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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / The DarkBasic "Manual" Needs LOTS of Work

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Sequence
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Posted: 20th Sep 2011 08:22
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For instance, I only remembered that

Text 100,100,"Hello you ",2," back there."

is utterly impossible due to another Basic I used before. The DarkBasic manual doesn't mention that numerical variables need to be turned to text strings first.

Text 100,100,"Hello you ",str$(2)," back there."

OH, and use a "+" sign too.

Text 100,100,"Hello you "+str$(2)+" back there."


Then there's the dim command....

Dim Prose$(20),Letter$(11)

doesn't work. Neither does

Dim Prose$(20), Letter$(11)

and neither does

Dim Prose$(20);Letter$(11)

I couldn't figure it out so I had to

Dim Prose$(20)
Dim Letter$(11)
Dim Comic_Title$(500)

use many many lines.


And why aren't the instructions listed alphabetically???

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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Sequence
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Posted: 20th Sep 2011 09:02
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Computer programming isn't fun when you have over 100 lines of code and get compelling error messages like this one.
*******


Compiling project...
Compilation Failed (No exe created)

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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Quel
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Posted: 20th Sep 2011 10:25
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And this is just the tip of the iceberg...

As for the error messages, the editor should highlight you the line in question.

Though it has become useless for me since i switched to multi DBA projects, the error DOES give me A line an error has occured in, but it is never the real error.

-In.Dev.X: A unique heavy story based shoot'em ~35%
-CoreFleet: An underground commander unit based RTS ~15%
-TailsVSEggman: An Sonic themed RTS under development for idea presentation to Sega ~15%
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Sequence
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Posted: 20th Sep 2011 10:39
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Hi Quel,

Turned out that DarkBasic itself was corrupted, I had to restart it and then it worked.


Seems to me that computers won't be programming other computers,... any time soon!

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Sep 2011 10:54
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Well, I have learned about 8 different basic languages, and they all have slight differences. Quite a few need numbers converting to strings, quite a few use : to put commands on the same line. Maybe the only real point made is that you don't get the error line.

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Sequence
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Posted: 20th Sep 2011 11:19
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Yes, true, they all have slight differences (pure basic is just screwed up), but how can such an oversight happen? It is NOT obvious at all. And it should be mentioned at the same time, what effect a "-" (minus) sign would have, if used.

I've found manuals to be in general TERRIBLE, across the board.


AMOS Professional had the best manual, and yet it was missing some crucial explanations of what could be done with it.

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Sep 2011 11:27
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I found it quite easy to switch from Amos to DB Classic, slightly harder to switch to DBPro. But DBPro used to delete my work so I got annoyed with it. The last few updates have finally fixed it.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Sep 2011 13:03 Edited at: 20th Sep 2011 13:03
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Quote: "For instance, I only remembered that

Text 100,100,"Hello you ",2," back there."

is utterly impossible due to another Basic I used before. The DarkBasic manual doesn't mention that numerical variables need to be turned to text strings first."


The help file is quite clear on this one:

Quote: "Syntax

TEXT X,Y,String

Parameters

X

Integer
The specified x coordinates on the screen
Y

Integer
The specified y coordinates on the screen
String

String
The string to output
"


It's quite clear that you output a single string.

You decide how that string is constructed by joining several separate strings, by converting numeric variables to strings, etc, etc.

The manual would be 1000 times longer if it tried to anticipate (and correct) every misconception based on other varieties of BASIC that you may have used in the past.
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zenassem
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Posted: 20th Sep 2011 13:34 Edited at: 20th Sep 2011 13:50
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The manual has had a lot of work done to it since I purchased DBpro in 2003, which was a physically shipped version that came with a bound manual. I wish you could see my manual.

As Gandalf stated, it would be impossible for it to anticipate and/or cover everything. Sometimes you have to take separate concepts and then apply them. Add on to that the extensive knowledge base, code snippets, turorials, video-tutorials and probably the best forum and dedicated members for any product I've ever used! You come out well ahead of anything a manual could ever do.

Case in point
I have a complete library of books just on C++ & DirectX & OpenGl & SDML, in addition to MSDN, books specific to visual C++ & Borland's Complete reference, Object Oriented in C++ 3rd Edition (Lafore), Windows Programming with C++ (Hansen), specialized books Algorithms in C, Real-Time 3d Character Animation w/ C++, all types of Game Programming specific books from iso/hex, RPG, Physics for Game Programmers, tons of "Gems" books, Lamothe's entire Game Development Series, plus older one's like Tricks of the Game Programming Gurus, Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus... and about 100 others... AND they still don't cover everything I need to know at times.

And tracking down bugs is no picnic either.

Your signature has been erased by a mod please reduce it to 600 x 120.
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JackDawson
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Posted: 21st Sep 2011 00:21 Edited at: 21st Sep 2011 00:35
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Quote: "I have a complete library of books just on C++ & DirectX & OpenGl & SDML, in addition to MSDN, books specific to visual C++ & Borland's Complete reference, Object Oriented in C++ 3rd Edition (Lafore), Windows Programming with C++ (Hansen), specialized books Algorithms in C, Real-Time 3d Character Animation w/ C++, all types of Game Programming specific books from iso/hex, RPG, Physics for Game Programmers, tons of "Gems" books, Lamothe's entire Game Development Series, plus older one's like Tricks of the Game Programming Gurus, Tricks of the Windows Game Programming Gurus... and about 100 others... AND they still don't cover everything I need to know at times."


Wow, I have all those books except "Physics for game programmers" lol.

EDIT : I would buy the DarkBasic books in bound format if they were updated and existed. I always prefer the REAL books over PDF any day.

P.S. I have the OpenGL 5th Edition. If you do not have that one and you have 4th edition, your not missing much. Just stick with 4th edition. Its a whole lot better. The source code to 5th edition does not work.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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zenassem
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Posted: 21st Sep 2011 02:45 Edited at: 21st Sep 2011 02:50
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Quote: "Wow, I have all those books except "Physics for game programmers" lol."


Maybe we can form a support group.

*"My OpenGL SuperBible" is the 3rd edition
I think I also have another OpenGL titled something like Complete but I can't locate it atm.

** The full title of the book is "Beginning Math and Physics for Game Programmers"

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JackDawson
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Posted: 21st Sep 2011 04:40
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Quote: ""My OpenGL SuperBible" is the 3rd edition"


Interesting. I have not read that one. Its for the older OpenGL 1.2 if I remember right.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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WickedVixen
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Posted: 21st Sep 2011 04:59
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I was looking into doing just his about a year or two ago-- writing the definitive DBPro book-- and started with the "Basic Basics of BASIC" with a short history of the creation and use of the BASIC (Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code) language, and what DBPro truly is!

BASIC was one of the easiest languages to learn, many older computers had their flavors and my uncles would send me books on BASIC, computers and computer logic... Some I read, some I didn't, but I always came back to BASIC. It truly was the first programming language I learned and (now) sill use a variation of it today!

I think I will resurrect that DBPro book that I wanted to write, using the documentation from the DBPro Help files (with proper citings and credits, of course)... ^_^ It would be awesome...!

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zenassem
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Posted: 21st Sep 2011 13:22
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Quote: "Interesting. I have not read that one. Its for the older OpenGL 1.2 if I remember right."


It covers OpenGL 1.5. 2nd Edition was version 1.2

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DVader
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Posted: 21st Sep 2011 22:19
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Seems you need some knowledge of how basic works. The old input magazines were good, but I doubt you would find that around now. All of your examples are glaringly obvious to me, but I have programmed since the spectrum days and learned a great deal from it.

Text 100,100,"Hello you ",2," back there."

Obviously 2 is a numeric value and cannot be used as a variable. That seems fairly logical to me.

Text 100,100,"Hello you ",str$(2)," back there."
OH, and use a "+" sign too.
Text 100,100,"Hello you "+str$(2)+" back there."

Same thing, you are using a number to represent a string which is a no no. Also, the top example uses , rather than +, that you rectify in the second.

As Pincho pointed out use the : symbol to separate lines.

dim data(10):dim word(10)

Here is a link regarding the Input magazine, it may help you with the basics.

http://www.acornelectron.co.uk/mags/input/top_lvl.html

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Sequence
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2011 10:00
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Hi Anitarquious I,

I'd sure like to see EASY demonstrations of how an instruction was supposed to be used. Most manuals I've found, well, cryptic. Since so many SYMBOLS are used, I need PRECISE lines of sample code to be able to use commands. And DarkBasic having so many extensions, the need's grown to huge proportions now.



Hi DVader,

Yes but

dim data(10):dim word(10)

Is two separate commands. In AMOS Professional I was able to use commas to dimension as many as 25 or 30 arrays in one line.


Lets look at the PRINT command.

***
This command will print text, numbers, variables and strings to the screen.
***

There's that word "strings".

So
PRINT A$+B$+C$

Works? Heck, learn something new everyday. I never knew that the PRINT command could use a "+" sign. I was always only ever using "," and ";" characters.

Print A$;B$;C$


However, it's still not right to assume that a person knows that the "+" can be used in both, but NOT the use of "," and ";" which are only for PRINT.

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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Sequence
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2011 10:49
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Quote: "Sequence wrote:

Seems to me that computers won't be programming other computers,... any time soon!"


Well, spoke too soon:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/10/automatic_device_driver_synthesis/

and of interest too...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/08/18/ibm_darpa_synapse_project/

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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Sequence
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2011 06:22
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I had a hard time finding this C:\Windows\Fonts because "set text font" doesn't tell you what fonts ARE available, and doesn't say that there is a command to check "PERFORM CHECKLIST FOR FONTS" to get that answer. That's dumb.

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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Sequence
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2011 07:06 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2011 07:17
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This is a sample of what I got.

See the nothing there? I couldn't open and write to a file!!!


So the user manual is a "guessing game" as this

doesn't work, and this

doesn't work either. Or have I got it all wrong and I have to write a separate line for EVERY variable I want entered into a file?
I resorted to

Then I found out that I had to turn ". " into a variable first.

But that didn't work, line 3 that is, so I took it out and this doesn't work either

The second line doesn't work.



WHY doesn't the last line work????

None of the above code would compile.

BASIC is very hard to use.

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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Sequence
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2011 07:31
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Who'd of thunk it? DOH!!!!

There's a WRITE VARIABLE command. It would have been nice if the manual pointed out that there is a difference and you have to switch back and forth when mixing numbers and strings. But then the manual would be gargantuan, and DarkBASIC Professional is ALREADY 560 megabytes in size, the initial set up that is.

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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Sequence
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2011 07:39
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Now I really need help. The following entire program

Gave me this in an ascii file



Q. 1. Why is the variable "C" ascii characters?

Q. 2. What is "@Gulim", "@GulimChe", "@DotumChe"???
Most of the fonts don't have the "@" symbol in front of them.

If all the "1"s are in the right place, it'll work like a charm.
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empty
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2011 11:40 Edited at: 23rd Sep 2011 11:41
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Since there is no real ISO or similar standard (at least not after the 80s) it would be quite a huge task to point out the differences between all the Basic dialects around there and DBPro. There are some inconsistencies in the language, but not more than in most other Basic dialects. You have a point though, that there's a lack of cross-references in the manual.

First of all, to concatenate strings you use the "+" symbol. Therefore Print A$ + B$ + C$ makes perfect sense.

Q1: Write File, writes binary data to a file. If opened up in a text editor, it'll show you the ASCII representations of those values. In order to achieve what you want you need to use


Q2: Fonts starting with a "@" symbol are usually used for rotated text output. They can be ignored in most cases. You can simply sort them out by checking the first character.
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Daniel TGC
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Posted: 23rd Sep 2011 14:47
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Users need to remember that the supplied help files are just that. Help files, if you want a full blown manual then get Hands On DsrkBasic Pro volumes 1 and 2 they are excellent for teaching new and old alternative language users what's what, especially since the book layout is that of a professional text book. When you get to the point were you don't need that book anymore then you almost certainly have the founding skill needed to work things out for yourself. I will happily admit there are times when I have tried to do something and a command hasn't worked in the way I expected. But that's usually due to my familurarity with other languages or my own preconceptions. I am hitting the same problem with AppGameKit at times, because I have spent so many years learning dbpro and c++ I often find myself typing in dbpro and dgdk commands when I am not thinking.

The biggest skill when using the help files however is learning how to read the help files! As several users have pointed out the documentation clearly states what the nature of the parameters are, if it says string, trying to put an integer into it isn't a very bright thing to do. I find 75% of new user problems doesn't come from the text, but from the user not reading it correctly.

As my dearly departed father used to say "read the screen" a mantra he often cursed himself with when trying to write programs.
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Mobiius
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Posted: 24th Sep 2011 16:15
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Quote: "Q. 2. What is "@Gulim", "@GulimChe", "@DotumChe"???
Most of the fonts don't have the "@" symbol in front of them."

Those fonts with @ in front are valid fonts. I have them named that way too. (I have a lot more though) They must be installed by office or something.

My signature is NOT a moderator plaything! Stop changing it!
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JackDawson
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Posted: 29th Sep 2011 06:36 Edited at: 29th Sep 2011 06:38
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Quote: "Users need to remember that the supplied help files are just that. Help files, if you want a full blown manual then get Hands On DsrkBasic Pro volumes 1 and 2 they are excellent for teaching new and old alternative language users what's what, especially since the book layout is that of a professional text book. When you get to the point were you don't need that book anymore then you almost certainly have the founding skill needed to work things out for yourself. I will happily admit there are times when I have tried to do something and a command hasn't worked in the way I expected. But that's usually due to my familurarity with other languages or my own preconceptions. I am hitting the same problem with AppGameKit at times, because I have spent so many years learning dbpro and c++ I often find myself typing in dbpro and dgdk commands when I am not thinking.

The biggest skill when using the help files however is learning how to read the help files! As several users have pointed out the documentation clearly states what the nature of the parameters are, if it says string, trying to put an integer into it isn't a very bright thing to do. I find 75% of new user problems doesn't come from the text, but from the user not reading it correctly.

As my dearly departed father used to say "read the screen" a mantra he often cursed himself with when trying to write programs."


I would buy those books IF they are up to date. I had asked about this before my self about the books and others have said they are not up to date. As I mentioned, I would love to have REAL copies of the books any day over a PDF or online. But they should be up to date first though.

And they do not have to have EVERY single update to "todays date" so to speak. Just all the commands even up to 7.7 and hold it there. I would be happy with that.

PowerBasic always makes a new book with every updated version of their BASIC compilers. AND if you have not bought their compiler, they are so tight nit on their books that they will NOT sell you the book unless you have paid for the compiler. Its interesting how different companies do different things.

"Life is like a box of chocolates.. eat it before it melts."
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HowDo
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Posted: 29th Sep 2011 10:17
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seem the compiler will let you do it like so



so you can get them on one line if you want.

Dark Physics makes any hot drink go cold.
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