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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Why can't FPSC handle outdoor scene (not Theoretically)

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Bibo4PC
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 01:24
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Hi everyone,

Many had complains about FPSC and how it can't process huge outdoor scene, my question is Why can't it?

what's so different between FPSC and other engines, personally I think FPSC is perfect the way it is but just want to know why in a technical way to prove a point of view..

sure I know it's because the presence of too many polygons in the scene but other engines seem to handle it well, so what's the difference between them and FPSC..

Thank You..

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srealist
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 01:28
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I've had no problems making outdoor scenes that use the whole map in x10 and maintain high frame rates. Using fog and/or large obstacles (like rocks, etc.) to section off certain areas can help performance.
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GreenDixy
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 01:49
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dont forget to use invisible segments they help alot

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ASTECH
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 02:23
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Ask the dude who made the BFBC2 remake. I'm sure he has tons of tips.

Whoever said that Intel graphics fail, obviously never owned a Core i5.
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Bibo4PC
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 02:43
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It's not a complain not at all, I actually happen to know how to trick FPSC to make great outdoor scenes.. but it's a known issue that FPSC (X9 at least) can't handle large outdoor scenes or to be exact scenes with huge number of polygons and I just wanted to know why (in a technical way)..

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Wolf
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 03:24 Edited at: 27th Aug 2011 03:24
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nevermind

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Bugsy
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 04:44
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<shameless screenshot plug>

if you learn how to optimize properly, FPSC can handle outdoor scenes just as well as indoor scenes, AND they look nicer

imageflock.com/img/1314217093.jpg[/img]
imageflock.com/img/1306449245.jpg[/img]
imageflock.com/img/1312261172.jpg[/img]

all of these are under 80k polys in scene, and run perfectly

</shameless screenshot plug>

imageflock.com/img/1303928322.png[/img]
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Braden 713
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 04:54 Edited at: 27th Aug 2011 04:55
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Quote: "I actually happen to know how to trick FPSC to make great outdoor scenes.. but it's a known issue that FPSC (X9 at least) can't handle large outdoor scenes or to be exact scenes with huge number of polygons and I just wanted to know why (in a technical way).."


I don't think he was looking for screenshots of your work

Life would be much easier if I had the source code.
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Bugsy
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 07:30
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which is why the shameless plug tags
a guy's gotta shamelessly plug!

I just love threads where we talk about outdoor level design in fpsc because I feel like it's such an unexplored medium, anyone's progress or revelations on the matter is excellent discussion material. I can definitely appreciate anyone's techniques, and like to share my own.

imageflock.com/img/1303928322.png[/img]
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Akanto10
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 07:37 Edited at: 27th Aug 2011 07:37
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Just a question, but how do invisible segments help?

Thanks,
Akanto

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Bugsy
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 07:51
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segments work with FPSC's culling system to cut out unseen/unneeded geometry. placing invisible ones inside a building blocking the players view to the rest of the map, will make the culling engine think it isn't meant to be seen, and not render it. this allows you to detail your maps more.

imageflock.com/img/1303928322.png[/img]
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Akanto10
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 08:05
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I see, that's clever.

Thanks,
Akanto

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Sting
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 10:26
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With some optimisation like the brilliant examples above you can achieve an optimum (at least) framerate, however, the main reason for the lag on outdoor/large areas is a) Portals b) No Caulking

Portals are mapped out upon render to enable the engine to show only what the user would see, however there is no caulking (a technique used in Q3 particular) which was an OpenGL engine and it allows for the entire universe to be drawn in real-time rather than pre-rendered portals.

This is a DirectX engine so the odds of this happening are quite slim, probably due to the limitations of DBP too.

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Northern
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 18:09
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Hello Bibo4PC,

Responding in a simplified way your question, also the problem lies in the programming language used to make the FPSC in this case, the Basic programming language (an Interpreted Language) as well as the level of optimization its language interpreter.

If you wish you will can get more information about this subject in the following links:

*Comparing Popular Programming Languages

http://cplus.about.com/od/introductiontoprogramming/a/comparelangs.htm

*Interpreter (computing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpreter_(computing)

I hope this may help to clarify your question.

Northern
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Hockeykid
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 19:21 Edited at: 27th Aug 2011 19:25
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Quote: "also the problem lies in the programming language used to make the FPSC in this case"


Not exactly, its very possible to make a "FPS Creator" in DBPro with good FPS. The problem is because of bad optimization.

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Dar13
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 20:04
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Quote: "Basic programming language (an Interpreted Language)"


Dark Basic Pro compiles to machine code. Dark Basic Classic is interpreted.

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srealist
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 20:17
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Quote: "segments work with FPSC's culling system to cut out unseen/unneeded geometry. placing invisible ones inside a building blocking the players view to the rest of the map, will make the culling engine think it isn't meant to be seen, and not render it. this allows you to detail your maps more."


Awesome tip right here! Hadn't thought about that before.
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bruce3371
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 21:29
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I have a large outdoor level which needs optimising, but I have a question regarding the whole invisible walls issue; because there are large gaps between my buildings, would filling surrounding those large gaps with invisible walls & segments just create more polys?

Is there a trade off between adding lots of invisible walls and ceilings to 'block the player's view', and adding to the poly count?

I must admit, I have trouble getting my head around the fact that invisible and therefore see-through walls somehow block the player's view

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Bugsy
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 23:04
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invisible walls inside the buildings that block off an area. this way the area behind it is culled.

imageflock.com/img/1303928322.png[/img]
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spudnick
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Posted: 27th Aug 2011 23:42 Edited at: 27th Aug 2011 23:47
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Hi guys. just to mention that im creating a game with full editor map levels, in other words massive maps that are maily out side,

1 map is D-Day landing Sword beach with 7 layers, 1 layer is of water with boats, and there are large cliffs all on the beach front with Gun Bunkers proper swaying grass and high detailed sand extra, wow the map is bigo,
and it is all about making what is needed to keep the frame rate good by Testing and octimizing and tesing endlessly

And so my main tips are use triggers to activate charcters as needed and that it the main challange to good frame rates, as each character can use about 1-2 frame rate resources when active.

Second tip for large maps it dont' use super high qualty sky maps that bloat the distance,

and thirdly as and when is use the same model but change the texture in the entity settings
And Finaly Use DDS image files in your textures, as they are a lot smaller that Jpeg,tga,bmp and are more widly used in other big company game engines too cus they have many advantages. here is a Link on why DDS should be used.
http://www.modwiki.net/wiki/DDS_(file_format)

Anyway you can have a look at my Wip here to see parts of my large maps
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=187298&b=25

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Bibo4PC
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 03:15
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Thank you all for replying..

@Hockeykid, Northern: that's exactly my point of question, am actually a software programmer but not a very good physicist or mathematician to understand the various algorithms required to pull off an engine..

anyway @Northern you mentioned that FPSC was written in BASIC, but am pretty sure that I've read somewhere that Darkbasic was developed using C++..

@Hockeykid: what kind of optimization do u mean? like regular common design tips (using invisible segments, use DDS.. etc) or source code optimizations?

I know this is taking a while, and again TY all but am not asking if FPSC can make outdoor scenes, I know that with proper design it can make medium outdoor scenes but to be more clear my question actually isn't for FPSC users it's for Darkbasic or C++ programmers (starting to think I posted in the wrong place )

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TheDesertEagle
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 03:21 Edited at: 28th Aug 2011 03:27
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Yes,you did post this in the wrong place and the answers above are pretty much useless if this isnt about FPS creator correct me if im wrong guys.

Joey-May god have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.
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Bibo4PC
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 03:21
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srry for double post but to be more clear for FPSC users, take bugsy's map for example

imageflock.com/img/1312261172.jpg[/img]

ok multiply its size by 4, add water, activate Bloom, dynamic lights, add 20-30 characters and finally with full shaders on..

FPSC would actually slaughter the one who did this
my question is simply, if other engines can do it so why can't FPSC.. how do other engines process that huge amount of data keeping the game at 60 frames per second?! what technique do they use?

TY..

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Bibo4PC
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 03:23
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Quote: "Yes,you did post this in the wrong place and the answers above are preety much useless if this isnt about FPS creator correct me if im wrong guys."


in a way it is about FPSC but just FPSC developers not users.. should've cleared that up in the topic title.. srry..

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TheDesertEagle
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 03:26
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maybe.. if their CPU a good one it would'nt "slaughter" them.

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Bibo4PC
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 03:39
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Again sorry for TRIPLE posting but I just wanted to say why I actually asked maybe it will clear things even more..

as some of you may know I've been away for a while and actually was thinking of changing the engine for my upcoming game, but now that v118 is released I personally find it one of the most incredible FPS engines out there.. I mean what's missing?

Full screen shaders, Object shaders, Water, Dark Voices plugged in, GUI and a lot more, really you can't expect anymore from a 20$ engine.. and actually with the proper team it's capable of remaking COD or MOH all over again, I can actually can bet that there's nothing this engine can't do with smart scripting and small darkbasic knowledge..

but comes the only obstacle which is handling (ENORMOUS) outdoor scenes.. what makes MOHAA of COD2 so great are the huge battlefields and enormous terrains, two things FPSC just can't handle.. so all I'm saying is where is the problem? if it's simple am sure TGC would have done it by now but am guessing it's not so I just want to understand this problem in programming terms that's all, as I mentioned earlier I actually have a pretty good background in software programming yet nearly no knowledge on game development..

TY..

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Bibo4PC
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 03:42 Edited at: 28th Aug 2011 03:43
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Quote: "maybe.. if their CPU a good one it would'nt "slaughter" them."


well u think but actually it isn't true, my PC for example runs COD4 perfectly, but when it comes to FPSC it's REALLY hard to keep the fps over 30 when I overload the engine (full texture quality and full screen shaders on and maybe 10 characters in scene).. not to mention how long it takes to load..

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TheDesertEagle
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 03:55
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Look at this screenshot
im not that good with mapping on FPS Creator for i am new to this system but look at it.
and remeber 1 thing this is NOT COD engine its FPS Creator

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TheDesertEagle
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 04:01
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and another screen

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Bibo4PC
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 04:12
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there's barely ANYTHING in the scene..

http://imageflock.com/img/1312261172.jpg
Quote: "ok multiply its size by 4, add water, activate Bloom, dynamic lights, add 20-30 characters and finally with full shaders on.."


and I actually know it's not a COD engine my question is simply (what makes it NOT an engine worthy of COD4 for ex "programically" -I don't even know if that's a word - maybe it's better to say programming wise).. it supports all techniques used in COD, and as I also mentioned earlier I see no problem that with a respectable amount of effort and the right team COD can actually be remade..

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TheDesertEagle
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 04:15
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ill make a bigger level THEN ill show you

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Dar13
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 04:19
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Quote: "FPSC was written in BASIC, but am pretty sure that I've read somewhere that Darkbasic was developed using C++."


FPSC was written in Dark Basic Professional, a BASIC language that compiles to machine code.
Dark Basic Professional was written in C++.

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Bibo4PC
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 04:25 Edited at: 28th Aug 2011 04:28
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Quote: "ill make a bigger level THEN ill show you"

it's not just size, plz read my post carefully.. I've used FPSC for almost 3 years now, dig more into old topics and u'll find out that it's actually common knowledge that FPSC can't handle huge amounts of data, it's kinda FACT actually..

Quote: "FPSC was written in Dark Basic Professional, a BASIC language that compiles to machine code.
Dark Basic Professional was written in C++.
"

oh thanks for clearing that up.. do u have by any chance any experience in either one of them (darkbasic or C++)?
Thank You..

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Bugsy
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 09:45
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Quote: "ok multiply its size by 4, add water, activate Bloom, dynamic lights, add 20-30 characters and finally with full shaders on.."


that map had about 80k polys
times 4 and it's at 360000, use proper optimization and culling techniques and it won't be over 180k at any time
add as many enemies as you want, as long as they're triggered and not all of them are active at once
I'm using theK's custom "light bloom/filmgrain/blue tint" canalyst full screen shader, and yes shaders are on.
there already is water in the map

still would run at 60 fps on any half-decent machine

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firelord
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 16:17
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My question is the invisible and culling techniques how is this acheived...do i create a culling wall the size of the inside of the building or just a small wall...just would like to know how to get a better frame rate with big levels so if someone can explain how its possible..sorry for jacking the thread but it seems better to put my question in this thread as the title explains what i want to achieve..thanks..
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Bugsy
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Posted: 28th Aug 2011 19:58
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pretty much make entire invisible rooms around your level's sections.

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firelord
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 00:37
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so i have a building and i put basicly a invisible wall on the intior interia of the building then...?
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TheDesertEagle
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Posted: 29th Aug 2011 01:14
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Quote: "it's not just size, plz read my post carefully.. I've used FPSC for almost 3 years now, dig more into old topics and u'll find out that it's actually common knowledge that FPSC can't handle huge amounts of data, it's kinda FACT actually.."

Yes its true

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Vandaarc
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FPSC is basically optimized for indoor scenes, using the segments as reference for culling and portals to show just the needed, keeping your poly count to the acceptable minimum. Outdoor scenes, however, use entities, which the engine can't use as a reference for culling purposes (unless the invisible wall trick above is used).

Other engines that handle indoor and outdoor scenes equally were specifically coded for those purposes, using a rather different render method that dynamically culls unseen geometry using a very different algorithm from FPSC.

Simply put, FPSC's performance relies on the creation of portals via segments, and therefor wasn't truly designed for outdoor levels. As has been mentioned above, there are many workarounds, however.
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Pbcrazy
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Posted: 31st Aug 2011 03:26
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Pretty much what Vandaarc said.

You also have to consider that most of the other engines (Frostbite 3, UDK, CryEngine, etc) were built from the ground up (from the barebones DirectX or OpenGL) in C++, and tweaked at the lowest level possible to run most efficiently.

If you wanted FPSC to have proper outdoor scenes (without work arounds and tricks and what have you), you'd need to add in proper occlusion culling for starters (rather than the current portal culling), and probably add in a few fancy plugins like BlitzTerrain and DarkImposters (or write your own). There's also the issue that FPSC is written in DBPro, which just isn't quite the same as writing from scratch in C++...
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Dar13
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2011 03:39
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Quote: "do u have by any chance any experience in either one of them (darkbasic or C++)?"


I have some experience in DBP, and a bit more than that in C++.

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Captain Coder
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Posted: 4th Sep 2011 23:27
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There is a lot of praise here of invisible segments. I would like to use them (as soon as I fix FPSC). But, two questions first:

1) How do I create an invisible segment?

2) If I shoot at an invisible wall, won't there be what looks like a floating bullet hole?

Thanks,
Captain Coder

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Vandaarc
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Hi Captain Coder.

1) You can make an invisible segment by copying one of the stock segments' fps files, renaming it to something like INVISIBLE and replacing its texture data (texture0, texture1 etc.) with a fully transparent texture.

2) Since the invisible segments are usually placed in areas which the player will never reach, this should not be too much of a problem. To be on the safe side, however, you can change the segment's material index to 0, which leaves a very tiny bullet hole.

I hope this has been of some help.

Regards,
Vandaarc
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skeeter
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who else here likes muffins?

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maho76
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Posted: 6th Sep 2011 17:45 Edited at: 6th Sep 2011 17:49
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just a few questions because i use another method to get no probs in outdoors (http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=186092&b=21)

what are the benefits of the invisible-wall-thing? what problems do we get in outdoor that invisible walls help?
polycount grows rapidly when you use inv.walls for a whole map (20x20x20), i dont think its a good way except this doesnt matter, but i cant believe that the additional polys dont cause trouble in calculation and fps.

90% of the levels of my game are outdoor, so it would be helpful when i know where i have to look for errors. at the moment there are some bugs seen in my basic level (enemies stuck 1lv above the stairs etc.), but no performance probs against indoor creations.

any hints where i have to look for?
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Captain Coder
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Posted: 6th Sep 2011 20:26
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Thanks Vandaarc!

And thanks maho76! I'll remember that to.

Captain Coder

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Bugsy
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@maho- this is interesting, and I'll have to experiment with it
@skeeter- I love muffins!

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TheDesertEagle
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Quote: "skeeter- I love muffins!"

LOL

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Inspire
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Has anybody confirmed that the visoverlay method worked?

It's been a while since I've been into the dark recesses of FPSC, so I have a few questions.

I remember in the earlier versions, you could hit tab to bring up a debugging menu, then hit another button to see a wireframe of the whole map. How do you do that with the new debugging menu?

Also, is there any reason to use invisible segments if you are constructing your outdoor area out of segments? Would you recommend not using segments, and instead use a large entity with a tiling texture, and hide invisible walls underneath?

Thanks, if you can answer these questions.

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TheDesertEagle
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Years of Service
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Joined: 7th Jul 2011
Location: Canada - Who knows where else???
Posted: 11th Sep 2011 04:08
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I just found out that pressing the [ or ] will enable the wireframe sadly my player drowned after that

Joey-May god have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.
Favourite Game-Call Of Duty MW2
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