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3 Dimensional Chat / 3DS Max Warning / Slow Load Time

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MjG0001
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Posted: 26th Nov 2011 19:03
Don't export your levels and characters in the .3ds file format.

DBP will load it, but exponentially slower than it would a .x file. Also, with .x, if you apply the texture in 3DS Max, and then export properly, you do not have to texture it in the game engine, with the only caveat being that the .bmp file associated to the model must be in the same directory with it.

3DS Max 2011 v13 does not come with the .x plugin. You'll have to download it from Pandasoft. Place this file in your plugin directory and reset the program. You should be good to go if you placed this in the right spot.
Quel
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Posted: 27th Nov 2011 11:08
Not to mention that loading .3ds causes random crashes...

-In.Dev.X: A unique heavy story based shoot'em ~35%
-CoreFleet: An underground commander unit based RTS ~15%
-TailsVSEggman: An Sonic themed RTS under development for idea presentation to Sega ~15%
MrValentine
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Posted: 27th Nov 2011 14:51
Thanks for answering. long time question... Regarding .3ds. files... with DBPro what about DGDK?..

Also what other formats are supported for best results?

MjG0001
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Posted: 27th Nov 2011 16:18
I haven't used GDK yet, but intend to in the future. I understand it is faster than DBP along with being able to incorporate C++. Also, DBP has a .ico size limitation (32x32 only). I imagine GDK doesn't have this limitation since your using a C++ IDE and essentially writing a C++ program with the DBP library.

I suspect .x is the best option. When I first started learning DBP I noticed all the tutorials used .x files (hint hint). This is likely because it is optimal. I was naively using .3DS files in my games simply because I didn't know any better and DBP supported it. But when my games became larger and more complex, the loading time and FPS differences became obvious and the advantages of .x stood out.

The DBP v1.077 Help file states:

You must specify a model in the X, DBO, 3DS, MDL, MD2 or MD3 format. Once you have loaded the 3D object file successfully, you can use the specified 3D object number to position, rotate, scale, animate and manipulate your 3D object. The object number should be specified using an integer value. The optional Load Mode parameter controls how the data loaded from the model is handled, and which behaviour is required. An additional Reduce Texture mode also controls a run-time scale down of the loaded texture plate. Be aware that when you load an object that has associated textures, you are handing over texture management to the engine which will attempt to save texture memory by re-using textures previously loaded from the same filename. To take over texture management, use LOAD IMAGE and TEXTURE OBJECT commands.

Load Mode:
0-DBV1 legacy behaviour
1-DBPro : DBPRO default behaviour
2-Leave states alone to keep material/diffuse effects
3-Leave states alone to keep material/texture effects
4-Ensure object blends texture and diffuse at stage zero
5-Leave states alone to keep multi-material effects

Reduce Texture Mode:
0-No Reduction
N-Divide By N
MrValentine
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Posted: 27th Nov 2011 17:04
Thanks...

What about bsp models?

MjG0001
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Posted: 27th Nov 2011 17:48 Edited at: 27th Nov 2011 21:28
I don't use them, however I believe that is the best implementation for level design at this time despite the technology being old hat. Not only for loading time, and processing fluency, but also for good lighting. I've read many times that BSP lighting is faster and higher quality than vertex lighting. You can tell by looking at comparative images. Vertex is very dull where BSP is very realistic.

There is a lot of controversy on this issue. Some people feel BSP is still necessary, others not so much or not at all. I'm still deliberating about this myself. Common sense tells me that anything that saves time and memory is good no matter how old or even if the gains seem marginal. When your building something large and complex, everything needs to be optimized as it all adds up quickly. 100 1% savings = 100% savings. If your thinking small scalability isn't apparent, but when you build layer upon layer, the 'small' details begin to have 'large' affects.

If your levels are big, complex, interactive and you use lighting properly and your serious about professional design, I would recommend you use BSP.

BSP is great for the hull geometry, so the larger the hull geometry the more likely it is favorable. I include many static meshes into the hull geometry post level design, and run the interactive / dynamic mesh as individual objects.

I use a lot of 'zoning' / breaking levels up into small parts to conserve FPS. I've read that using both BSP and zoning is the ideal / optimal approach, but the books I read are about 2 years old.

When I build large, complex, and interactive levels, I break the map down into functional sections / zones and then have the game logic switch on/off the zones respective to the player's location and other coincidental factors depending on what the game does, WPW ( Whole Part Whole ) Interoperability.

Hopefully some other people will chime in and offer more advice. I'm curious what other people do to balance function and performance. I've heard stuff about oct trees and kd trees being better than BSP if anyone wants to elaborate. TGC has made mention of 'streaming' levels. Don't forget about plugins like the 'Dark Imposters' and the 'Nuclear Glory' add on.
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 01:21 Edited at: 28th Nov 2011 01:23
Its funny you mentioned zoning.. also I did watch the 2008convention videos and noticed that the streaming was only capable in DGDK but I believe STYX with its interval... as I was just checking recently allows for active loading... perhaps I could use this... also thanks for the overview on bsp... trouble is... I am not sure 3DWS exports it... but umm my only conundrum with zoning is designing multiple levels that ... fit... I think I might hav solved the dilemma lol by exporting the first section then importing it as a package to sit alongside the new level area design... and then setup zone triggers to start loading in the nearby sections of the map... using intervals...

Someone please correct me if I got it wrong...

I am sure I read how to load .Obj files in the hands on books... but can someone shed some light? I get can not load object or find errors...

I use the standard. LOAD OBJECT command.

MjG0001
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 02:05 Edited at: 28th Nov 2011 02:15
1.) You do not 'export' a .bsp file you 'compile' it.
2.) 3DS Max does not compile BSP.
3.) You need a program like 'Valve Hammer Editor' to compile BSP. I think this is it: (click here)

I got the zoning concept from a book called 'Game Level Design' (click here)

If your creating maps in 3DS Max, you can save a 'super file' which is the whole map. Then delete sections of it, and save the remainder as 'Zone_001' and 'Zone_002', etc. If you do this, you won't have to 'line up' the levels in DBP because 3DS Max preserves the coordinates.

I don't understand your questions about loading objects. You'll have to be more specific. In general, if you can't load an object, my first question would be, is there a problem with the object file your attempting to load or are you mis-using / mis-typing the command? Perhaps you can write and attach a code snippet to help us perceive your problem?

Hope this helps.
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 02:34
3DWS not max...

Umm I use a .x model works fine... was trying a downloaded .obj file from ts.com I need to look into .obj compatibility or commands frkm that book... hands on...

MjG0001
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 02:47
Ah, 3D World Studio. Sorry, I thought that was a typo but I should have realized what you were talking about.

You can import the .obj file into 3DS Max then export it as .3ds or .x.

You probably don't have to refer to the 'Hands On' book so much if you have already read it. I don't own those books and I have already built several games. I use the 'Help / DarkBASIC Professional Help' files. Also, you can type a command, put the cursor on it and press 'F1' and the help file associated to that command will open. Also hovering your mouse over the command will show you the parameters that the command takes. All great stuff to help you learn / memorize the commands and their parameters. The language practically teaches itself.

If your a novice you should also check out Daniel Foreman's YouTube tutorials if you haven't already. Very fun and helpful. (click here)
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 12:05
Nonono... not a novice... lol just I remember from last year that the handson book had a parameter for handeling obj files... but yeah will try inporting into 3DWS shortly and get back here

MjG0001
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 17:44
The only other stab in the dark I can make here is maybe your talking about the 'save static object' and 'load static object' commands? That is the only alternative to 'save object' and 'load object' that I am aware of. As far as a parameter that goes with the 'load object' command to allow loading .obj files, I've not ever come across that. If it isn't in the help files or on this forum I have no way of knowing about it.

I don't have 3DWS, I use 3DS Max. So I don't know what it's capabilities are. But if you have 3DS Max you should be able to import it and then export it to a file type that 3DWS can use.

Seriously, I'm intrigued. I would like to know what your solution is, that way I can learn something to. I'm surprised no one else has commented yet.

Thanks.
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 18:42
I may have confused obj with dbo..



I will continue to look into this...

MjG0001
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 20:06
What is the problem?:

1.) Importing a .dbo into 3DWS
2.) Generating a .dbo file in 3DWS
3.) Loading a .dbo from 3DWS into DBP
4.) Generating a .dbo using DBP?
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 20:10
Importing a .obj into dbpro...

MjG0001
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 20:20
To the best of my knowledge you cannot import a .obj file into DBP. Maybe you should contact TGC and ask them directly.

You can load .dbo into DBP.

There is nothing in the help files regarding a parameter that allows you to import .obj files into .dbo. I don't have the hands on books, so I can't reference them. I don't have 3DWS so I don't know if it will import .obj files or not. Again, you can contact TGC directly and ask them. (click here)

If you have 3DS Max you can import the .obj file and the export it as .3ds or .x, which DBP can load.

You may like to Google and look for an application that can convert .obj files into .x files.

Lastly, you can email me the .obj file and I'll convert it into .x for you and email the conversion back if it will help you stay productive until you resolve the issue.
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 20:49
Thanks... ghe obj file is on turbosquid... was planning on trying out some of their high detail models to see if they worked in dbpro

I meant that I confused obj for dbo... so ignore the obj in hands on book...

But yeah will look into 3dsmax... how much is it currently? Else I will look around for an converter... thanks I might ask you for the temp convert soon... back home now but will try to forward the file to you later...

MjG0001
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 21:13
3DS Max is very expensive. To the tune of $3,500.00 USD. Vastly over-priced. It is nice, but isn't made of gold. Mudbox is also nice, however it should be integrated into 3DS Max, my opinion. Especially considering the price...

I suggest that if your building games that you use a low poly model to conserve memory and cps / fps. High polys look great, but they are not game assets. Once you have your level running, your NPCs, your player, your collision, your game logic, your AI... you'll find out high polys are not game assets. You have to be very clever and very conservative.

I'll convert it. No problem.
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 21:55
Umm... I heard using really good textured models with low poly has good results... but ahahahaha the textures tend to get big themselves...

MjG0001
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 22:01 Edited at: 28th Nov 2011 22:24
I would keep textures and skins square, binary, and well under 512 x 512 px. You can use normal mapping to compensate for geometry. Large textures kill FPS. Also use mipmapping where it applies.
MrValentine
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 23:10
Thanks... I am still yet to learn mipmapping and normal mapping..

MjG0001
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Posted: 28th Nov 2011 23:22 Edited at: 28th Nov 2011 23:31
Mipmapping is just a setting that tells DBP how to manage textures.

--------------------------------------------------------------

DBP v1.077 / 'Help -> DarkBasic Professional Help' / Set Object Texture

Every texture is painted onto an object using an internal set of values called UV data. This data contains a range of real numbers from zero to one. Zero specifying the top/left corner of your texture and one being the bottom/right corner of your texture. When an object uses UV data greater and less than this range, you are permitted a number of texture wrap modes to describe what should happen to paint these areas. Setting the Texture Wrap Mode to zero will use the default wrap mode which repeat the pattern of the texture over and over, a mode of one will mirror the texture to create a seamless texture pattern and a mode of two will set clamping which retains the colour of the last pixel at the textures edge and paint with that throughout the out of range area. The Mipmap Generation Flag is used to ensure the image has a mipmap texture. A mipmap is a texture that has many levels of detail, which the object can select and use based on the objects distance from the camera. Use integer values to specify the parameters.

--------------------------------------------------------------

A normal map is a texture that changes the way 'light' reflects off an object. Normals are lines or paths that extend from an objects surface. These normals have vectors / angles. By changing the angle of these 'normals' you can simulate geometry.

If you know anything about how terrain height is calculated using a gray image, where white is high and black is low and all the gray colors are anything inbetween, normal maps are similar in concept. Except they use RGB coloring for x,y,z data.

Like a door... conservative geometry would just be a thin rectangle with no details common to decorative doors. By applying a texture and a normal map to this thin rectangle you can simulate the affects of detailed geometry by playing with how 'light' reflects off of it. Example: (click here)

Normal Mapping Intro / Wikipedia: (click here)
MrValentine
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Posted: 29th Nov 2011 13:23
Success I found that 3D Crafter can import .obj files and hopefully the free version given to tgc DGS owners will do the trick of converting it... Fingers crossed.

MjG0001
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Posted: 29th Nov 2011 13:38
DGS? Are you talking about GDK?
MrValentine
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Posted: 29th Nov 2011 13:53 Edited at: 29th Nov 2011 14:08
Dark Game Studio lol you are not good with TLR"s are you

EDIT

people that bought Dark Game Studio got a free licence to 3D Crafter SE recently.

TGC are so EPiC COOL.

MjG0001
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Posted: 29th Nov 2011 14:06
I figured you meant GDK but I was not assuming because you originally used 'DGDK' and TGC comes up with new products relatively quickly. Just make'n sure.

TLR"s? Do you mean TLA's? As in 'Three Letter Abbreviations'? Just make'n sure.

Did your conversion work?
MrValentine
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Posted: 29th Nov 2011 14:21 Edited at: 29th Nov 2011 14:36
No idea why I type TLR lol but yeah TLA... Hmm need to work that one out...

I tried to use it on my shop pc using RDP lol okok Remote Desktop... But it failed catastrophically lol... I think I need to be at the pc to launch the app... Oh well guess it will have to wait...however I do have a maching that I could.. If it would finish updating try to install the app on and see if it works that way...

Thanks a lot buddy... Hope we can do some sort of project eventually I like your level headedness.

EDIT

gave it a quick go using another method to connect...

I think importing .obj os going to be fun...

Can not report much until I can properly use the app on a system properly...

MjG0001
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Posted: 29th Nov 2011 14:47
I'm still a novice. I wish TGC would amp up their training with a video tutorial making a very high quality game in DBP / GDK.

My games work, but they are far from commercial quality. Loading takes a bit, graphics are not crisp or exciting. Really coming up with what makes the game 'fun' is the biggest challenge of all. I don't feel like a game developer at all, I feel like a movie producer with all the equipment and no script.

Really game design is a recent interest for me. It started out as a joke. I told a comedian that it would be funny if they had a video game... and then it turned into a challenge.

I'm actually interested in AI concepts and saw DBP / GDK as a way to build and test concepts quickly and inexpensively with handsome graphical analysis. Building robots is prohibitively expensive. Just one decent servo or linear actuator can cost hundreds of dollars. DBP is certainly not made for that, but I have fun with it anyway.

I build games with an emphasis on AI, not spell binding graphics or WOW game play. And really I don't have a nack for what makes a game 'fun'. My nerdy idea of fun is not that of the average gamer. I only know fun as an intellectual challenge, creativity, planning, and problem solving. Shooting and stabbing virtual playmates to death is only fun for about 2 seconds. And once you've shot and stabbed one haven't you shot and stabbed them all?
MjG0001
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Posted: 30th Nov 2011 01:40
Did you solve your .obj conversion problem?
MrValentine
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Posted: 30th Nov 2011 01:55 Edited at: 30th Nov 2011 01:56
Urm its still the same day... Will try to Install 3D Crafter on laptop once its finished with updates shortly...fimgers crossed...

EDIT

The neverending tale of the typo...

JLMoondog
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Posted: 30th Nov 2011 15:15
One thing to consider is that the reason it takes so long for DBP to load a 3ds file is because it first converts the model to x format before loading it for use. If you look in your DBP folder there is actually a 3ds->x converter program already available for you to use. Just open the program, select your model and hit convert.

MjG0001
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Posted: 30th Nov 2011 17:07
Thanks for the explanation and confirming that .x is the fastest way to load and why.

I originally preferred .3ds over .x because frames are easier to manage than ticks with animated object files, but now that I have the hang of it, it isn't a problem at all.

I looked in the 'Compiler' and 'Editor' and 'Tools' folders, I didn't find the program. What folder is it in and what is the program name? I'm sure I'm over looking the obvious.

Thanks!
JLMoondog
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 08:16
Sorry, it would seem it was in my Dark Basic Tools folder, not the Dark Basic Pro Tools folder. :p

MjG0001
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 14:57
Read your website, hey excellent art work. I think Mr. Valentine's company might be interested in working with you as a media consultant or as a media artist for game assets.

My work flow is 3DS Max / .obj to Mudbox back to 3DS Max and then I export as .x. I've learned the hard way after hours of frustration.
MrValentine
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 15:06 Edited at: 1st Dec 2011 15:07
weird thought i replied to this already... I tried the obj to x conversion it worked and exported limb names and animations I guess... just need to test the exported x with a model viewer soon... I plan to make a custom one soon...


which website?

EDIT

I for i for I for i...

MjG0001
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 15:11
Just under Josh's posts is a hyperlink to his website, like your Dev Mug banner.
MrValentine
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 15:18
oh, but where does this come from?

Quote: "I think Mr. Valentine's company might be interested in working with you as a media consultant or as a media artist for game assets."


not that I am against it in any way... but his skill is FAAAAR BEYOND that of mine... in that field.

MjG0001
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 15:25
Josh Mooney sells his services.

You can generate concept art for levels, props, and characters and he could generate the 3D models and textures for your games. A team collaboration. Speeds up the game design process dramatically, which is a boon if your interested in producing a lot of games. It would free you up to focus on the programming.

Just a thought, if you don't mind sharing the labor and credit of a game.
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 15:32
I agree, if I had the budget

but Josh is in the states... i am a hands on type of person so prefer everybody in the same room...

But would love to employ Josh if I could. and Would!

MjG0001
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 15:57
If you want high quality art you can't be picky about the location of the collaboration. His website is proof that he can and does do good work. Secondly, he has his name / reputation to protect. Third you can give him one piece of concept art and see how that collaboration goes, then decide if you all can do business based on that experience. And all business relationships eventually fade, no fault of either party. Life happens.

I think working with someone across the pond is more interesting and resourceful than assuming someone that is in your physical space is easier to work with. That is probably not the case. You can tell by Josh's website that he has the energy, time, skill, personality, and motivation to create digital art.

The bigger and better the game.. you eventually have to divide up labor. Your not going to produce something you can be proud of or sell in a reasonable amount of time without help. Unless your cool with working on a game for a long time.
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 16:07
MjG0001, did you just become my ad rep?

Anyway you can contact me through my email or the site. My free work for peps is currently a waiting list, just to warn you.

Thanks for the interest though.

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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 16:14
Like I said I would! but I am old school in some things... however I do not deny his quality of work... I just said I like people to be in the same room, not neccessarily in the same city... if I had the budget to fly him out here and stick him in a shed for a few weeks while he did the textures and other aspects he is contracted for... I WOULD

[sorry Josh I do not really mean a shed... more a urm how do you call it... a room ]

Until I have that sort of budget... I shall stick to doing things myself until I have some money and need someone like josh to up the anty and make them more impressive...

I am considering getting that program Genetica but... its a bit out of my budget right now got a pricey phone bill to pay off soon... after that I will gladly buy it... but for bringing in talent... I will wait to raise a bit of finance before doing so and also I hope to get some games done soon... then for the finishing touches get some of the Forum Boys [and if any Girls] to assist and pay them accordingly

Actually I have been thinking of getting voice overs... I know there are professional sites out there that do it but I think I would like to stimulate some cash across this here forum as there are GREAT personalities on here... and I think Blue and erm forgive me if I got this wrong Red Fox? might be able to help hehe...

JLMoondog
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 16:49
This is from the 100th newsletter issue. I had 100 models and 100 textures made up for free for the community:

100 Free Models

100 Free Textures

Could use a good look through before you dish out the cash on genetica.

MrValentine
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Posted: 1st Dec 2011 17:06
Thanks Josh will have a look... I need textures for 3DWS mainly

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