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3 Dimensional Chat / Normal/Texture Mapping Questions.

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Phantom887
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2011 08:38
I hope this is in the right topic. If not, I apologize.

I've been trying to read up a lot on texture and I'm more confused than when I started. I have a few questions I just want to clear up and would appreciate any help.

1. Does a normal map store height information, or purely RGB colors?

2. How do you match up a normal map to a texture map so that they fit right with complex and subtle textures, such as sand on a beach?

3. If the normal maps don't store height information, do the textures themselves? Or is that technique reserved for fancy DX11 displacement mapping graphics, and we have to make do with 2D illusions that make it LOOK like there are craters and bumps in the sand?

I just feel the need to say how great this community is, and thanks in advance for any answers! (Oh God now that I said that nobody's going to answer, right?)
PirateJohn
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2011 08:48
I'm not sure what you mean by beach sand being a subtle texture. You're not suggesting that grains of sand be rendered as 3-D objects, are you? That would be prohibitive, and is best rendered as you mention in #3, by setting up the 2D texture to have its own shading. It is much faster to process and, unless you're creating the scene from, say, the perspective of an ant, is just as good if not better.

In fact, beach sand is very easy to render in Photoshop.
Phantom887
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Posted: 4th Sep 2011 00:06 Edited at: 4th Sep 2011 00:10
Oh God no! I mean, individual grains of sand would be amazing, but you wouldn't be able to render more than a square inch of it! It would be something like having a 2D texture actually change the shape of the terrain under it. From what I understand this is a fairly new DX11 technique.

So from what you're saying, I gather than shading a 2D texture will give it a decent illusions of being 3D?

(When I said subtle texture I was talking about all the little divits and bumps in real life beach sand.)
revenant chaos
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Posted: 4th Sep 2011 18:10
Quote: "Does a normal map store height information, or purely RGB colors?"
Neither, the pixels (colors) of a normal map depict surface angles (normals).

The shader's lighting calculations then use that information decide how much light will have fallen onto each point of the object based on the distance and angle between the light and the surface.

Displacement, Parallax, and Relief mapping shaders use height information to cause a surface to actually look pitted, but they each come with their own issues. Parallax mapping has a weird "texture swimming" effect when the camera is allowed to get too close. Relief mapping can look really "choppy" from steep angles (from the way it is drawn in layers). Normal mapping is the fastest of the bunch, and looks good from all angles.
They are all possible from within DX9, and have been done many times. Some awesome demos can be found on Evolved's site: http://www.evolved-software.com/.

Quote: "How do you match up a normal map to a texture map so that they fit right with complex and subtle textures, such as sand on a beach?"
The shader would use the same UV coordinates for each texture, as each texture should be layed out identically.

Quote: "If the normal maps don't store height information, do the textures themselves?"
Some shaders use the normal map's alpha channel for height information, while others use an additional heightmap texture. It really is up to whoever coded the shader.
Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 5th Sep 2011 01:40
Never actually got how normal maps really work, all i know how to do is make them on GIMP

But i thought normal maps did store height info :S otherwise, they couldn't give the illusion of extra detail.

My Mind is very odd, it can memorize hundreds of commands, memorize 2 dictionary's worth of words, and make detailed 3D models. Yet my mind has trouble with the most simple calculations.
Hamburger
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Posted: 5th Sep 2011 06:23 Edited at: 5th Sep 2011 06:30
No, rather they store info on how the light reflects off a texture, like how light reflects off a 3d model ( a NORMAL map, think like a 3d model's normals)

Here is a pic:



TThe one that gives info on height information is (you guessed it) a height map or bump map. Here is a pic:



White = highest point, and black = lowest points

This is an example of a texture with a normal map and a specular map applied. If you don't know what a specular map is then google it.



That last pic was my work by the way

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Van B
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Posted: 5th Sep 2011 14:04
You can learn a lot about how normal maps work just by loading a normal map in an art package, and checking the RGB values. I think that height data could be incorporated, but the way normal maps work doesn't support that too well.
I think it boils down to the X normal being represented by red, Y normal is green, and Z normal is blue. However, quite often the Z normal, or blue, is a constant 128, depending on how the normal map is created - If I recall, the blue can be tweaked to exagerate the normal map effect, make it pop out more or less. Relief or parallax mapping uses an additional height map, which is grey scale.

It seems a bit daft to me, to take a greyscale heightmap and make it into a normal map, because what we end up with is often just the same as using a bump map on it's own. To get the most out of normals, you have to render higher poly versions, it becomes much more complicated. I wish there was an easy way to make proper normal maps - all the solutions I've found are still fairly complex.

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 5th Sep 2011 14:48
Quote: "That last pic was my work by the way
"


Dang, looks professional....
could you do a tutorial on a good normal map like that?

@ Van B
I know... I hate it that has to be that way, my computer isn't powerful enough to do anything high poly like that.

My Mind is very odd, it can memorize hundreds of commands, memorize 2 dictionary's worth of words, and make detailed 3D models. Yet my mind has trouble with the most simple calculations.
Hamburger
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Posted: 5th Sep 2011 18:57
Quote: "could you do a tutorial on a good normal map like that"


I was actually thinking of doing that, but It would have to be a video... cause it takes a couple hours to do just one. But yes, I could

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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 5th Sep 2011 20:50
Is that just a flat plane with a normal map or does it have actual geometry?

My Mind is very odd, it can memorize hundreds of commands, memorize 2 dictionary's worth of words, and make detailed 3D models. Yet my mind has trouble with the most simple calculations.
Hamburger
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Posted: 5th Sep 2011 22:13
It's just a flat plane

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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 6th Sep 2011 00:34
Oh man.
I imagine you had to make a really high poly model of that and bake it's normals into a flat plane.

My Mind is very odd, it can memorize hundreds of commands, memorize 2 dictionary's worth of words, and make detailed 3D models. Yet my mind has trouble with the most simple calculations.
Hamburger
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Posted: 6th Sep 2011 01:49
I didn't have to model anything, I made the height map from scratch and made the necessary maps out of it. No 3d modelling tools were involved.

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Travis Gatlin
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Posted: 6th Sep 2011 03:22
Oh wow. Then yeah man, write a tutorial, the community would appreciate it very much i imagine.

My Mind is very odd, it can memorize hundreds of commands, memorize 2 dictionary's worth of words, and make detailed 3D models. Yet my mind has trouble with the most simple calculations.
Design Runner
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Posted: 6th Sep 2011 03:50
It mostly involved gradients for the slopes if I am correct? Radial gradient placed in a circular selection? Makes me want to experiment with that.

PIZZABOY96
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Posted: 6th Sep 2011 17:41
Hello

If you are looking for a tutorial on making your maps I made a tutorial in FPSC Models and Media, I made one on the making of a Normal Map using blender and I made another one on how to texture a weapon magazine using gimp both the programs I used are free to use so you don't need to spend money on a 3d software program and they are good for the novice modeler since I consider myself a novice modeler, they may be of some help to you, I also plan on making a sci fi weapons pack which I will be providing tutorials on the process in them, I hope this was helpful?
Hamburger
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Posted: 6th Sep 2011 22:49
Quote: "It mostly involved gradients for the slopes if I am correct? Radial gradient placed in a circular selection? Makes me want to experiment with that.

"


Yes, and lots of rectangles and ellipeses, and also a lot of distorting and flattenening. I may even have to make a series of tutorials and release them one after another.

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Crysis
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Posted: 6th Sep 2011 23:13
In what program i can see the model with the normal map attached? I mean in what viewer or render, whatever...

Hamburger
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Posted: 7th Sep 2011 01:24
the nvidia normalmap plugin for Gimp 2.0 has a 3d preview feature where you can add your diffuse and specular map as well as changing specular and diffuse color, and specular exponents. Thats what I used for the picture, if that answers your question

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 13th Sep 2011 20:11
Yeah, and of Course DBPro can be used to view them as well.

Hamburger
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Posted: 14th Sep 2011 04:34 Edited at: 14th Sep 2011 04:37
I actually downloaded crazybump the other day and I was suprised to see that it actually had displacement mapping in it. I've never used it before but it's really cool, and it's especially cool when seeing your normal maps being coupled with displacement maps as well.

This is what they looked like, no 3d geometry at all, just displacement mapping.



You should give it a try! It's a great little program.

Also I will make a tutorial when I have the time to do it, but as of now I don't have time, so it'll have to wait a bit.

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