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Geek Culture / CD Burners and Kazaa

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GameKit
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 16:56
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Has anyone noticed how CD burners and applications like Kazaa are going to seriously decrease all computer programmers’ profit? People can now, instead of paying for games we program, can ask a friend to make him a copy, or download it off the internet. Sure it is illegal, but I’m guessing that only 1-5% of the perpetrators are caught. I know the Music industry is trying to stop this, but what are we doing? I don’t expect to be paid for the games I make (or anytime soon anyways,) but still, when I do, my profit will probably be cut in half. My question is what methods can we use to stop, (or at least decrease) this computer piracy. One-way may be to use key-codes on the back of CD cases or to erase the needed installing files after installation. But does anyone have any easier methods?

If It Wern't For Bad Apples, Good Apples Would Only Be Average...
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 17:00 Edited at: 29th Oct 2003 17:00
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You will never stop piracy. There is no difference between CD burners now and disk copiers 15 years ago on the ST/Amiga where piracy was just as rife.

Do the best you can, but don't loose sleep over it. No-one has the perfect anti-piracy solution yet.

Cheers,

Rich

"It's easy to be mean when death equals a high score screen."
"You can take your Quake and go away, I'd rather play Bubble Bobble any day."
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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 17:23
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Piracy has been rife for years.

Quote: "My question is what methods can we use to stop, (or at least decrease) this computer piracy. One-way may be to use key-codes on the back of CD cases or to erase the needed installing files after installation. But does anyone have any easier methods?"


For shareware games published over the net, the easiest answer is to make the full game a seperate download from the trial which is only accessible after purchasing the product. Most apps which are cracked are those which are turned from trial to full just using a reg key.

If said product is distributed on CD, then CD-KEYS are pointless as they can just be distributed as a .txt file along with an ISO image of the CD. CD anti-piracy is possible, but there are always ways of beating it.


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Wiggett
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 17:28
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first make a game in dark basic that is good enough to challenge the latest games in worthyness then talk about anti piracy software. so far all i've seen is freeware, which all my games are and forever will be.



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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 18:24
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I can't agree that CD-Keys are pointless. Diablo II used a good CD-key system, and it is one of the few popular games that you will not find floating around shadier file-sharing systems.

I personally have a theory for a virtually unbreakable protection system, involving 4 levels of protection-- 3 physical and 1 dealing with data locking. But just on the wild offchance it works, I'm not going to explain it all the way right here

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Arrow
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 19:17
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You wanna know a good anti-pirate system? A good, loyal, and personal relationship with your consumers. By keeping an open and reliable line of communication to them you'll develope loyalty, no self-respecting die-hard fan will pirate a game from someone they feel loyal to.

Easiest way to do this is a decent website. Keep them up to speed by telling them about patches, how far the game is till completion, how certain part were done. A good forum helps too, it aloows the consumer to feel he/she's apart of the game. This Website is a good example, I've not heard of many trying to pirate DBPro because we loyal to the product.


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 19:50
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'A good, loyal, and personal relationship with your consumers. By keeping an open and reliable line of communication to them you'll develope loyalty, no self-respecting die-hard fan will pirate a game from someone they feel loyal to.'

I'm afriad Pro is indeed pirated-- the simple fact is that to stay alive you need sales, and not all of those sales are going to be to decent people. Spiderweb Software is a small software developer that makes excellent shareware CRPGs; they are a very open, friendly company with a loyal community, but nevertheless I stumbled upon two of their games being pirated not that long ago. (The happy ending to that story is that I reported the sites and they mysteriously disappeared within the week.)

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Yian
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 19:54
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Savage(www.s2games.com) uses a unique Cd key system...which is uncrackable(more info ask rob@igames.com)...that means there are no key generator out there for savage...and since it is multiplayer only,the only people who play it are those who play on cracked servers...but even those have shut down after little activity..so basically there are almost no illegal players on the savage servers right now.By the way,get the demo!

Jeriko The Slyz,Yian The Craft,The Mechanist,The Lost One,Master Of Dots,Bambos O Bellos,Zolos O Kolos
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The Game
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 21:48
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I wonder how long this new copy protection system will work...it's interesting atleast

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/applications/0,39020384,39117127,00.htm

I am the game and I want to play.
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the_winch
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 22:56
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Looks to me with the ever increasing ammount of people with high speed connections they are going to shoot themselves in the foot. People will play them like shareware games. Play until it stops working then download another game.

You have a load of people who are prepared to play pirate games and by gradually removing functionality you think it will make them walk to the shop and spend money insted of downloading a crack like they do with games that need a crack to run.
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adr
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 23:09
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I remember opening the manual to "Michael Jordan in Flight", a basketball game (nothing to do with aeroplanes)...

Quote: "Michael plays fair, so you should play fair too. Copying games costs development houses..."


Wow. Hardly fort knox.

Unfortunately, as one of the best lecturers at Newcastle University put it, if you make some digital copy protection, then I can digitally overcome it. That wasn't a challenge - he was just highlighting the futility. You can just about patch any executable file to skip over the CD check, cd key check, online verification or whatever method you can put in.

What annoys me is the people who bitch about piracy can usually (note, usually) afford it. The dude who writes milkshape probably gets by on his little goldmine and I'm sure the guys at TGC aren't going to go hungry soon However, Mircosoft will complain that piracy is costing them millions. The MS developers will still get paid, rest assured. It just probably means one less mansion for Bill.

oh my, is that a tear?

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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 23:15 Edited at: 29th Oct 2003 23:20
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Quote: "I can't agree that CD-Keys are pointless. Diablo II used a good CD-key system, and it is one of the few popular games that you will not find floating around shadier file-sharing systems."


You just need to look harder ...

Quote: "which is uncrackable"


Nothing is uncrackable. There is ALWAYS a way round a protection system. It may be hard to find, but where there is a collective will of crackers, there is a way.

Quote: " It just probably means one less mansion for Bill."


It really annoys me when people use the "they can afford it" excuse. Just because the software sells well doesn't mean that you shouldn't pay them. And no, they CANNOT afford it if everyone does it.


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Rob K
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 23:26 Edited at: 29th Oct 2003 23:27
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Quote: "I wonder how long this new copy protection system will work...it's interesting atleast"


FADE is a nice idea, but it is based on the industry standard, and rather naff MacroVision SafeDISC v3. It was broken in about 5 minutes. SafeDisc digital protection is pretty weak. Generally SD cracks are released within a couple of days of pirates obtaining the disc. A Plextor Premium drive will make very short work of such a disc and can burn a perfect copy.


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Ian T
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 23:39
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'You just need to look harder ...'

True, but the fact is that piracy of the game was seriously crippled by their antipiracy methods.

'Nothing is uncrackable.'

I meant 'virtually uncrackable', sorry . But adr's proved me wrong anyways

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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HZence
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Posted: 29th Oct 2003 23:47
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My idea, which I would like to use whenever I get into the industry professionally, is to tell my customers straight out:

"This company works on the honors system. Yes, you can (and some of you probably will) make pirated copies of our games and distribute them illegally, but that's your loss. Don't look at this on a company-to-individual basis. You know what makes up companies? Individuals. Individuals like you. Whether you get caught or not ultimately really doesn't matter, it's whether you have any respect: for yourself, or us for that matter."

That doesn't mean we won't take anti-piracy measures, but the idea of the honors system will undoubtedly make people think twice, because then instead of it being like a game to them (cracking the software), it'll actually seem like a crime. Afterall, we're telling them "we trust you until you give us a reason not to trust you".

Personally I like the idea.

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 00:00
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The honor system is the oldest anti-piracy system ever, and, sadly, the least effective. It's surprising how many people won't bat an eyelash at a 'thank you for buying and supporting our company' screen when they've actually pirated it.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 00:07
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I think a good way to go about it might be to provide a key in the box which allows you to register an account on the product website, which is needed to play multiplayer, download updates and access lots of exclusive content.


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HZence
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 00:22
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Well Rob, you're at the stage where you could actually make that happen. And mouse, I think the honors system could potentially be a great system if used correctly.

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TKF15H
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 01:03
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One of the Tomb-Raider series had an interesting way of protecting itself against piracy: Even with the full installation, the level files were still on the CD. Normally, only the music doesn't get copied. All crackers need to do in such an ocasion is search for the ASM code that detects the CD and loads the music, and then he elimitates it. A cracker can't do that with a level file. Sure, this method of protection isn't 100% safe. No-CD patches were out for download, that instead of looking in the CD for the levels, it'd look in the hard disk. So, if we were to try to make our games harder to crack, we could put (for example) the main EXE in the sound track of a CD (that way it won't be visible from the explorer). When we were to actually play the game, it runs an exe that loads the real game from the CD. Is this possible in DBPro? I never tried, it's just an idea that popped out of no where...

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 01:40
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'And mouse, I think the honors system could potentially be a great system if used correctly.'

It has been used correctly before, but the simple fact is, you cannot discriminate between good eggs and bad eggs with your sales (can't and won't in most cases), and all it takes is one person cracking and distributing the file for the honor system to be bypassed- chances are the other people who illegally grab the file won't even see your message.

'Also even on an legitimate original games some people download no cd cracks just to remove this annoyance!'

Yup. And there are indeed safedisc cracks out within about a day of a game's release if you look in the right places.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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mog_squad
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 01:50
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Yeah, piracy makes me angry. Put the Music Industry is realy getting out of hand, sueing teens for just having the files on their computer for large sums of cash.

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ESC_
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 01:54 Edited at: 30th Oct 2003 01:56
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Don't copy that floppy!
http://www.xboxmaniak.com/video/video2.php?nbr=93

Edit: Nevermind, looks like that link is down

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 11:38
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The very nature of computing dictates that no matter what method someone comes up with, it can always be circumvented. The sheer fact that the data is executing on your computer, the processor is sat there doing it's thing - this alone means you can always crack anything. Personally the only real way I can see of something working would be on a media level. Nintendo have it right with the GameCube - try copying one of those in a Plextor but this just isn't possible on the PC. If someone did release a new type of drive, another firm would just release a copier for it. It's a vicious circle but I think it's an accepted one, software houses factor it into their production costs.

Cheers,

Rich

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 12:32
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Agreed - the GameCube is the only system I know to effectively resist piracy thus far. There is a broadband adapter hack but it would only work with very small games and is quite hard to do.


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GameKit
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 16:48
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Wow…My post received a lot of replies…Thank you everyone for your ideas, theories, and posts. I learned a lot just by reading through them. So far, I think the ideas that were expressed were; “make the full game a separate download from the trial which is only accessible after purchasing the product�, “A good, loyal, and personal relationship with your consumers�, �A decent website.�, �a unique CD key system�, “provide a key in the box which allows you to register an account on the product website�, �we could put (for example) the main EXE in the sound track of a CD (that way it won't be visible from the explorer)�, �I can see of something working would be on a media level�. But one thing that was emphasized was the fact that there is ALWAYS a way around any method. I agree that there is a way around everything, but at least some methods will slow the pirates down. Once again, thank you for all the replies.

If It Wern't For Bad Apples, Good Apples Would Only Be Average...
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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 17:36
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What exactly is the GameCube's antipiracy system?

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 17:47 Edited at: 30th Oct 2003 17:47
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- Special Media
>> Non standard physical size (half DVD size)
>> Anti-piracy barcode
>> Non standard data format (similar to DVD)
>> Written from outside to center
>> Heavily encrypted

- Nonstandard Components
>> Hard to reverse engineer & bypass


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lagmaster
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 18:18
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you do realise gamecube games are on the internet?

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the_winch
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 18:36
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Just hope nintendo didn't make the same stupid mistake sega did with the dreamcast. Getting the data off the disks is allways going to be poaaible but getting the machine to read and play games written on standard media might not.
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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 18:39
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I think they've already made that mistake .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 18:39 Edited at: 30th Oct 2003 18:41
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Quote: "you do realise gamecube games are on the internet?"


There is no way of playing them though.

You cannot get pirated GC discs either.


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HZence
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 23:11
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If they're pirated, how would you know...

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 23:14
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... because they would be available at my local computer fair like pirated XBOX / PS2 games and by friend in Bangladesh would see them as well.


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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 23:15
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Nothing suspect with knowing what the underground scene is like as far as I'm concerned. If you're a developer, it's very helpful to know anyways.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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HZence
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Posted: 30th Oct 2003 23:16
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Could be Rob, but that doesn't HAVE to be the case, unless your local computer fair is internationally notorious for pirated software...

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 31st Oct 2003 11:15
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FAST cracks down on most of them - along with car boot sales.


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