is what $33ish. Thats leaves me $1636 short. I think i might stick to my glasses for now. Any money though if it does turn out to be bid everyone will have them in 20 years time.

?
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Dsarchy
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 21:19
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big*

?
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Damokles
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 21:23
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I saw some kind of glass cube, where you could see a holographic "picture" of a car, from all sides. It was some experiment in a physic lab at the university. Looked pretty cool, but no colors

"Begin at the beginning, and go on till you come to the end: then stop." - Lewis Carroll
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2003 21:25
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Well most of the newer generation TFT monitors of next year will have it, seperating the classes of TFT2D and TFT3D.
To be honest TFT is still a little too expensive for most people, but is a good toy for businesses and the richer gamers

The monitors are only actually what the original TFT monitors cost, so i'd say just in a year when they become a wider specification just like CRT and FST they'll then get alot cheaper.
The past year along most TFTs have droped around $200-300 in price which is cool.

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heartbone
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 01:03
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http://www.actuality-systems.com/


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Jess T
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 11:42 Edited at: 23rd Oct 2003 12:03
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So, Raven, you've actually seen one of these monitors then?

I would love to go out and buy one right now... I'm so tempted... But i can't... NO!...

Ok, anyway, I only have about USD $850 (AUD $1200), so i cant afford it, but that's what credit cards are for...

I need to either see one of these monitors or read some fascinating stuff about it, before I'll be convinced to buy one...

Quote: "It works like one of those little animated cardboard pictures. You move them from side to side, and a dinosaur or something turns his head"


Not quite...

From my understanding of the descriptions and the images... It has a panel that is about 1 or 2 inches behind the actuall screen, this panel has horizontal "lights" about every 5 or so pixels which, when they are on, don't shine through the pixels directly infront of them, but through the pixels slightly to the left (for the left eye) and to the right (for the right eye) of where the light itself it is... This may explain it a bit better:




In that fashion, every pixel is covered and is then emiting light to the right-hand side of the face for the images that go with the right eye and is emiting light to the left-hand side of the face for the images that go with the left eye. Then, when your brain overlaps those images (giving you your binocular vision, and depth perception), the slight descrepancies of the images go together to make the image **apear** to be 3-Dimensional, and creating an image "inside" the monitor, giveing it a truely 3D look.

But, if you were to move to the sides, so that your left eye was in the right eye reigon, or visa-versa, you would see both images through one eye and therefore the depth perception for that eye would be lost completely, and it would look like a see-through 2-Dimensional image is hovering over part of the monitor. Much like if you hold your hand about a foot or so from your eye, and focus on somethign in the distance, you will see a see-through image apear of your hand just to the side of the real-looking 3-Dimensional (obviously) image of your hand that you can see through both of your eyes...

That's my two cents...

PS If im wrong, or someone has a better means of explaingin this, feel free to correct me


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Van B
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 11:44
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I got my TFT for £50 .

I've seen 15" TFT monitors for as little as £160 these days, I think a lot of gamers still have a problem with them, probably because of poor laptop displays they think that the refresh rate is too slow for gaming. Not true though, TFT kicks CRT's ass in every respect except price.

That big knarly globe looks cool - can't imagine playing a game in complete 3D, I've never even used VR!. Imagine though - MonkeyBall in an actual globe in full 3D, just sit there with a globe and rotate it naturally to control the game.


Van-B

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Jess T
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 12:07
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You know, soon, all this holographic stuff will get so good, that it'll replace reality in almost every sence except that we would know it wasn't real... Rather like Star Trek... We aren't too far off of that technology yet (I know, we still have decades to go... But think about it, if we have that technology in 30 years, that is one hell of an advancement from the television 50 years ago...).

Its kinda eary though...


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Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 12:59
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Wow I wonder how they generate that 3d shadow underneath the monitor, truly amazing

BUt seriously a game is projected 2d onto the moitor, if you had a 3d monitor (or whatever) you couldnt see the scene from the side. right?

*is confuseded now*

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Dave J
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 13:52
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I recall seeing a incredibly great pair of those 3D glasses that made Raven Shield look so bloody realistic it was unbeleivable. The only problem was the glasses didn't sit on your head very well.


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Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 14:56
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I highly dought it'll 'trechy' just yet, they still gonna add 3d sound, and more inmportant, 3d touch.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 23rd Oct 2003 15:16
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you ever heard EAX3.0 and quite frankly Surround doesn't get any better than that.
and OpenAL 1.0 using EAX 1.0 actually sounds pretty realistic too, been using it in a new project of mine ... you can almost feel like you right there in the game just using 2 speakers and an ordinary sound card

but still nothing beats Audigy2mx 8.1 (^_^)
this isn't hyper expensive to add its simply because its new that its so outragously expensive atm. Just look at how quickly TFTs have dropping just the past year. This is going to be come the next step technology simply because it is fully backward compatible with current and old technology.

thats what tends to get things to be "keepers" in the PC world... and no doubt why x86 isn't being dropped anytime soon
as for the 3D Touch, there is that 3D Mouse you can get - motion sentitive with 4buttons ... i'm sure if it got popular would think about adding a rechargable rumblepak

personally i think there should be gamer keyboard & mice with FFB, and i know there's that Logitech one - but even my old 286 Longshire mouse is better than that thing for a computer lol.
Something that doesn't weigh 2tonnes (by design) has an optical tracker... and is USB.
they keyboard having 4 rumblers, 2weak, 2 strong - if it was in a standard keyboard it would be something that most gamers would get, especially if they don' try to charge us $35 for a keyboard that normally costs $15 without the rumble features.
That always peeved me off, that they just ripp PC owners off on such technology.

Rumblepad for the PC $25 for the PS2 $15 ... might just be $10 but when the PC ones aren't exactly available everywhere (or even anywhere) gets annoying.

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Fallout
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 01:28
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The technology sounds wicked, but surely it can't work as you guys have been suggesting. If it sends an image to each eye, then you're gonna have to be sittng an exact distance away and in an exact position.You only have to move your head two or three increase to the left and your right eye is where your left eye was.

If that's how it works, how bad would it be to have to sit motionless like a stuffed prune for the entire performance?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:36
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lol ... i'm not entirely sure of the exact dynamics around it, all i know is what i've seen.
It works pretty well even upto some extreme angles from the monitor, you don't need to sit still or anything.

Essentially it feels like in the monitor you have a box, and then it is projecting that image within that box for you. It is freaky to look at but really cool once you get used to it.

Tell you what alot of my games now seem pretty crappy lol

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Fallout
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 03:40
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So if you move around a bit, do you get a different perspective on the image, or does the image always appear the same (as if its always pointing at you)?

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:12
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Up to 1024 x 768 resolution

16.7 million display colors

...i would never use that

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 04:16
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the perspective appears to change, its what give it the depth
buggered if i know how it works past the technicals - but its a very clever trick.

Quote: "upto 1024 x 768 x 32
...i would never use that"

Why not? Quite frankly i don't see the point in everyone going for hyper-high resolutions. The only reason you do it is for sharper and more lifelike graphics right?

1024x768x32 FSAA 4x AF 8x with Stereo3D quite frankly looks far better than 1600x1200x32 FSAA0x AF8x will anyday.

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the_winch
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 05:24
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http://www.dti3d.com/faq.asp

Quote: "Q: Do I have to keep my head in a single position to see stereo?
A: No. As is implied by the diagram, one has a few inches of space in which to move laterally and several inches front and back. In addition, you can move several feet up and down (limited only by the off axis visibility characteristics of the LCD). In fact, if you just sit directly in front of the display at about 30� away, as you normally do with any display, you will be in a position where you see 3D. There are also areas to the either side where you can see 3D. We have found that up to six people can view 3D at once; three sitting and three standing."


As for how it works
http://www.dti3d.com/technology.asp
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Ian T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 06:51
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'That big knarly globe looks cool - can't imagine playing a game in complete 3D, I've never even used VR!. Imagine though - MonkeyBall in an actual globe in full 3D, just sit there with a globe and rotate it naturally to control the game.'

Sounds clunky and slow. I'll take the tried and true monitor and keyboard .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 09:57
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Quote: "MonkeyBall in an actual globe in full 3D, just sit there with a globe and rotate it naturally to control the game"


Hmm... why do i suddenly get the urge to watch gladiators?

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Jess T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 11:49
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So, raven, my question still stands, have you actually seen one of these monitors?


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Van B
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 12:15
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Mouse,
If they ever managed to do something like that, it'd be freakin huge!

Monkey Ball is a game about a monkey in a ball, rolling around a newbie style matrix collecting bananas, it's one of those addictive playable, Nintendo games. It's played by tilting the level and the ball sorta rolls accordingly, your not really controlling the ball, your controlling the level. If you had a globe and the ball was fixed in the middle, then you rotated the globe to roll the ball around, that'd be awesome, imagine the level of control you'd have! - the technology is years away, but it's certainly the way things are going.


Van-B

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 12:41
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yes, else i wouldn't have posted about it and i DID say that in the first post

the quote Winch posted really explains the visual range, which makes it sound more limited than it actually is. if you don't have a TFT monitor then perhaps you have a newer Cellphone - and if you turn them far enough the screen appears to disappear and even further will invert the colours.
essentially that is exactly how this is, but then that the TFT technology and not a limitation with the 3D Tech.

this is the whole reason i said there aren't really any visual problems with moving around - if you can see the screen at full colours on the TFT then you'll be able to see the 3D properly

as for the technology being years away for the monkeyball, they could makes it identical to how they make trackball mice ... technology is already available and easily accessable - just would be expensive is all.

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Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 13:09
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Erm just how is it possible for the game to be in "real" 3d (you can see the image frm the side), just thnking that then they would have to render ALOT more and any game would run slow, kinda seems pointless.

*pats big fat old monitor*

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Jess T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 13:13 Edited at: 24th Oct 2003 13:30
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sorry, it's just that in the first post all i can see is:
Quote: "Niether could I "



So, you would recomend it to others? ignoring the price of course?

I really want one... but i can't afford it just atm, and by the time i CAN afford it, the price will probably have dropped down to $50 and every house in the world will have one except for me, who'll be picking up the 5cent peices from the train station floor... LoL...

But seriously... Do you know where i could see one?
Remebering that i live in Aus... Is there like a site that shows you locations of the technology on display or something?

Thanks man...


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 13:30
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dunno where they're shown publically, i've just got one to tinker with at work atm
everyone else is distracted with "playtesting" and bug fixxing to worry about what i'm doing, hehee
so i've got free riegn of all of the techy here.

If you imagine the Monitor is around 2" deep ... yet the way it is designed for the 3D you can add the perspective which means that when you look into it, you perceive it as if the screen is just a window and everything inside it is just another room if you like (except with bad jaggies lol)

so its like looking inside of a box or through a window in a wall really... everything on the other side looks 3D but doesn't pop out of the monitor at you.
Thought when you get flying vehicles comming at you driving at 50mph you do, do that head jerk back ... you know its going to disappear into the screen but its kinda a reflex hehee

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Joeyjoejoe Shabadoo
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 13:34
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Ill belive it when I see it, since playing "house of the dead 2" on a big acrace screen in a booth makes me do that head jerk back when the zombies are trying to bite me, good fun.

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Jess T
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Posted: 24th Oct 2003 13:35
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I take it that you work for Blizzard by your web-link... or is that just there to confuse people with simple minds, like me?


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
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