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Weave
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 22:18
After having turned my .ogg files into a memblock, the question still remains as to how I find the actual sound data within each byte as I attempt an Audio Level Meter.

There is a Wiki on the ogg pages here :-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg_page

And tech specs here:-

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3533#page-3

This program using EAP by Torrey Betts seems to work, but seems is a big word and I am having difficulty as the chosen file is a .ogg...:-





The command `audio get output buffer(audio number, Pointer, buffer size)` is undocumented, so was just wondering if anyone has solved this connundrum as to how to make an audio meter...

You`ll need a small wav file for that too...see enclosed

Any help decoding/extracting from .ogg much appreciated
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 22:28
How are you creating the memblock?
Weave
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 22:44
To create my memblock....



for the actual sound to be played

then


then to get a value I am using ...


If returning random data is a success then it`s that, but do you think I have to get the actual bits and ignore certain ones in the byte to decode the sound?
TheComet
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 22:56
Audio level meter? You mean like FFT? This might interest you:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=140341&b=1

He uses the fmod.dll to play the music. The DLL also has tons of analyzers in it including the FFT. I'm not sure if that works with ogg files though, but you may as well give it a try.

TheComet

Weave
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 23:15
Thanks for the MP3 solution its a really impressive working program! ...but I guess like many I wish it were for .ogg and have to think of patent licences, fees and such, plus it would fill a knowledge/usage gap for many if this question got a solution. (Ogg being license free but not as linear to enterpret easily it seems, MP3 leading you to a hefty bill come your free demo circulating more than 5000 copies

With .ogg, going by the wiki it is a question of finding the packet size bit to lead you to the next packet and sound value bits within each packet. The rest of the data is tags and checksums for the decoder it seems....but how to read them correctly?
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 23:16
I don't think the data in OGG files have a simple 1:1 relation to the sound level at successive points in time unlike WAV files. I believe OGG files consist of a series of coefficients from a cosine or Fourier transform of the original sound so you need several coefficients in order to reconstruct the sound value at a specific point in time. The details though are beyond me.

Might be worth checking out TheComet's suggestion.

It's a shame things like the following don't work (the make memblock step causes a crash here)


Weave
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 23:21
Ah yes, GG that`s as I`m using Torreys Audio Plugin

http://darkbasicpro.blackgate.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=26

So then the load audio and make memblock are two separate tasks...
Weave
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 23:23 Edited at: 14th Dec 2011 02:21
GG it`s loading a sound and trying to make it into a memblock that is crashing it as it is an ogg file...you need to LOAD AUDIO....with the Enhanced Audio Plugin above
MrValentine
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 23:24
So... theres no issue playing ogg files but your having issues analysing them... right¿

So that means all my sounds need to be in ogg format¿... Or whats the licence on wav¿ or even wma...

Dang this thread got me thinking now... how many licence elements are there¿

Weave
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Posted: 13th Dec 2011 23:45
Yes, as it seems the data comes in `pages` which contain 32bits width and of length defined at the start of each page...then the values seems to be in the header type bits 0x02 if I remember correctly...so I was thinking we only have to read the packet length byte and the data byte to correctly track it with regard to time.

However as GG points out...you`d need to know the decoder functions...ie what maths you did to the byte to get the true value....

I did see it mentioned that they contain decoder info in their tags too...to solve this we`d need to understand the decoder aswell I think...

At that rate you`d be better making your own linear data stacker and forget about all the formats....but maybe that`s beyond me as you have to actually pass the data to direct sound...

@MrValentine...

If you freely distribute wavs...it would be the artist/publisher that you`d be in breach of....

If you freely distribute MP3/MP4, it is MP3.com you are in breach of...

If you freely distribute AAC, it is Apple Inc you are in breach of...

.ogg is an open source format that just squeezes in to the `is this linear capture?` slot as it uses pages of varying lengths...thus it compresses smaller and better than MP3 and what you create you can freely sell without license recriminations....any ideas bitheads?
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 01:19
Quote: "GG it`s load sound that is crashing it as it is an ogg file...you need to LOAD AUDIO"


Not true. Why don't you try it?
Weave
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 02:15
Indeed I have and as you reported it crashes when you try to make it into a memblock...SO when you seperate the two and load AUDIO/PLAY AUDIO followed by LOAD FILE/MAKE MEMBLOCK FROM FILE, at least you will end up with a memblock, wether this is helpfull with regards a solution or not is another matter.


For the LOAD AUDIO command as I said you will need the Advanced Audio Plugin (link above).

For this plugin I found the above program ages ago somewhere and was wondering if anyone could help in my use of the `undocumented` command- "result=audio get output buffer(1, BuffPtr, BuffSize)"

....as really this command should be able to do the thing I am trying to accomplish, but it might be that it simply won`t work on an ogg file....thx
basjak
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 11:56
I tried what you're doing before but resources are very poor to read.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 18:47
Quote: "SO when you seperate the two and load AUDIO/PLAY AUDIO followed by LOAD FILE/MAKE MEMBLOCK FROM FILE, at least you will end up with a memblock, wether this is helpfull with regards a solution or not is another matter. "


Indeed. I found the documentation for ogg files rather incomplete (when I could find any) - it was impossible to work out the necessary details. Also, www.wotsit.org seemed unable to provide the download document for ogg files.
Weave
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 19:03 Edited at: 14th Dec 2011 19:24
Emailing the Vorbis foundation yielded some results and it is almost possible to work out the details from it, even includes some possible equations...even bit/byte locations...kind of them to reply

They sent me links to the following information resources:-

http://xiph.org/ogg/doc/framing.html

http://xiph.org/vorbis/doc/Vorbis_I_spec.html


Eye-boggling reading....

....`wotsit.org` seem to be pointing at the page

http://xiph.org/ogg/doc/index.html

Where the document
is viewable online.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 19:15
Quote: "Eye-boggling reading.... "


Yes. That sort of thing makes you want to stick with .WAV files. It's a shame DBPro can't load these compressed sound formats into something analogous to a bitmap for image formats.

Nice of them to get back to you though.

A simple tutorial using a rather basic sound file would help enormously. Things would start to make sense then.
Weave
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 20:52 Edited at: 14th Dec 2011 20:53
Ok...now you did say simple...this knows nothing of packets and sizes nor does it ignore the page header, or do any bitwise interpreting but does briefly illustrate the principal.

Do you think it would be possible to ignore the header details find and decode certain of the packets and perhaps get a graphic relation of a bar meter?

I reiterate that you`ll need Torrey Betts Enhanced Audio Plugin to even try this....link up page somewhere...




Here`s an ogg to download, perhaps not the most suitable as the space in the file makes the memblock tiny as it is compressed data inside the ogg file.
MrValentine
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 22:38
Ok so WAV is ok so long as I have rights to the content right?

And I get that OGG is free and open... and I can use t in my creations openly... as [href]www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2083[/href] suggests... but... umm is using OGG... a good option for all game or app sound?... Are there any set backs to be aware of?

Thanks in advance.

Oh yeah nearly forgot my main question... so there are no problems using OGG provided I have Extensions addon for dbpro and loading them and playing is fine right?... I can not test right now out of office and no pc to test on... I have Roxio to convert to OGG I believe so no issues making the files...

Also there is no limits on WAV distribution right?

If one wanted to use dolby digital (TM) in their games... can we do this in DBPro and get the surround effect?

Hehe thought I might as well throw in the Dolby question in there while were on the topic of sound... sorry...

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 22:44
This is even simpler.

But as I said we need a simple tutorial on the ogg layout.
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Posted: 14th Dec 2011 23:57
I've been following this thread with interest because I've recently worked with the cut down version of the bass.dll (bassmod.dll) which allows playback of mod, st3, ogg, it. etc music files. And I thought that there was already a plugin for DBPro that handled these.

If not, I could make a plugin to do that if anyone is interested. The bassmod.dll would have to be included in the dir were the exe is run from though but it is a very tiny file and a small footprint. Plus a bonus is that there's millions of free mod files out there.

I'd just add simple commands as:

Load Music
Play Music
Stop Music
Delete Music

Obviously so they wouldn't conflict with other DBPro commands. And there's the options of getting extra data from the music being played too.

Let me know...

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Weave
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 02:15
@MrValentine : Well I read that a lot if not most major developers of commercial games are using ogg now as it cuts down on their development costs, so I guess there`s no reason not to if you have a decoder, which darkBasic has.

If you own the content of a wav then it is yours to jurisdict I guess. If you don`t then you are breaching copyright to distribute it or try and profit from it. But even though the format ogg is copyright free, you could still be legally held to boot if you started distributing LedZepp to everyone Stands to reason....

As regards the use of Dolby Surround, my suggestion would be to record the file with that encoded to the sound file, then you don`t have to try to replicate it inside the program.

The only setback I`ve found being how to get a value for something like an audio meter as described above, hey maybe bass.dll or bass mod can do that? If so that`d be good.

@GG- yes a tutorial would be good, there`s most of it in the files above...seems to be first 32 byte is `Vorbis` for the encoder to recognize, the next aparently holds the location of the next packet as an 8bit cluster, then the location of the stream, then it seems the packets are arranged as 4 octets of 8bits, going left channel, right channel, left channel, right channel across the byte....then presumably the decoder does a computation on the 8bit sound data and rearranges them to present them all to the sound buffer...

But if bass.dll works, then it`d be a lot simpler...is it possible to get any more details WLGfx?
MrValentine
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 02:23
So your saying... its all good...

I have no intention to distribute others material without consent or royalty agreements...

So please dont mention it as it makes your response rather confusing... but urm ok so wav is kind of ok but just go with ogg... Thanks...

Anybody know if I can use ogg in DGDK and PBGDK?

Weave
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 15:20
.wav is best, but the files are huge....ogg is the smallest at the highest quality...nearly on a par with a wav, so much so that spotify uses it and so `trumps` MP3 and Apple.

Ok so my next question is having read the memblock byte I get a normal integer back between 0 and 255...anyone know how I get it to return/be the 32bit digits....then convert it to a string and ignore differing so called octets(8 bit chunks)?

Was only wondering....

[email protected] (bassmod.dll)? Tell us more do.

Thx
Weave
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 16:07
Ok found those, here`s bassmod.dll



It seems bassmod and bass.dll`s also only handle Mp3 and wav sound files.

(Bassmod doesn`t at first glance have a command to return a value of the audio output buffer).
Weave
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 16:28 Edited at: 15th Dec 2011 17:01
Then there`s bass.dll which I guess is a dB version of bassmod, seems to do frequency/volume ok from the demo.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CPJUR5VM

Seems to have license issues too

http://www.un4seen.com/

...previous question still stands

Quote: "Ok so my next question is having read the memblock byte I get a normal integer back between 0 and 255...anyone know how I get it to return/be the 32bit digits....then convert it to a string and ignore differing so called octets(8 bit chunks)?
"



Was only wondering....
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 17:49 Edited at: 15th Dec 2011 18:54
Quote: "is having read the memblock byte I get a normal integer back between 0 and 255"


You can't get anything else from a byte. To get 32 bits you'll need to read 4 bytes - or a dword. The real question is: what do you do with the bytes once you've read them? Combining them into 32 bit dwords is easy enough.

Edit It might be worth having a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogg

You can scan a small ogg file to see which parts match up with the description. For example, the ogg file is supposed to consist of a sequence of "pages" with each page starting with the sequence OggS. I've just checked the sample file I posted a few posts back and it has three such pages. With a bit more work it should be possible to work out what the rest of the bytes mean.
WLGfx
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 20:55 Edited at: 15th Dec 2011 21:06
I'm having trouble getting on the internet at the moment but I'll sort out something for the bassmod.dll to start with. I really thought someone would have done something with it already.

After using it last last, the dll is easy to work with. It's available for personal use I know that for sure, but the bonus is that you can play anything from moddb.com, etc which has thousands of music files as well as sound fx file.

Basically the dll gives you the functionality to load and play all the obscure music files. A music file could be just 100kb where the MP3 would be 5Mb, this is because the mod (it, st3, etc) store the samples of the instruments and plays them using built in effect controllers in the dll. The mod (it, blah, blah) can have as many channels as the original editor allows, this used to be just 4, but nowadays its upto 128 channels to plays samples on.

The Demoscene (demoscene.org) coders uses these all the time as they hardly take up the cpu to play music.

I'll have a go tonight (while my internet signal is decent to grab some mod files) and come up with something ASAP to play some of these obscure music files.

EDIT: More about bassmod.dll at http://www.un4seen.com/

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MrValentine
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 21:03
Doesnt that mean basically the sounds would vary depending on the end users systems built in sound library?... I remember when I had a creative sound card it had something... umm sound banks?... which were different across each sound card chip and syatem...
Am I right in that the DLL loads these sound banks to replay each track¿... I remember reading and coming across it years ago...

WLGfx
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 21:08 Edited at: 15th Dec 2011 21:15
Most these days are comparable to the AC97 drivers which are standard in almost every computer unless they have a better sound device.

EDIT: It's only the MIDI that may vary between devices, but the mod (blah) plays exactly the same...

@Weave - I've already in the recent past used bassmod.dll (not the full blown bass.dll because I didn't need it) and yes you can retrieve data from it. I will see what I can add to the DBP plugin. Just note that the dll will have to be distributed with the exe file.

It gives me something to do in the meantime... I'm bored and with no TV to watch and the same games to play... What the heck...

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Weave
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 22:13 Edited at: 15th Dec 2011 22:15
@GG Impressive, you can check for the oggs pages....that`s key as you presumably know their locations now.

As far as I know the sound samples are arranged across the 32bit dword as follows:-

00000000 00000000 00000000 00000000 -this is our 32bit dword`byte`
11111111 22222222 33333333 44444444 -L R L R comprising 2 samples


(I left spaces just for clarity)

-1 and 2 being the left and right channels of the stereo sound,
followed by 3 and 4 as the next sound sample, left channel then right channel again.
However, the numbers 0 and 255 are reserved in these octets. If 255 is returned to mark wether the number is larger and so occupying the next sample slot, ie needing summing with the next one. This explains why it is known as a variable bit rate format, as depending on the size of the sample the number of octet pairs to describe it varies. The value 0 tells the encoder that the packet has ended (I think).

Then there is the question of the equation that the decoder uses to turn these 8bit samples into accurate 16 bit ones....

But WLGfx sounds positive we can do all this simply with bassmod...fingers crossed.

I read that a single licensee can then charge under $10 for the use of their program with this dll. Is that the case or do I need to reread something.

Going on what you say the tech specs sound very impressive and could be just what I need
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 22:20
If I still had my original code from my old Amiga I'd give it away but bassmod does everything and more. As far as I can tell from the license, I write a plugin and it's free, it's only up to the users to make whatever they will with it. If they want to sell it then that $10 may very well be worth the while. Also as far as I know that license will cover you for distribution without source code. (I'll have to read it again too but will still carry on)

I'm actually now at this point just starting to get the code together for using it. I'm bouncing between this PC and my main laptop (so I can watch TV as well) while programming. I'll post something when I've got something working in DBPro.

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TheComet
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 23:33
Quote: "Then there is the question of the equation that the decoder uses to turn these 8bit samples into accurate 16 bit ones...."


How would you stuff 16 bits into 8 bits? I can't quite follow that one...

Also, OGG files aren't linear. There are parts where a lot of info is stored in little space, and parts where little info is stored in a lot of space because it's compressed and uses some furier transform algorithm to store the sound data. So streaming the data like you're attempting from the file won't really help unless you plan to write a full decoder for it?

If that's the case, then this brings up the question : why? Why do it if there are already tools out there that'll do the job for you?

TheComet

Weave
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 00:56
The 8 bits represent the compressed sound value data, as far as I can glean from the Xiph ogg documents. So the uncompressing would be the equivalent of `multiplying` the value by our decompression factor equation, thus increasing the number of bits that the particular sample is described using.

Quote: "OGG files aren't linear."


Also, yes you`re right in that, as I mentioned, when the 8 bit value is 255, it is a signal to the decoder to over run this sample into the next octet sound sample and sum them, apparently. Thus earning the title of `variable bitrate` encoding/decoding.

Apparently it is still categorized as linear sound compression as it makes packets with regard to time, even though they are of varying sizes.

Quote: "why? Why do it if there are already tools out there that'll do the job for you?"


Indeed, why reinvent the wheel, but one needs to know of the wheels existence before choosing to use the caterpillar tracks.....that`s why these forums are so great...invariably if you ask you will learn...thanks everyone for contributing thus far, I`d not heard of bassMOD.dll prior to this thread and it sounds like WLGfx is making progress towards that goal

As far as tools go, I point out that I am using Torrey Betts Enhanced Audio Plugin to play ogg thus far, the problem being that the command `result=get audio buffer(mblk,pointer,size)` has no documentation to support it in his FAQ section and only seems to function on wav and MP3. The greater discussion became the use of Get memblock byte, dword, licensing etc... informative, to me at least
WLGfx
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 06:05
Please find attached the plugin I've done that will play music files (formats such as .mod, .st3, .it, etc)

http://modarchive.org/ is the actual address where you can grab 1000's of free music files too.

Two commands so far:

BM_PLAY file$
BM_STOP

More instructions in the readme.txt file in the archive.

Any further requests, just let me know.

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Weave
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 15:32
Brilliant WLfx...I found an encoder to convert ogg files to mo3, just need to figure how to make one now.

Just to check, can you convert a wav, ogg or mp3 to this format? Reading the site, it implies that these use instrument modules to create the sound, aswell as samples, so there would be one huge sample and no modules in the case of a wav conversion...is this the case?

Standard features only need apply here:-

-play/play from pointer position
-get sound value or peak value
-stop
-pause
-resume

(but hey I bet there are alot of game makers would love the full set )

I found some dB code to use with Bass.dll from 2002...which I can maybe post, if it`s ok, will check.

@Green Gandalf...was wondering if you`d progressed beyond looking at the pages at all...an example of that would be good if you have...one thing that could maybe do would be to recompile the ogg into an uncompressed memblock which could be used like MO3 uses a `peak file`, looks like that is how they calculate the bar graph sound meters perhaps.

Was just an idea though.

Anyway thanks again...hear soon
WLGfx
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 17:36
I've not yet used the bass.dll yet in my stuff as .mod type files are nice and small (some less than 100Kb). There are some extras I can do with bassmod.dll I'll have a look later on. I'll add a pause and resume for sure. And I'll deffo look into retrieving the volume levels per channel. There's also the option within the library to encode a wav file from the .mod file.

I'll have a play around...

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Weave
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 23:46 Edited at: 20th Dec 2011 00:22
@The Comet, any idea how you play from a position,pause and resume using fmod from the program you posted? Or set the volume playing for that matter?

Thx

Mind you, it seems it is very expensive to use for anything other than free software
Weave
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 03:44
Anyone know of an updated wrapper for irrKlang? Found an old wrapped dll in the forums from 2008 here:-

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=123876&b=18

In these examples it has everything but the Sound value out unfortunately, just wondered if anyone knew of a current db version? Looks very comprehensive judging from the site and would be well capable of Level Meters and a whole lot more. Even has Vbasic code too.

irrKlang is half the price of Bass.dll to use. fMod.dll is ten times Bass.dll`s price roughly....!
Weave
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Posted: 10th Jan 2012 19:10
...so would it not be possible to use winmm in vb to create a dll that returned the current packet from an ogg file as in this article about ogg file implementation in vb:-

http://www.codeproject.com/KB/audio-video/OggPlayer.aspx

Personally I`m quite inexperienced in dll creation and returning values...any suggestions greatly appreciated

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