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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Free RPG/Game Creator community project

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 13th Oct 2011 03:36
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Hi guys! I've talked with DevilLiger about this in another thread, so I've decided to make a main thread for this: We're proposing a community project to make a free RPG/game creator with no restrictions applying, using DBPro to code it.

We know we'll need a map editor which will allow sprites to be placed on the map as both parts of the map, and objects (which would group pretty much anything that would have one event or more associated with it, including NPCS). Also this map editor will allow for line collision, which we can use the LineMAP plugin for.

Also I'm thinking we could possibly incorporate a scripting language into it, either one we make or something somewhat mainstream like Python 3 to further enhance events and other things.

Now, some of you may wonder how we'd accomplish creating an EXE for each project. I used to think I'd have to rewrite a compiler. Well, thanks to a statement by Benjamin, he made me realize it would be rather simple: We create a generic EXE which would pull all the data from level files and object files.

So here's the layout of what's outputted from our editor:

A. MAP FILE
1. List of sprites on the map to be used as the map itself.
2. List of objects on the map that have events associated with them.

Now... in list 2, we would have strings representing event scripting files associated with each object which will be used later in our EXE.

What do you all think? Who's up for it?
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DevilLiger
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Posted: 13th Oct 2011 12:00 Edited at: 13th Oct 2011 12:17
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i think it's a good idea, but one thing are you going to make it easy for them or just you know? last question will this be open source or just a free program? wish i can help because i never worked on 2d or anything that good before. sorry, but good luck i hope you finish this one day.

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WLGfx
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Posted: 13th Oct 2011 15:36
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I wrote this: http://csnorwood.site40.net/dark-gdk/wlsge/ for DBPro and GDK some time ago, but it's a 3D level editor. Since moving to DBP and GDK I've not done anything in 2D, at least not since the old Amiga days.

I'd probably find it much easier to write a level editor in C++ than I would in DBP because I get frustrated a lot with typos.

A level structure would be using UDT's (DBP's TYPE). And I would not use a 2D array, instead a level can be any width and height and drawing the level would be just to check whether an object is within the screen area and then draw it.

It would also have a background layer (ie, clouds, stars or whatever). Second layer would be that static (non-movable) objects such as the platforms and walls. The last layer would be the decorations and animated areas, some may be collideable. These can also have portals which will either jump to other parts of the level or go to another level, others will appear over the player.

The background layer will move at a different rate to the other layers too.

This kinda thing takes me back many years.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 13th Oct 2011 16:21
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I don't think I've ever played an RPG, so I don't know enough about them to work on one.

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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 13th Oct 2011 19:25
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Quote: "I don't think I've ever played an RPG, so I don't know enough about them to work on one."


Are you serious? RPGs are the best genre of computer games. You've missed out on like 90% of the games made since the 70's.

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 13th Oct 2011 20:03
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I'll try making it as simplistic as possible to use, also it will be open source, since if anyone wants to help out they can.

Do you all think I should use BBB GUI for the menus and such?

Quote: "I'd probably find it much easier to write a level editor in C++ than I would in DBP because I get frustrated a lot with typos."


Yeah... And one thing I noticed is kind of funky is stuff doesn't always seem linear with sprites, but I'm starting to get a handle on it. Also, thanks for the link! I'm contemplating allowing this to make 2D and 3D games.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 13th Oct 2011 21:01
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Quote: "Are you serious? RPGs are the best genre of computer games. You've missed out on like 90% of the games made since the 70's."


So what's the best one to try then?

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WLGfx
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Posted: 13th Oct 2011 23:47
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Anything 2D I would probably handle sprites manually and just paste images. I know where I am doing it that way. For a 2D level editor you could easily paste hundreds of sprites of any size and still not go under 60 FPS. I've done that before years ago, that's why I did the 3D one a while ago.

If you need any help with some things just let me know. I just ain't got any media to start with...

lol @ pincho... Even I found it odd that some-one hadn't played an RPG.

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zenassem
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 00:26
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If you're aim is doing something similar to Enterbrain's 'RPG Maker 2k' or Agetec's distribution of 'RPG Maker' (the first one, for ps1) targeting 2D rpg creation; I would be interested in discussing the project with you.

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 00:28
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zenassem - Yeah, similar to RPG Maker 95, 2k, 2k3... and I'm thinking it would be nice if we could embed python in it to enhance everything even further.
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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 01:05
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Dig out some media so at least I've got something to start from.

What I'm thinking of is a custom sprite collision and level editor setup. ie, one sprite can be the floor as well as grass but the collidable area would just be the floor area.

There's a decent plugin for LUA scripting someones done as well as a few others. I did find one that would even call DBP functions from a script.

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DevilLiger
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 01:56 Edited at: 14th Oct 2011 01:57
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i felt like leaning more towards 2d will be a better choice. WLGfx is right, DP Pro already has a LUA plugin you can just use that. for the mean time i'll look into the best size for the tiles for backgrounds and such. so we can roll out with some quick prototype tiles such as grass,dirt, and such. im not a good artist, but hopefully something magical happens.

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 02:16 Edited at: 14th Oct 2011 02:33
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Okay, I'd like to make it fully extensible to where people can use large images as a single map for a background as well. The only question I have about the Lua plugin is does it have a socket layer?

One reason I like Python so much is how extensible it really is.

Also, WLGfx, I'll make some stuff in TileStudio for tiles. What size tiles should we use though, 32x32, 64x64? larger, even?

EDIT: DevilLiger - just saw your post.

I say we have two separate modes: Tiled and Free-Draw.

Tiled would be where you tile things.

Free-Draw is where you can place sprites anywhere on the map, and assign a "sprite level" to them, which will be good for tile order (which tiles to draw first when they overlap).

There's another advantage to Free-Draw: It allows you to use isometric tiles for an isometric game.

What do you guys think?
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zenassem
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 02:22 Edited at: 14th Oct 2011 02:33
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Quote: " felt like leaning more towards 2d will be a better choice. WLGfx is right, DP Pro already has a LUA plugin you can just use that. for the mean time i'll look into the best size for the tiles for backgrounds and such. so we can roll out with some quick prototype tiles such as grass,dirt, and such. im not a good artist, but hopefully something magical happens"


Not a bad idea.

For me to be involoved, I would like to do some discussing and planning about the project before the project just shoots out of the gate.

There are things that are generally overlooked like trigger editing in the map editor (as a simple example). I'm not trying to direct the project, but I also know that I don't want to put effort into a mish-mosh project. I believe that certain details need to have a solid foundation before people just start throwing snippets around. For example, defining the tileset, what features would be included in the map editor, a well thought out design for the map-file; How these things will be implemented; considerations of overall project management, documentation, submittal process, and how the project will be maintained... etc.. I understand that things will change from any original design document, but some formal thought needs to be there for anything like this to succeed.

There is just a lot to discuss on a project of this magnitude, and spending time early on in the process, setting a solid foundation is imperative IMHO, for it to have a chance of success. Ill provide contact details tomorrow as I have to run-off soon.

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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 02:31 Edited at: 14th Oct 2011 02:35
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The level tiles shouldn't actually have any size restriction as I'd prefer not to use a 2d array for a map.

If a map was laid out like this:



It's easier to create levels that are huge. What do you think?

Any proto type code that works, I can turn some of them into C++ calls to make the map editor and the game run faster and smoother if you like.

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 02:37
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Quote: "It's easier to create levels that are huge. What do you think?"


That's the same concept as my Free-Draw idea.

I already have the code for us to start off with... though some editing does need to be done.

Quote: "For me to be involoved, I would like to do some discussing and planning about the project before the project just shoots out of the gate. "


I understand, and right now we're planning out a lot. It's a big magnitude, but the sooner we get the foundations for what we want down, the easier it is to implement, and if there are any minor changes we want to make we can make it when the time comes. That being said, I say we try to make it as modular as possible, eg. use functions for extensibility.

As for right now... I agree, we need a better way to keep in contact. Does anyone here use IRC?
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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 02:38 Edited at: 14th Oct 2011 02:39
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I've got Google talk thingy...

The project should be separated into many files too for easier working on...

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zenassem
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 02:39
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Quote: "It's easier to create levels that are huge. What do you think?"


These are the things that need to be debated. I don't have much time tonight, but I can see using a multidimensional array (not a 2 dimensional array but, at least a 3d array). But, there are numerous options in storing and accesssing the map information beyond an array structure. More importan, tis defining all/most of the info that would be in the map data. It's just too big of a topic for me to devote to right now, as I have to get ready for work.

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 02:40
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Quote: "Any proto type code that works, I can turn some of them into C++ calls to make the map editor and the game run faster and smoother if you like."


Well, what if we used C? I'm actually not too familiar with some of the newer parts to C++, like templates. They utterly confuse the heck out of me.

My code was in DarkBASIC Pro.

Give me a minute to get it together and I'll post it.
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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 02:58
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@zenassem - Quite understandable, but if there's one thing that you could do for this discussion is to follow it and still put some input into it even if you just have 5 minutes to see what's going on from time to time. Fridays and Saturdays are usually busy for me as I'm out singing quite often, the rest of the time is my own.

@Da_Rhyno - Specifically such things like the map drawing, swapping pieces and sorting pieces in the map structure can be done using C/C+ calls.

You said earlier about the possibility of isometric tiling, this can easily be done by having snap coordinates to the editor and a simple function which will sort the pieces so that they are drawn in the right order.

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 03:18
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WLGfx - I like your idea there.

Attached is the map editor I made in DBP, which I believe you and zenassem helped me on before.
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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 03:29
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I ran it, and when it came to load image... Ugh!

First addition to the editor: File selector... Do you want the standard WinApi file selector to be accessible in the map editor?

You can set the current directory before you run to the same dir as the exe file...

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 03:43
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Yeah, standard would be better. I was just making my own since I didn't know about BBBGUI at the time.
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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 03:47
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I'll post it on here when it's done. I'll add the SetCurrentDirectory(), GetCurrentDirectory() and FileSelector() functions. Just gotta have a quick look into sending and retrieving DBPro strings to and from C/C++... Any other stuff needed I'll just add it on the end...

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 03:56 Edited at: 14th Oct 2011 03:58
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WLGfx - Are you interfacing DBP with C/C++? Or... what exactly are you doing?
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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 03:58
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Yeah, I've already got a winapi fileselector working so I'm just throwing it together now.

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 03:59
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Oh, okay, cool. =D
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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 04:56
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Almost there... The file selector is showing up but return the file and path is giving me jip... Shouldn't be a mo to fix this problem...

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 05:40
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Sweet!

I looked into Lua, and it seems somewhat limited next to Python.

So are we doing this in C? If so, what compiler?

If we're doing this in C, I could easily integrate python scripting into it.
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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 06:00 Edited at: 14th Oct 2011 06:01
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Oh no, All the extra code will be in C++ as a dll which will be attached to the final exe. I'm very almost there with returning a string from a dll.

As your comfortable with DBP, you can stick with DBP but the added extras such as a file selector and faster map drawing functions I'll do in C/C++.

I've got a glitch returning a full string to DBP with this:


I'll have another look at it tomorrow. Off up the wooden hill now...

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 06:39
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Unfortunately I haven't done any DLL coding, however from what I did read in the DBP help file, you look pretty much on the mark with what you're doing.
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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 11:01
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@ Pincho Paxton:

Recently I'd say the best RPGs are Fallout 3, Mass Effect, and Bioshock. Of the older games my favorite RPGs were Ultima 7 (any Ultima really), and the Might And Magic 3 (anything 3 and above is really cool).

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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 16:08
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Fileselector is done and ready for use...

Drop the dll in the compiler/plugins-user directory.

Test it with this:


There is no .ini file so the function will not be highlighted like the normal functions. As I add more commands I'll write the .ini file too. Just let me know what extras you want...

zip file attached with the dll...

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 19:23
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Thanks WLGfx! My step now is to install BBB GUI and redo the GUI on the program to not just make it look more professional, but be simpler to code. Then after that I'll incorporate your file selector for the image loader (and eventually the project saver).

BTW, you're familiar with DLL coding for DBP, right? Have you ever used Python before, and if so would you be willing to write some commands for DBP that would allow us to embed Python scripting in our program? I was looking over the differences between it and Lua, and Lua actually seems a lot more limited. Namely we'd need to use PythonRunString() to run individual lines of Python, also we'd need to be able to return values from Python (all values are labeled as PYOBJECTs, which need to be converted into integers/floats/strings/etc...).
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 19:51
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Quote: "@ Pincho Paxton:

Recently I'd say the best RPGs are Fallout 3, Mass Effect, and Bioshock. Of the older games my favorite RPGs were Ultima 7 (any Ultima really), and the Might And Magic 3 (anything 3 and above is really cool)."


Bioshock is really cheap in Morrison's, it's a pity my PS3 blu ray is broke.

I don't know what to pick for the PC.

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 19:54
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Try some of the classic Final Fantasy games to get an idea of it.
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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 19:57
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WLGfx - I just tested your DLL man, it's cool! I only have one concern: It just returns the file name, but not the drive or directory it's in. eg. the full path name is "D:\myimages\img1.bmp", but it just returns "img1.bmp".
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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 20:05
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I'll double check the return value tomorrow. It should actually be returning the relative path to the exe file...

I don't know about python but again I'll check it out tomorrow. Of out for a night singing now. Got a gig...

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WLGfx
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 20:59
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The one attached will give you the absolute path...

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 21:24
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Awesome, thanks!

Now I have to try to figure out how to work with this BBB GUI, there's not much in the way of documentation for it.

BTW do we want to use linemaps for collision?
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Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 14th Oct 2011 22:36 Edited at: 14th Oct 2011 22:36
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Quote: "Bioshock is really cheap in Morrison's, it's a pity my PS3 blu ray is broke.

I don't know what to pick for the PC."


The older ones would be hard to run unless you ran them via DOSBox but you can get Might and Magic 9 that'll run on Windows for $8.99 at Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Might-Magic-9-Jewel-Case-Pc/dp/B000BYAG7W/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1318620895&sr=8-7

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 15th Oct 2011 01:31 Edited at: 15th Oct 2011 02:15
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EDIT: Putting the question in it's own thread. Right now, I'm working on the GUI window for our program.

How should we have the canvas window set up? Locked to a grid like RPG maker, or a free-draw where you put things where you want? I'd say we go for both to not limit ourselves.
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WLGfx
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Posted: 15th Oct 2011 04:08
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Pick what you need and let me know so I know what to add to the dll.

The collision all depends on the engine you want to work on. The engine could just draw a map and then have zones, or have pieces on the map that have collision defined ready. I can work around that easy enough so long as I know the structures to what your working with. I wouldn't even consider line map (whatever it is) yet, just think about boxes for the time being until the time comes for other collision types...

BBB GUI: Never used it to be honest. I've done all my stuff direct with the Winapi... Dialogue, message boxes, menus etc...

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 15th Oct 2011 04:13
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Well, how would we define collision for those items? Would it be on a pixel-by-pixel basis?
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WLGfx
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Posted: 15th Oct 2011 04:21 Edited at: 15th Oct 2011 04:21
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No, zones.... So much easier for larger sprites.... What kind of media do you have or what your thinking of having? Set size, or mixed, I can work with both when it comes to drawing the map and working out collision zones.

Some levels can be small, others can be large (using larger images). Tomorrow I'll give you my google talk addy cos it would take me 5 minutes to do a level editor. (Well actually a damn good few days)...

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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 15th Oct 2011 04:28 Edited at: 15th Oct 2011 04:29
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And mixed image sizes, because remember - it's not just for us, it's an open project for anyone who wants to be active.

Could you explain your concept of zones please?

Also I might actually take up coding a DLL for Python to work with DBPro on this, that way people can customize events to the max.

I just need to know what C++ editors/compilers the DBPro globstruct.h will work with, also how to work with strings.

What I'd like to do is have a Python backdrop as it were, where all of the data is stored in Python classes, possibly alongside in regular memory. Then you can use the Python classes to update those variables, etc.

EDIT: My google account is darthrhyno. That should make things easy for you to know who you're talking to.
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WLGfx
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Posted: 15th Oct 2011 15:50 Edited at: 15th Oct 2011 15:51
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I use MSVC 2008 Express still, not moved up to 2010 yet. When I started working on my first plugin it was fiddly and even when I started working on this one with the file selector it was fiddly trying to return a string.

Zones are just rectangle areas that can be placed over the sprite and used for collision. Smaller sprites will only use a few, larger sprites will use a lot to cover things as legs, arms, etc for greater accuracy in collision.

If using C/C++ to check for zone collision it will be very fast, plus if you want to use that in the end I'll convert the collision checking to assembler using the pipeline cache lightning speed.

There's a few easy to start with tutorials in the DLL Talk forum and the rest of the information is in the Technical doc in the DBP help files.

EDIT: If its the right one, then I've sent you a google talk invite...

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
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Da_Rhyno
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Posted: 15th Oct 2011 19:26
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It was right, and I accepted.

Zones sound pretty good, however the reason I suggested allowing for linemaps as well is for isometric games. We might be able to utilize both, depending on the game style the person is making.
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zenassem
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Posted: 15th Oct 2011 20:01 Edited at: 15th Oct 2011 20:04
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I honestly wish you luck with this. Unfortunately for me, I can't work on a project of this magnitude with such a loosely defined overall design structure. I'll still keep an eye on your project though. I do have some suggestions.

* Limit the overall scope.
- (Just for example) I wouldn't go for everything at once. Get a regular top down map editor going first. Later on, you can focus on handling Isometric maps.
- Set some basic core goals... allowing room for feature creep. Without some concrete goals I fear you will get lost in chasing down every rabbit hole.
- Define the core/needs and feature/wants. Work on the needs first.

* Setup another method to organize and work on the project. Doesn't have to be a full blown website, even a simple group allowing files to be organized/shared/documented would work. Forums as these just seem to make things more difficult than they need to be.

Your signature has been erased by a mod please reduce it to 600 x 120.
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Da_Rhyno
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Well, I'm still trying to figure out what exactly we're starting off with here. I have WLGfx's google talk account. Do you have one or something similar zenassem? I actually think it would be best if we could all join an IRC channel and discuss ideas to get a better foundation for what we'd all like to see with this, as well as to set a roadmap with goals.
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