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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / System serial number

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JRNTexas
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Posted: 31st Oct 2011 02:25
Is there any way to get the serial number of the system that the game is running on?
Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 31st Oct 2011 03:40
I think IanM's matrix utils has something like this.

IanM
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Posted: 31st Oct 2011 15:23
No it doesn't.

The problem is that there is nothing unique about a system that cannot be changed, so hardware ids are pretty useless and so are OS keys.

I'll probably never implement anything like that because of that reason, and the fact that some people will jump on any functions I provide and implement some brain-dead licensing/copy-protection scheme.

Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 31st Oct 2011 19:23
There's always ways to do copy protection but if people want to play your game for free you cannot stop all of them. All we can do is make it harder to crack. Back in April we talked about it and I posted a method that used the stats from DirectX to make a key unique to the computer running the program. I doubt this method will work for the AppGameKit though.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=183687&b=1

And of course I'm with IanM... it's pointless to try make a copy protection scheme since it's not 100% protected.

BatVink
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 00:00
I think that creating a serial number system that doesn't involve too much effort is worthwhile. I'm sure you could apply the 80/20 rule - you'll stop 80% of casual copiers by creating a system that's 20% of the way towards an almost indestructible solution.

My preferred method is to use a register-by-name system. If the game says "Registered to Joe Bloggs" every time it starts it makes people think twice before passing to somebody else (your name could be everywhere within weeks, including download sites), and it would be an annoyance to see somebody else's name on your game every time you start it. Plus, you can use the reg details to perform your blacklisting where necessary.

Registering software and combating piracy aren't part of the same battle. You can turn copied programs into additional sales if done smartly. It's sometimes good to be less secure.

Chris Tate
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 01:36
WLGfx
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 02:52 Edited at: 1st Nov 2011 02:57
I remember reading that not that long ago on these forums, and also years ago my home towns (8-bit and 16-bit computer programmers, actually everyone who had a computer then) community had a discussion about it. At that time, even us programmers sat in the background, throwing our points in, laughed.

At the end of the day, then, it is so much easier to make it a tad harder for people to hack games, than to introduce a serialization.

We discussed at the time to encrypt separate media into archives. The amount of different archives your game has (PW's included). Hacker safe. Almost. Either way, they will get passed what you put in, but some do give up. More fun for the determined. And there were lots around at that time...

Nuff said, nothing is safe...

BatVink has 'A' good idea which works for a lot of things. And the internet is the way to go with these things these days, but still some people can abuse it.

TGC uses an email, password setup. Safe'ish'.

What do you want? What exactly is it you want to protect?

EDIT: Sowwy... At the time we decided to mix and match different compression and password algorithms into protecting our media and code.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
CumQuaT
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 02:57
Why not base it off the MAC address of the PC?

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Mr Bigglesworth
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 05:18
Quote: "Why not base it off the MAC address of the PC?"


What if you got a new computer? You could no longer play your game.
JRNTexas
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 16:11 Edited at: 1st Nov 2011 16:25
It's OK if someone installs on another computer and goes through the registration process again.

If you see the same serial number being registered to machines with different signatures, you can assume that it is being distributed. If, on some regular interval, say once a month, the system phones home and asks for permission to keep running, you can disable the game using a specific serial number. I'm over simplifying the process but the concept works.

I could not find out how to get the serial number of the current system, however I did find out how to get somewhat of a "signature" of the current system.




If someone is hacking a piece of software that costs several hundred dollars, the hacking effort may, in some way, be worth the effort of the person doing the hacking, albeit an illegitimate enterprise.

Hacking this system requires more effort than the cost of the game.
Chris Tate
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 16:26
Logging and investigation seems like the best that can be done to locate suspects; perhaps generating an ID for each download and install package can also aid keeping track of what is going on, what download archive is popping up time and time again and how many people are using the same install package; at least until the enthusiastic minority figure out how to hack the IDs and the authentication checks.

Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 16:35
This has been mentioned in other threads. I'm using it, and it does a good job, but you still have to verify, if you are worried about duplicates.

IanM
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 19:48
@JRNTexas,
Your code is not useful for what you think it is.

If you use that code, then every time someone replaces their graphics cards, or updates the drivers for it, they'll fail whatever check you put in place. Every time the BIOS is updated they'll fail your check. Every time someone overclocks their system they'll fail your check.

Quote: "Hacking this system requires more effort than the cost of the game."

Really? So people don't hack software for kudos? So those really cheap apps you get for phones don't get hacked? If you really believe this, then I think you're being a little naive.

And when you disable your legitimate customers because someone has determined your key-generation algorithm and has entirely coincidentally used a duplicate key, or has changed enough of their system to fail your checks, I'm sure your customer will be happy that you've disabled their fairly purchased software.

Sorry, but in my view, you've fallen into the trap of treating your future customers as potential criminals.

So far, only BatVink has suggested a reasonable option. Verification on initial install is another. Or provide a service as part of the purchase that no-one else can provide (eg Steam means I don't need the media any more) to incentivise people to buy from you.

Basically, treat your customers as customers, not criminals.

JRNTexas
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Posted: 1st Nov 2011 22:49 Edited at: 1st Nov 2011 23:42
Quote: "Basically, treat your customers as customers, not criminals."


IanM

I appreciate your intention not to mistreat customers, and I think that BatVink's solution is a great one.
Quote: "It's sometimes good to be less secure."


This only applies when your game is programmed to need some other element. I am currently writing an AppGameKit game that does just this. But, not every game can be programmed to require this. I intend to do exactly what BatVink is suggesting, they will need to buy new levels for the game and the game itself will be low or no cost.

Crossing your fingers and hoping that someone doesn't re-distribute can't be the only solution.

Requiring a serial number and checking the system doesn't treat customers in any particular way, unless they are copying or re-distributing your software. Otherwise, 99% of the time they don't even know what is going on.

Updating the drivers should not effect any of the checks above, unless someone updates the bios on their system or bios on a graphics card, which is extremely rare. Even in these rare incidents, they just have to re-input their serial number and maybe not even that, depending on how the serial checking routine was written.

The only exception is those that upgrade their system with a new graphics card, etc. This may be 1/2 of 1% of all potential customers (based on industry statistics that I have seen). And in that case, it would only ask for them to re-input their serial number. Again, the decision to deny the use of a particular serial number should always be up to individual discretion and how the program reacts to such changes.

You could also limit what you check up on to things like, the bios version and date which would be extremely difficult to replace without actually moving the software to another system. Moving to another system would be fine also, as long as it didn't continue to run on both systems at the same time.

Again, this would normally only be triggered, if they copied and moved the directory to another system, without the benefit of installing on another system. This, in itself is an indication of attempting to reuse the software without re-registration.

Any re-install would require the same process as an install, asking them to input their serial number, which would be verified as a unique key to run the software.

Quote: "So people don't hack software for kudos?"


Software hacks are typically a ratio between cost/time to hack.

Spending 40 hours Hacking an $800 (US) dollar software package might have it's rewards. If the cost is low and the time to hack is high, most people give up before they spend 40 hours hacking a $20 game.

In all of the above cases, there is no mistreatment of legitimate customers. It's just keeping your game from running on a hundred unauthorized systems. What you do when someone is obviously running your game on multiple, unauthorized systems is an individual choice. I would never suggest an automated system of "Your game has been disabled." Which, as you have indicated, I also think would be unwise.

Just as a side note, this isn't my first time around the track or even my 33rd time. I've written software for major corporations and if they intend to make income from a product, they protect it and they understand the ratio of time to crack versus cost. Almost all legitimate software has a serial number and a system for checking to be sure that it is not being abused and used on multiple systems simultaneously. The more expensive the software, it seems the more elaborate the checking system.

If I remember correctly, this is one of the "conditions" for using Dark Basic Pro. I never felt that TGC was treating me like a criminal by asking me not to use the software on multiple systems at the same time. I also would not be offended if they verified that it was being used on only one system, which I assume they do. And if they found that I had "broken" my contract to use the software, I would expect them to disable my copy of DBPro.
IanM
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 00:51
Video Bios is updated a large percentage of the times the graphics drivers are updated, which puts the percentage at nearly 100% over a couple of driver upgrades.

If I'm reading too much into this part, let me know, then ignore it
Quote: "This, in itself is an indication of attempting to reuse the software without re-registration. "

And I never got this either - why stop someone who has bought your software from using it on any system they want to? They aren't getting any more value out of it, so why should they have to pay again for each and every system?

If someone told me that I had to, for example, buy the same MP3 for each and every device I wanted to play it on I'd laugh in their face and tell them to shove it. That's not a far-fetched example either, because that's exactly what the music companies proposed at one point.

Quote: "Spending 40 hours Hacking an $800 (US) dollar software package might have it's rewards. If the cost is low and the time to hack is high, most people give up before they spend 40 hours hacking a $20 game."

They have and they do. It's not about how much the software is priced at or how much time it takes - it's about being first and getting known. If your game is any good, it's going to get hacked. The more of a challenge you make hacking it, the more people there are that will attempt to hack it.

One example of many 1000's of low-priced hacked games - Angry birds is 0.69 UKP for the full version on the iPhone right now. Check for the torrent in google.

Quote: "I never felt that TGC was treating me like a criminal by asking me not to use the software on multiple systems at the same time."

Because they don't do that, and never have.

For version 1, the DBPro CD needed to be in the drive when you used it - a few people (myself included: there was a registry hack) managed to work around that so that we could avoid wearing out the media (I generally use laptops - I don't want to carry CD's around with me).

They eventually got rid of that in favour of a one-time registration, which then allowed electronic distribution. From that point on you could now freely (and with TGC's blessing) install DBPro to as many of your systems as you want, as long as it's you using it. You can copy the installation from one machine to another without reregistering even. No enforcement or threats in sight, just trusting their customers. I'd guess that the payoff would have been an increase in on-line impulse buying.

Relatively recently they went even further: 'Here, take our software - it'll display ads in the editor and we'd like you to buy a copy if you sell your software.' Again, trusting the customer to do what's right. I'd like to wager that they still sell it and make money on it, plus there's the money made not directly from DBPro, but from the associated plug-ins, models, sounds etc bought for using within DBPro.

At each stage, TGC have reduced the protection on the software, trusted more, and I'd guess made at least as much profit as the time before on the DBPro product range.

One final word, then I'll stop:
You aren't going to stop piracy of your product. You just aren't. There are companies out there that specialise in this kind of thing, and larger companies that use them, and they haven't succeeded either.

All you can do is treat your customers with respect and ignore the pirates. The majority of the pirates would never have bought your game in the first place, so you shouldn't count them as lost sales, and others may be trying before they buy and so also shouldn't be counted as lost sales. The number of pirates that have your product, could afford it, and would buy if it there wasn't a pirated version would be close enough to zero that they're not worth worrying about.

Finally, you might just convince a pirate to buy your game if you treat them with respect - it's happened before.

JRNTexas
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 02:33 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2011 03:19
IanM

I really don't want to belabor this. However, you are entitled to your view of using serial number routines. I respect that you want to use your approach to this issue.

Having said that, it is not my approach. And wanting to protect my more than 2000++ hours of development time by using an effective but non-invasive serial number protection routine (not an algorithm) is simply a choice, and it should not be characterized as "treating customers like criminals," because this is my choice. Every major software corporation invokes some form of protection.

Quote: "why stop someone who has bought your software from using it on any system they want to"


Where is the point where "any system they want to" becomes too many? Where is the point where any system they want to becomes a lack of income, preventing you from updating and upgrading their software, because more people are using it for free than are paying customers?

The reason I personally do not want to allow this, is because most people don't own more than two, maybe three systems. Even then, according to most license's, they must pay for the ability to use it on multiple systems (Just like Windows or Mac OS) because multiple systems, usually means multiple users. Any use of the same serial number over multiple systems may (and I believe likely) be an indication of "sharing".

If someone told me that they bought a new system and wanted to install this on a new system, I would have no problem. I went though this with Sony when they first entered the sound editing software business by buying Sound Forge. I installed it on a new system and it would not work. I had to call their support line and explain the situation. They issued me a new serial number.

You talked about how TGC has gone from requiring the CD in the drive and moved toward a one time registration. They have made a corporate decision to "move" in this direction. It was not their first choice. It is a corporate philosophy. One that I respect but do not wish to apply to my approach. They still require you to send them your email address and they then send you a serial number. This is just a different approach to protection than I want to employ but it is still a form of protection. AND their EULA does state ONE user on ONE system (See below).

I also do not like being characterized as "not treating people with respect" because I want to protect my personal investment. Like I said above, every major corporation making revenue from the sale of software has some type of protection mechanism.

Try updating a hi-jacked version of Windows. Try sharing a version of Photoshop. Try sharing a hi-jacked version of Mac OS. All of these companies have effective enforcement against pirating.

You are right that this doesn't keep people from pirating their software. It's just like the locks on our doors (I don't know about you but I keep mine locked when I'm not at home). It doesn't keep the professional criminals out but it does stop casual users from re-distributing your software (or your stereo, computer and TV).

Quote: "Quote: "I never felt that TGC was treating me like a criminal by asking me not to use the software on multiple systems at the same time."
Because they don't do that, and never have."


Here is the current, actual EULA. Notice that it states, as I have underlined, "on a single computer or device". They go on to state that you may make "a single" backup, not use on a second machine but a backup of the disc.

Quote: "Conditioned upon your compliance with the terms and conditions of this EULA, Conduit hereby grants to you a limited, non-exclusive, personal, non-sublicensable, non-transferable, non-assignable license to install and use the executable form of the Software on a single computer or device, (whether mobile device or other), solely for your personal use, provided that you use the Software on a computer, device (whether mobile device or other) owned or controlled by you. You may make a single copy of the Software for backup purposes. Conduit reserves all rights in the Software not expressly granted to you in this EULA."


Again, I never felt like I was being treated like a criminal or with disrespect because I was told my license was on a single computer. Having this in their EULA just keeps someone from redistributing their software. That is all I want to do. And there is a point where they would choose to enforce this license. If I were a large corporation with multiple developers, they would definitely want each system to purchase a license. That is all I ask, that each "user" purchase a license.

And again, if you personally choose to feel that individuals that purchase your games can, use it on "any system they want to," I don't feel the need to characterize you with labels such as "treating people like criminals" or "not respecting your customer." It's simply a business choice and has no inherent moral implication in that decision.

We can argue the "value" of making software freely available as opposed to locked down. Both have value under certain circumstances in business. But neither should be considered as treating customers in a particular way. This is not a binary choice, it is multiple choice.

I could call your approach "naive" or "uninformed" but I don't have a need to "value" your judgement based on my criteria. I don't think that your choice is either naive or uninformed. I think you make these choices because they represent your approach to solving a business issue.

Let us just say that we have different approaches. I don't like my choices being characterized by value statements based on your business criteria.

I see lots of value in having an effective serial number tracking and enforcement system in place. This value not only is for my benefit, but for the benefit of my customers who may enjoy lower pricing, updates, better support and more products in the future because I protect my investment. My belief is that everybody wins if I choose protection. But I still respect your decision to follow a "different path."
Nateholio
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 05:38
If your game is multiplayer you could just make it so that customers can install it on multiple machines but it will refuse to work if it detects another copy of itself running on the network. Something similar was done with C&C Generals IIRC.

In Development: K96 - Combat Simulation
JRNTexas
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 06:45 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2011 07:30
@Nateholio

In fact, I am writing a couple of games at the same time and one of them happens to be a two player game, meant to be run on a local network.

This is a special case, in that it will allow running on two systems per serial number, but not more.

I've already written and tested my serial number management system, which requires that the game phone home at some point and send the signature of the system. It will allow the game to be run, without an Internet connection for a few times but ultimately will not work if it is not allowed to contact my server.

I intend to put in the requirements that although the game is a LAN game, it must have an Internet connection as a requirement to run. Obviously, I have to allow for times when, for reasons not controlled by the user, it does not have a connection. So I will be writing that in.

The only way that this could be defeated is for someone to run a "patch" that jumps over my serial number checking routine without executing it. I've seen that done before, in several instances, but specifically, with some software that uses a "dongle" to verify the serial number. The "patch" actually jumped over the routine that looked at the dongle. Breaking this type of protection is very time intensive as you not only have to know exactly where it goes into the routine, you have to know exactly where to jump back out for successful execution. Finding these entry and exit points and inserting your snippet of code in the right spot that does the right thing requires a fairly high level of expertise.

So you have to have someone with a fairly high level of expertise with a fairly high desire to break your code.

Any upgrade or change in the code that moves these entry and exit points and causes the patch to no longer work.
Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 08:12
Quote: "They still require you to send them your email address and they then send you a serial number. This is just a different approach to protection than I want to employ but it is still a form of protection. AND their EULA does state ONE user on ONE system (See below)."


You actually read the EULA?

TGC have been saying for many years that it's ok for us to put Darkbasic Pro on any computer we personally own since a lot of us use multiple computers. They actually change the routine for the serials every once in a while and give us all new serials... even the very first customer that bought Darkbasic Pro. Would you do that for your customers even if they bought your game 7 years ago? TGC is a great company that should be an example for you to mimic.

Now this isn't to brown nose but IanM is a respected member of this community and has helped make Darkbasic Pro better by optimizing countless commands. He has given us all his Matrix1 Utilities Plugin for free but it's so amazing we would all be willing to pay for it (at least I would). Show him the respect he deserves and if you want to see his excellent work download IanM's Matrix1 Utilities Plugins.

https://forumfiles.thegamecreators.com/download/2257747

JRNTexas
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 08:42 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2011 09:16
Quote: "You actually read the EULA?"


@Grog Grueslayer

You actually agree to a legal document with reading it?

I meant no disrespect but only ask that a difference of opinion be respected and not labeled. Like I said above, this is not a yes or no issue. It is not binary. There are multiple choices ALL having equal value.

As I said above:

Quote: "I don't think that your choice is either naive or uninformed. I think you make these choices because they represent your approach to solving a business issue."


I hope that reflects my desire to respect a difference of opinion.

I have made every effort not to demean anyone else's point of view. I went out of my way to say I respect his right to have a different opinion. I just think I should be afforded the same respect.

Just because someone has a difference of opinion, doesn't mean that they are wrong. There is no right or wrong in how you approach solving a strictly business issue and to give it a value judgement is not the right approach.

Again, I mean no disrespect but ask that a different view of the landscape not come under judgmental fire. This should not be a "right way", "wrong way" issue.

AND, I did read the EULA. And I stated FACT, it does state in the EULA, one installation on one system. When I read and agree to a legal document, which the EULA is, I typically believe that it dictates limits of usage. And I try to abide by what is asked of me, out of respect.

It's great that TGC allows users to install on multiple machines. I like all of TGC's products. I only have good things to say about them and this forum. I've been using DBPro for at least 7 or 8 years. I'm not just a user, I advocate and evangelize for TGC and encourage others to use their products.

However, that doesn't mean that there is only one way to do anything. And I respectfully ask that a different approach not be dismissed or characterized in a specific way that indicates it is has less value.

I realize that IanM is a valuable contributor to this community. I respect his involvement and dedication to making the forums a place to learn. I hope to be as valuable a contributor some day, but I realize that is a high bar to reach.

But please don't think that I am new to programming or don't have a basic understanding of the issues. I've filed over 80 software patents. I've earned my spurs. I have a right to a respectful difference of opinion.

I hope this is where this stops! I hope this has only been a debate about viewpoints. I didn't intend to start an issue, only to ask not to have my opinion labeled. I truly believe that my approach to this issue has value for those that want some level of protection. I think that IanM's approach is just as valuable to those that follow his line of thinking.
Grog Grueslayer
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 09:21 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2011 09:24
Quote: "However, that doesn't mean that there is only one way to do anything. And I respectfully ask that a different approach not be dismissed or characterized in a specific way that indicates it is has less value."


Of course there are different ways to do everything (especially in programming). But the point is that TGCs approach of trusting their customers is by far a better way to run a company. I do respect your opinion and so does IanM (probably). The main goal of this community is to help each other with code, programming methods, and fundamental ideas that'll hopefully stick with you for years to come. We don't always agree but as long as you know the opposite path exists we don't have to debate this any further. And I usually skim through EULAs... I've got too many things to do like play [INSERT FAVORITE GAME HERE] to read every word in a EULA.

Chris Tate
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 13:32
Steam test; log in from another PC:
Quote: "Dear XXX,

We've received a request to access your Steam account from a new computer
or web browser.

To complete this process, enter the following special access code into the authorization dialog before trying to log in again:
XXXX

If you did not attempt this action, please change your password immediately.

Thanks for helping us maintain the security of your account."


Chris Tate
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Quote: "Success! You now have access to your Steam account from this computer. Steam Guard has added this computer to the list of machines that are allowed to access your Steam account in the future."


basjak
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 16:27
steam are running multi million business scheme. what you see is more marketing rather than protection. this way customers remember them always.

plenty of people played broken copies of half life and others.

looking at extends pack, you will find CPU information and hard drive serial commands.
EdzUp
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2011 22:06
sorry to disappoint you guys but hacking around things like this is as simple as adding a JMP instruction just before the check so it get skipped, this way it gets bypassed completely and then your check is useless. Your time is better spent making your game as good as it can be so more people actually want to own it rather than pirate it, after all there is no game out there that cannot be pirated and copied. Yes even steam games have been pirated, they have been made into offline games and have had the login stuff hacked out of them.

If you make a game everyone wants then you dont have anything to worry about just concentrate on whats important and thats playability and getting it to run at a steady 30/60fps at all times nothing kills a game more than choppy performance .

Give the copy protection idea the elbow as its not good and it will only harm one group of people, your customers. Pirates dont worry after all one pirate hacks it out and every pirate gets it.

-EdzUp
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JRNTexas
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Posted: 4th Nov 2011 06:43 Edited at: 4th Nov 2011 06:51
@EdzUp

Let's turn this into something for fun! A kind of game.

I'll send you my copy protection routine (as an executable). You add the JMP command and send it back to me broken!

What do you think? - NOTHING SERIOUS...JUST FOR FUN...

We could even make this a contest to see if anyone here can make a routine that can't be broken by someone else here.
Nateholio
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Posted: 4th Nov 2011 11:49 Edited at: 4th Nov 2011 11:51
Quote: "We could even make this a contest to see if anyone here can make a routine that can't be broken by someone else here."


I program primarily in ASM, done so for many moons, but even I don't think it's that entertaining!

Oh, and HCF, that's my entry.

In Development: K96 - Combat Simulation
WLGfx
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Posted: 4th Nov 2011 14:24 Edited at: 4th Nov 2011 14:37
With the availability of the internet more freely available to everyone and the "DemoScene" is a website online, there's no need to get a cracked version of a game any more just to see the amazing intro they've written. I've got a hard drive with tons of the demo scene intros. I love them. Most of my old asm programming on the Atari ST and Amiga 1200 was inspired by the demo scene programmers.

Over the years, a good number of those old crackers and hackers were employed by the big companies. They either helped them secure their games or secure other software for them as well as networking security, etc.

EDIT: @JRNTexas - I've come across a virtual disk library (for win32 apps) which I'm looking at that allows for extracting files to a ram disk. I'll see how I get on with that and a compression library. Saves the temp files going to the hard disk. The virtual disk expands and shrinks automatically depending on it usage...

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
BatVink
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Posted: 4th Nov 2011 16:09
Just throwing my philosophy into the mix...

People will always hack, programs will always get hacked.

1. Some people will take hacked programs from illegal download sites, conscience-free
2. Some will take a non-protected program from a friend
3. Some people won't use pirated software.

If I can make a market from #2 and #3, then I have succeeded. The people in category 1 (users, not hackers) will waste too much of my effort to totally protect myself from them. So a simple but robust protection system will suit my needs.

The category 1 people can be dealt with to whatever degree you choose. Block serials, spend hundreds of hours or thousands of gold dubloons to build a fortress around your software, or simply write them off as a business cost. So long as 2 + 3 + (n% of 1) = the market you wish to serve then you have succeeded.

JRNTexas
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 07:29
@BatVink

I think you're right.

All I am aiming for is group 2.

As long as you can institute a decent serial number system, not make it cumbersome or where it will penalize legitimate users, then it only effects those in group 2.

Group 3 will only see it when they first register or move to a new computer.

Group 1 will never see it at all.

And, if you have to spend more time writing the checker than you spent writing your game, it would only be worth it, IF you intended to reuse it on several games.
Mobiius
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 15:36
Quote: "if you have to spend more time writing the checker than you spent writing your game, it would only be worth it, IF you intended to reuse it on several games. "

I'd disagree. As Batvink said, if you spend more time on the copy protection, it better save more money than it costs in lost sales through piracy.

It's all down to money. When your game cost countless millions, you spen more money on copy protection.

When your game is done in the bedroom and you're lucky to sell 100 copies, is it worth your time writing the best copy protection system you can?

My signature is NOT a moderator plaything! Stop changing it!
EdzUp
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 19:17
Quote: "It's all down to money. When your game cost countless millions, you spen more money on copy protection."


And its put on torrent sites before it even hits the shops, a lesson to be learned there dont ya think?

-EdzUp
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The Slayer
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 19:41
Quote: "a lesson to be learned there dont ya think?"

Which is?

I think the best protection I saw was with C64 games. The machinecode was on the floppy and scrambled. Only when running the game, the code was getting unscrambled and placed in the right memory blocks. When the game was running, you couldn't see any of the code (except if you had a specific cartridge which allowed you to see/change the machinecode/assembly). So, once the floppy was taken out, the code was gone too.
And even if you had such a cartridge, you'd still needed a very good knowledge of machinecode or assembly.

JRNTexas
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 20:30 Edited at: 5th Nov 2011 20:52
Many (maybe most) large and legitimate software companies employ some form of copy protection. Can most of it be defeated? Sure. If it's just going to be defeated anyway, then why do they keep investing their money in doing this? They are just protecting their software from those in the "middle ground".

The middle ground is a group of people, like BatVink said above, that will swap, share and redistribute your games if it is easy to do. This group may account for the vast majority of the pirating that happens.

<EDIT>
@ The Slayer

Quote: "I think the best protection I saw was with C64 games."


Back when floppies were used, I wrote an assembly language routine that wrote and read the serial number "between the tracks".

Any normal read or write to the floppy would never see the data. If you copied the floppy, it would not copy the serial number. You would have to know the exact spot where the serial number was written to retrieve it and there was no "trail" that it had ever been written. That copy protection was never broken. It just went away when we stopped using floppy disks to distribute software.
</EDIT>
Chris Tate
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 20:39 Edited at: 5th Nov 2011 20:42
It is obvious that everyone here understands that we need to treat customers well; but the question is, is game anti-piracy even worth talking about here? consider this:

The more quality the more customers.
The more customers the more attention.
The more attention the more piracy.

Could that possibly be untrue?

It was just the other day I saw some kid post up his own DirectX game sprite extracter live on the GameDev forum. (I assume he is kid based on his sentence structure) I'm fed up of people telling me that you have to encrypt all of your media into hidden files, oooh otherwise people will steal your hard work; this kid is extracting content directly from the realtime engine.

Not too long ago, that guy from Cornwall was it? He hacked into the CIA; and then there is that Essex guy who hacked into Sony.

On one end, if a corporation as huge as Microsoft cannot even protect their own software from being hacked by their own people, why do they even bother to try to protect it? Sure every little helps; but if someone doesn't want to pay for it, are serial numbers and authentication checks going to stop them from using the software, or would they rather have them go and get an Apple OS or some other OS instead.

At the other end, who'd sell software if nobody purchased? Who'd bother with printing price tickets and packaging if Ad revenue was far better?

Moreover, if you have to beg your best friend to play for five minutes, and couldn't sell 5 copies for 5 pence; and if your 11 year old nephew wouldn't bother to download it for free regardless of how much work was put into protecting the game, it makes no difference to the situation. It's only somewhat worth it if it truely is a good game.

Much worse, the trigger happy pirates may already have a ready made hack for all the games built on the development framework; and they may have already at least put some thought and money into overriding serial number checks and they are just waiting to push that decompile button.

Worse than that, right here, I could be a pirate doing some field research; and EdzUp could be a notorious undercover torrent server lord.

Although I feel that I will work with registration and serial numbers as it is easy to produce and that much more difficult for some wannabe hacker or some stingy rich kid who never likes to pay; I'll generally stick by the 80/20 rule.

Half the time people just forget to buy your stuff, if you don't remind them effectively.

I think I will assume that if I am fortunate, my game will be popular enough for some dude to create a torrent for it before it is released, a large number of guys here and there will pirate my game, and I will assume that my next door neighbor is a nosy hacker hacking into my wirelss router. If one of my games is that good enough to be hacked by everyone everywhere, then congratulations to me, I made it.

What I'd like to know is how people are dealling with cheaters? Are cheaters often pirates, or is that far fetched? What would you do if someone purchased your multiplayer game and cheated like nobody ever before?

Nothing makes me click that uninstall icon faster than some 13 year old kid roving about from server to server, poking fun at me walking through walls and taking out everyone left right and centre, whilst I'm still reading page 2 of the manual.

JRNTexas
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 21:31 Edited at: 5th Nov 2011 21:37
I started this tread with a simple question. I really didn't intend to get that deep into "why" or "if" or anything else. But it seems that every time I post something to get someone to understand that I'm just looking for technical answers, someone has to question, "what good is it?"

I don't mind having that conversation. I don't mind it being a debate. I'd be glad to debate my point of view. Although I truly believe that there are people who arrive at a completely different conclusion than I do, based on criteria that is unique to their experience and beliefs.<EDIT> And I can't argue with them or convince them otherwise and shouldn't try</EDIT>

I even appreciate and understand many of the comments made here and some of them have made me ponder or re-ponder some issues. So all is good with me!

@Chris Tate

I agree with 99% of every thing you said and I had a good laugh with your statements like:

Quote: "Nothing makes me click that uninstall icon faster than some 13 year old kid roving about from server to server, poking fun at me walking through walls and taking out everyone left right and centre, whilst I'm still reading page 2 of the manual."


- very funny!

However, I don't agree with this statement:

Quote: "is game anti-piracy even worth talking about here?"


Which was a part of this larger statement:

Quote: "It is obvious that everyone here understands that we need to treat customers well; but the question is, is game anti-piracy even worth talking about here? consider this:

The more quality the more customers.
The more customers the more attention.
The more attention the more piracy.

Could that possibly be untrue?"


Considering your statements, the more...etc., etc. I agree!

The best statement you made (in paraphrase) is I can only hope I can write something that anybody wants to copy.

OK...then what?

While for many, writing games is a hobby (and a great hobby), if I didn't think that I personally had a chance of writing something that could produce significant sales I wouldn't bother.

My philosophy may be a little different, but this is not an exercise in how I spend my idle time. I am doing this for business reasons. I expect to make a profit from my efforts, which extend beyond gaming.

I am also using DBPro to write some prototypical software that I intend to patent. This isn't a pipe dream. I have several software patents. Patents do not keep people from copying and sharing your software. It only provides one level of protection, that you have to spend money to defend. Patents protect you from other companies using your ideas to sell their software. They don't protect you against the end-user (so much).

So for me, a little effort spent providing a medium level of protection is well worth it. While involved in my prototyping, I have decided to write some games, to help in the considerable costs of taking my other ideas to market.

Since I am already writing copy protection for my non-game software, written in DBPro, I want to apply those same copy protection concepts to my games.

I not only have a technical background but a deep marketing background. So I fully appreciate the concept of taking care of your customer. In fact, every other concept comes after that.

So any discussion of, "is it worth talking about" or "is it worth the effort" or "is it fail safe" or "is it 'right' or 'wrong'" are considerations I answered 20 years ago.

For me, it's "strictly business". I ask things on a "need to know, technically" basis. Not on a, is it worthwhile or is it the right way to treat customers. I've already made that decision.

And, if you want to treat your customers well, you'd have to stand in line behind me!
JRNTexas
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 22:01
@WLGfx

Quote: "EDIT: @JRNTexas - I've come across a virtual disk library (for win32 apps) which I'm looking at that allows for extracting files to a ram disk. I'll see how I get on with that and a compression library. Saves the temp files going to the hard disk. The virtual disk expands and shrinks automatically depending on it usage..."


Are your referring to a way to protect your assets and possibly hide serial number and "sensitive" information?

If so, I wrote an article in the latest (Nov '11) Newsletter about protecting your assets:

Protecting your assets
WLGfx
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 22:43
Yes I spotted that in the Newsletter and interesting too. Similar path to what I'm going down at the moment.

I've been going through the standard windows LZ headers too (similar to extracting .cab files). Rarlib was good as it could used with password protected archives but not a free license to use. Zlib I can't find a reference to password protecting archives, and it requires another dll, so I might just use encryption with the standard windows LZ files. Windows cabinet files are easy enough to build yourself too.

More for the reasons of protecting the software's assets from prying eyes. There has been quite a fuss made recently about that subject so I'm looking into various ways of going about it. Even with the standard windows LZ method, files can be read from an archive directly into memory.

When it comes to serial numbers, they can be encoded within those files, hidden and encrypted.

With regards to all the others comments I've read on here, I do think that Microsoft does do one thing right and that is, if you buy Windows, and want to upgrade it, then you have to register your genuine copy. Even with the amount of dodgy windows going around, Microsoft still makes a hell of a killing in sales.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
JRNTexas
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Posted: 5th Nov 2011 23:28 Edited at: 5th Nov 2011 23:31
@WLGfx

The things I like about DBPro's Dirblock are:

1) It's built-in
2) Is' simple and straight forward (two commands)
3) The scheme is pretty effective

So I don't have to worry about learning how to use or interface to another system.

There's no learning curve using it in DBPro if you already use DBPro. It operates like any other function in DBPro.

You have to know the original directory name to begin to unscramble the file.
IanM
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 01:08
DBPro's Dirblocks are a convenience, not a security measure.

It is trivial to write code that can get the filenames, filesizes and file content from a Dirblock.

Agent
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 01:39 Edited at: 6th Nov 2011 01:43
In my experience, people tend to misunderstand the purpose of the process commonly referred to as "Copy Protection".

The idea isn't and has never been to eliminate piracy. After all, it's called copy protection, not prevention. It's the same principle as applies to a shopkeeper locking the door to his corner store. You can't trust people to do the right thing, even though not everyone who can do the wrong thing, necessarily will. But the people who will, are going to altogether break the lock along with any other security measures on their way in.

Put another way, the purpose of the lock isn't to keep everyone out. The idea is simply to make it juuuuuuuust hard enough to discourage most people (ie, the casual snooper). Someone who really wants in (ie, the career criminal) is going to get in one way or another, no matter how good your lock (or automated robotic nuclear powered military security system).

As far as software protection goes, you want a simple system that's juuuuust effective enough to stop common users from simply dumping the program folder to a USB drive and sticking it in another machine with no further effort than that. This will stop most piracy, and that's the idea. Using an install key, unique to each user, is plenty for this purpose, and isn't a terrible inconvenience to legitimate users. On the other hand, there is no protection in the world that will stop the software cracker groups from doing their thing (they love the challenge - the harder it is, the more confident you can feel that they'll crack it), so any protection system stronger than this is meaningless.

The casual snoop won't break the lock of your shop, and won't be inclined to defeat the CD-Key copy protection system. The career criminals and software cracker groups will defeat any measure you put in place.


Quote: "You actually read the EULA?"

Lol @ Grog. Did you know that there is a clause in the iTunes EULA that goes something like this:

"I agree not to use iTunes in the manufacture of nuclear, chemical or biological weapons."

I stumbled across it by accident - you have to scroll down to the bottom before you can click I Agree, and my mouse slipped off the scroll bar on the way down, coming by sheer fluke upon that clause. I rofled my face off for days telling people about my discovery.

If I want to use my copy of iTunes to make biological weapons, I will, fascists.

EDIT: I can't get over it! Why the sh!t would I possibly want to install iTunes on my nuclear frikken missile? So it would play our damn national anthem all the way in to the enemy city?

Many lols!

JRNTexas
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 02:51
@IanM

By this time, I hope we are not at odds with each other. We both appreciate and use TGC products and are ultimately going in the same direction. An honest discussion of any issue always brings things to light that can only help, especially when the discussion is from differing viewpoints.

Quote: "DBPro's Dirblocks are a convenience, not a security measure."


This is for my edification, and isn't meant to be a rhetorical question, but what is the convenience?

@Agent

Quote: "It's the same principle as applies to a shopkeeper locking the door to his corner store."


I couldn't have said it better.

I'm not after absolute protection, I just want to make it less likely that the average user will give a friend a copy.

After all, it is trivial to enter most retail establishments after closing time, glass isn't much of a deterrent in our physical World, but most people wouldn't think of doing it.

However, there are a certain number of people who would enter an electronics store or a music store or a jewelry store after they're closed, IF the door were left standing open, with the idea of taking something while nobody was home. Then there is a group of people who wouldn't even if the door was open. Then there is the group that will do it, even if the door is closed and locked.

I just don't want the knob to turn when they check my store to see if it's "open". They can always break the glass.

Just as another note, I have built some doors in the past that no one picked the key. (see my note to The Slayer above).
Chris Tate
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 02:52 Edited at: 6th Nov 2011 03:01
Quote: "It is trivial to write code that can get the filenames, filesizes and file content from a Dirblock."


Not to mention creating a DBPRO executable with : READ DIRBLOCK
written in it. Are easy to produce security measures not also easy to breach, in most cases?

But at least what you do will be better than nothing if you are worried about casual manipulation as you mentioned before.

However, what I am about to say is not to say that your ideas are bad, mine are no better, I'm just trying to contribute ideas; I also would like to earn more profit. I also would like to figure out how to raise security without spoiling the experience for genuine customers.

I must emphasize point A: I emphasize that yes, we all understand that we must treat customers well, and yes we know that we are not Blizzard Entertainment, we just want more piece of mind; and it is just that we'd also like to make things more difficult for the pirates. Plus, I particually do not want to be known as that boy who claims to have produced [Enter Name of Product] EG: Something at similar scale to Facebook; only to hand over the credit to a skillful crook.

I should really go to bed, but you guys are really making my stomach boil with fire with those comments. I am sure the hackers reading this must be laughing like crazy; we should post this on a hacking forum so that it kills them to death with laughter. Now I am not saying that I know much better; but we need to stop under-estimating these guys.

Password protected archives sounds a little bit more difficult to get around; but what happens if the passwords gets found out; its like finding the small key that opens many locked doors. The effort put in to create and update the archives is indefinitely wasted once the password is found. And where is this password being stored? In a variable or as a literal in a program that can be decompiled and read? How long does it take to distribute the password over the internet?

We need to first accept that our source code is not protected. So any security measure that is rendered useless after a single act by one individual, isn't worth considering. We need something that can be secured again once breached. So it is obvious that changing the password will not suffice.

My mind thinks about the kind of person who is even looking for your media folder in the first place; it says alot about what they have been doing in life, maybe for years. Maybe there is an archive password hacking tutorial on google, who knows.

We've got to think like the hacker really. What's the first thing they will assume when they see the data files? they'd probably assume that since there are no recognizable media files, that 'these must be file archives. What was this software made in? DBPRO.' or 'Since this has got to be an archive, what Dlls could have been used to produce it; let's email Bob and ask him for his archive hack list'

With software as popular as DarkBasic, you're going to have a hard time protecting your stuff against DarkBasic users with part-time hacking jobs.

For your effort to be worth while, you simply must develop something more harder to crack than that; its like level 2 on Sonic the Hedgehog for these guys. You would have to think something up more difficult to give most hackers a hard time; hacking is their life, it pays their rent; they probably earn more money than some of us; definately more than me; which is why I assume that my efforts are futile as a solo developer.

I'm just randomly posting up ideas here: You could pack sensitive stuff together into a series memblocks in a obfuscated manner, and then save memblocks into fileblocks; or something along those lines to at least give DBPRO hackers something extra to figure out.

Another idea if you are creating an online game, is to have fragments of your stuff downloaded and have some of the small content downloaded from your server directly through packets, never the hard drive; then the only way to get the content is to get into the network packets, which sounds more difficult crack to me, than figuring out what a file is for and what is in it; the size of the file alone gives it away somewhat.

Network transfer is slow, but at least some of your content will never reach the hard disk. The least sensitive data could sit in your archives. But the disadvantage of this idea is that it encourages people to hack your server.

Another idea is splitting the content up into various files in such a way that someone would have to decompile your source code to know what is going on; and when they do, the functions which deal with the files are obfuscated, have no meaning without a written document you keep in your office. But still, once that has been found out, everyone on the planet will find it out; however, this is far more time consuming than hacking a packed file. The more complicated, the more difficult to hack.

Quote: "Even with the amount of dodgy windows going around, Microsoft still makes a hell of a killing in sales."


Very true, sales are still made; hence they still bother to print price tickets.

Quote: "My philosophy may be a little different, but this is not an exercise in how I spend my idle time. I am doing this for business reasons. I expect to make a profit from my efforts, which extend beyond gaming."


Same here. Based on your experience, the type of product and your target audience, you know more than anyone else how bad it is going to be for you if a large group of your players ended up not paying half dime for the amount of hours you put into your work. It's up to everyone to judge what to do about their own customers.

For me, and my online game project, I am more worried about people cheating and selling game currency, things like that which ruin the experience for other players. I'd feel more comfortable if 20% of my players did not pay to play the game, than if 20% of them did pay only to ruin everyone elses experience by cheating and taking the mick out of people.

At least these pirates will spread some word of mouth advertising, letting people know that my game exists, for me. But what if 75-80% of my players didn't pay? What if you had 1000 players, but only 200 sales? Knowing me I'd probably commit suicide, but seriously, having a registration system with some sort of link between order transactions at least lets you know who paid and who to suspect. (Re-emphasizing point A above)

Edit: Note about shop lifting illustration.

I've worked in retail for years; I worked in a wealthy area known as Kingston; somewhat the south west of London. Kids steal every day, and when they get caught they do not go to jail; and the shop keeper does not get his stock back from the police. The people who steal know that they are on camera, yet they come back for more every week. Eventually the Chairman of the chain forced the managers to get rid of the security guards; that's right. The chairman and board of directors felt that they were useless! Because the amount of money required to pay them was higher than what was being stolen. More people stole more often after they left, but it was still cheaper to let the kids steal than to raise security.

JRNTexas
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 03:13
@Chris Tate

I'm just curious what tools you are using to produce
Quote: "my online game project"
?
IanM
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 12:26
Quote: "DBPro's Dirblocks are a convenience, not a security measure."

What I meant was that they are simply a mechanism to place multiple files into a single file. This might be useful if shipping new media/scripts for your game for example.

There is no encryption or obvuscation of data, and as I said, the file format itself is very simple - so simple that anyone with any type of binary-aware editor will be able tear the file apart in minutes.

In addition, when you carry out a READ DIRBLOCK, DBPro creates a temporary directory and extracts the files from the Dirblock into that directory, completely in the clear so that you can then load them using standard mechanisms. Anyone who knows about the DBPro temp directory can simply switch to an explorer window, locate the temp directory, then make a copy of these files.

Basically, anyone interested enough to go looking for your media will have no problems finding it, and anyone wanting to insert their own media to mod your game will have little problem doing so either.

Chris Tate
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Posted: 6th Nov 2011 13:44
Quote: "I'm just curious what tools you are using to produce
Quote: "my online game project""


I am using DarkGDK.NET for the bulk of the game in VB. I have DBRPO and most plugins; but will only use DBPRO for tests and small tools. I started using DarkNET, but found issues and will be using another means for TCP+UDP networking.

I favour the use of reference variables, collections and LINQ queries over DBPRO arrays anyday. But if something went terribly wrong with the GDK, I would not hesitate to start over with DBPRO.

I get the feeling hackers will find it easier to get into my interpreter code and managed Dlls more easily than alternatives though.

EdzUp
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Posted: 7th Nov 2011 22:47
well i have created a rudimentary keygen and validator which might help somebody

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=191153&b=6

-EdzUp
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bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Nov 2011 13:43 Edited at: 8th Nov 2011 13:47
Quote: "Many (maybe most) large and legitimate software companies employ some form of copy protection. Can most of it be defeated? Sure. If it's just going to be defeated anyway, then why do they keep investing their money in doing this? They are just protecting their software from those in the "middle ground"."


TL;DR, but I want to point out that big companies do this to keep their games from being pirated during the first few weeks after release. After that they use it as a way to stop casual sharing. No company in their right mind does it as a permanent solution to piracy.

Further, indies, multiple indies, have tested DRM technologies and systems and have found that sales go *up* when they lax the anti piracy protections.

Trust me, TGC would *not* go lax on piracy because they want to be nice. They do it because it increases their sales, end of story.

Here's some good links to read:
http://www.shacknews.com/article/55906/world-of-goo-co-creator

http://www.positech.co.uk/talkingtopirates.html

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2010/08/being-nice-is-good-business.html

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2010/04/yet-even-more-about-evil-drm-from-hell.html

Quote: "If I want to use my copy of iTunes to make biological weapons, I will, fascists"


Did you know you can't use Java for programs to be used in a Nuclear facility?


Agent
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Posted: 10th Nov 2011 21:44
Quote: "Did you know you can't use Java for programs to be used in a Nuclear facility?"

Why not? Is this a law? In what country?

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