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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK running on lower android versions?

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kamac
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Posted: 30th Jan 2012 16:01
Hey,

Are there any possibilities of running AppGameKit product on android device with version lower than 2.3? ( Or you possibly used NativeActivity which limits that? )

Maybe by changing something in <possible> .apk's files?

http://www.kamacdev.wordpress.com ~ My developer blog, mind paying a visit ?
LeeBamber
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Posted: 1st Feb 2012 22:01
It's not possible to run lower than 2.3 as 2.3 was the first OS to allow full C++ coding of native binaries. Before that it was Dalvik which is a variant of Java. We are working on a Java version of AppGameKit for browsers, so there might be a possible slight of hand which would allow us to support Dalvik later in 2012 but it's a question of whether the community want us working on the lower end Android devices or working on HTML5/WP7 and other new and current devices. The market share for 2.2 and earlier devices is dwindling rapidly, and it may make more sense working on the strong and up and coming platforms.

I drink tea, and in my spare time I write software.
Greenster
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 06:13 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2012 06:17
Support for Dalvik would mean support for at least 2 million more devices, since Android SDK converts J2ME *.class binaries. Actually to put it another way, going with J2ME->Dalvik would make AppGameKit builds run on pretty much every mobile device manufactured over the past decade, even prepaid handhelds, except they don't have MIDP 2.0+ for sockets.

All MIDP profiles have 2D hardware acceleration(through DSP or GPU), MIDP 2.0 has full socket functionality plus database connections.

Also to produce an applet or application for any PC platform, you only really need to change some class names.

EDIT: I get the feeling this isn't going to happen though.. AppGameKit is supporting J2ME based SDKs instead that even the vendors were smart enough to abandon..
bjadams
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2012 10:41
Why spend precious time working on lower end Androids when 4.0 is coming out?
Greenster
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 14:58
Quote: "Why spend precious time working on lower end Androids when 4.0 is coming out?"


Because 4.0 doesn't run on devices less than 2 years old?
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 15:16
Personally I would vote for investing time on HTML & Win7phone versions of AppGameKit rather than supporting OSes that will become redundant by end of 2012
Alain91
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 20:35
I vote for html5 too!

Flash like apps would be really great if execution speed is correct..
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 20:38
Forget Flash, it's on the way out. HTML5 is the future
kamac
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2012 20:44
Quote: "HTML5 is the future"


http://www.kamacdev.wordpress.com ~ My developer blog, mind paying a visit ?
DMXtra
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Posted: 5th Feb 2012 03:51
Wasting any effort on Android 2.2 or lower in my opinion is a huge waste of time. Most people who have Android have it on a phone and not on a tablet that means that they should be upgrading soonish and we know phones don't last forever.

So, no I don't think its wise to support an older version of android that will be obsolete in a year or two and focus on stuff that is going to last. HTML 5 and Windows 8 and Windows phone 8 and Java + OpenGL or OpenGL ES 2.0 makes a lot more sense than android 2.2 (or lower) and Flash.

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.
bjadams
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Posted: 5th Feb 2012 09:46
Even doing Java + OpenGL and then doing HTML5 after 6 months is a waste of time in my opinion!

There are already many good HTML5 + WebGL toolkits available NOW with powerful features, so it's very doable.
Greenster
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Posted: 5th Feb 2012 10:57 Edited at: 5th Feb 2012 11:06
some things people here don't seem to know:

1. android 2.2/2.3 is still maintained and used on retail new low-spec devices. These devices actually don't run newer android images because hardware prerequisites.. 2.2/2.3 SDKs cross-build in Eclipse

2. J2ME is on literally every device except apple IOS dating back to the late 90s, and is still being updated and used on all devices including android all the way up to the latest version. This is just cellphones too, I can go on to mention Win/OSX/Linux/BSD and pretty much every other embedded market too, even industrial.

3. HTML5 is only on select devices made after mid 2010..

In 2013 when HTML5 is predicted to be on 1 billion devices it'll still be dwarfed by J2ME, and J2ME will still be on all those devices maintaining dominance. J2ME actually predates smartphones, and has a impressive track-record in security and stability compared to DOM engines like HTML5 will run on.

If TGC is going to make AppGameKit only work on 2011+ expensive devices and windows, maybe they will end up lowering license cost do to the drastically smaller market?
JimHawkins
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Posted: 5th Feb 2012 11:15
Quote: "There are already many good HTML5 + WebGL toolkits available NOW with powerful features, so it's very doable."


WebGL is apparently a security disaster. Apple will not support it in iOS 5.

I think TGC would be wise to support a small variety of back-ends to cover the inevitable fact that there will never be 100% consistency on all platforms.

-- Jim
Greenster
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Posted: 5th Feb 2012 16:06
Quote: "WebGL is apparently a security disaster. Apple will not support it in iOS 5.

I think TGC would be wise to support a small variety of back-ends to cover the inevitable fact that there will never be 100% consistency on all platforms."


Yeah we wouldn't want to overshadow the kernel, daemon, and app vulnerabilities published for IOS every couple months with some graphics engine bugs..

I don't get what people have against Java.. I sent three five-eight year old J2ME JARs through the google converter and they all rendered and functioned identical on Android 2.2-4.0 to when I developed them back then and tested on some handsets. It's also managed code and builds easier than current AppGameKit pipelines under Eclipse..

Using Java would have same functionality as AppGameKit currently has on all non-IOS platforms, but in addition, on pretty much every device manufactured pre-dating the last decade, which if you know how marketing and support systems work, isn't likely to have any competition from HTML5 or anything else you care to mention in terms of portability and stability..
JimHawkins
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Posted: 6th Feb 2012 09:37
Quote: "Yeah we wouldn't want to overshadow the kernel, daemon, and app vulnerabilities published for IOS every couple months with some graphics engine bugs.."


It's not just "some bugs"... Check out this report:

http://www.contextis.com/research/blog/webgl2/

The final line of this extensive report is:

"Context therefore recommends that users and system administrators disable WebGL."

-- Jim
Greenster
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Posted: 6th Feb 2012 11:45
Quote: "It's not just "some bugs"... Check out this report:

http://www.contextis.com/research/blog/webgl2/

The final line of this extensive report is:

"Context therefore recommends that users and system administrators disable WebGL.""


I don't know anything about it, I was just pointing out the irony that IOS is full of vulnerabilities already, the last two jailbreak exploits are remotely exploitable kernel bugs.
DMXtra
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Posted: 6th Feb 2012 12:40
The main problems if I understand it (please correct my ignorance if I am wrong) with HTML5 + WebGL is:

1) WebGL is not secure (voted not secure not just by Microsoft but other companies as well)

2) Since I do believe webGL uses JavaScript and not Java the source is view-able which means that any source code you put out will be able to be grabbed.

3) WebGL is not going to be supported on IE9 or IE10 (which comes with Windows 8, so that is a big deal).

So, using Java + OpenGL or OpenGL ES 2.0 is the better way to go, you almost would get universal coverage there without a plugin.

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.
JimHawkins
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Posted: 6th Feb 2012 13:53
@Greenster: I really don't want my clients exposed to Denial Of Service attacks which can be traced to my program. Jailbreaking is a recipe for disaster. Let Apple sort out its security. That's their problem, not ours, surely.

@DMExtra: I agree. But these things are changing all the time. Anything could happen next year. TGC needs to be flexible and responsive - which they are are!

-- Jim
Greenster
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Posted: 6th Feb 2012 16:38
Okay I'll simplify things with strait questions:

1. Why would you need OpenGL? a library that restricts J2ME to specific hardware, adding nothing J2ME doesn't already have on all hardware(2D hardware acceleration even on discreet&legacy DSP)..

2. How is HTML5 better than J2ME? Years from now it still won't have a fraction of the market the still expanding J2ME will, and DOM engines are historically famous for very-frequent exploitable bugs, almost quarterly syntactical changes, and major cross-platform rendering issues in pretty much every factor of a DOM..

HTML5 is really kewl and all, but it runs on top of a DOM render engine, many actually.. If you know anything about render issues, specifically in CSS and computed geometry aspects, you know this will be a headache..
JimHawkins
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Posted: 7th Feb 2012 00:28
Are you quite sure that J2ME actually runs on iOS?

-- Jim
Greenster
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Posted: 7th Feb 2012 08:26 Edited at: 7th Feb 2012 08:31
Quote: "Are you quite sure that J2ME actually runs on iOS?"


Obviously not, I've pointed this out in this thread a few times. Also some other threads here.

J2ME covers Android 1.0-4.0, and pretty much every handset outside Apple for over the past decade.

HTML5 is just now getting close to 400 units total, and guess what, all those handsets besides Apple have J2ME. This is just the handset market too, J2ME goes outside the handset market and it all cross-compiles. PC/MAC all-os also compile and run J2ME with light class changes. JVM also has a good record of security and stability.
DMXtra
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Posted: 8th Feb 2012 11:48
I have a question, does J2ME have 3D hardware acceleration and has the same speeds and quality of graphics in 2D and 3D as OpenGL?

My point is that we need to keep things consistent, so far App Game Kit has been using OpenGL and if 3D is coming we need to make sure that we are prepared for that.

App Game Kit (A.G.K.) - Want to be creative on many platforms at once? This is the tool you need.
baxslash
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Posted: 8th Feb 2012 13:35
There is at least one 3D API for J2ME (probably quite a few): http://developers.sun.com/mobility/apis/articles/3dgraphics/

From what I've heard TGC have started with Java and OpenGL for their own reasons including the fact that it simply ran faster than HTML5. I don't know much about J2ME but I would guess from the way TGC are working on AppGameKit that other API's would definitely be considered. I'd be surprised if they haven't already looked at the options before settling on OpenGL (for their own reasons)...

Seems to me Greenster that you know your onions and could probably put forward a good case to TGC. Why not put a proposal together that they can evaluate and give you a proper response rather than get frustrated by people who either don't understand or disagree with you here?

Just trying to give you a constructive way of possibly getting what you want rather than the offchance someone from TGC reads this thread...

JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th Feb 2012 17:26 Edited at: 8th Feb 2012 17:28
And, of course, the 3D retained mode uses OpenGL ES.

Amusingly, the article linked above states that:

" the most widely adopted cross-platform graphics API, [is] full OpenGL."

-- Jim
bjadams
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Posted: 8th Feb 2012 22:22
The only problem I see is that Java does not run on iOS, whilst html5 & javascript work.
So releasing a webgame using AppGameKit Java would be as limiting as releasing a Flash game right now.

The only positive aspect i can see, is if Java can be turned into a FB game.
baxslash
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Posted: 8th Feb 2012 22:42
Quote: "The only problem I see is that Java does not run on iOS"

Isn't AppGameKit already running on iOS though...?

The point is that Java is another language in the "toolkit". That's what AppGameKit is. It's designed to be a "Basic" language to compile into bytecode that can then be used with interpreters for the other platforms. The SDK side for multiple languages is effectively a by-product of this design.

"Write once deploy everywhere" is not as easy in Tier 2 because if you wrote it in XCode (for example) you would have a serious job translating it whereas if you write in Basic you only have to edit the interpreters to suit your needs and you won't be using any uncompatible commands. When there are translators like the one @Lucas Tiridath started for C++ for ALL the native languages it will be even simpler.

It's not a new idea, .NET allows people to write in multiple languages (VB, C#, C++ etc.) and compile to a common format. AppGameKit is the same but almost in reverse (and a much more sensible direction IMO) in that it aims to get people programming in ONE language for ALL platforms.

This is an ideal that is common in many industries at the moment. Take the Industry Foundation Class (IFC) idea the construction industry is using for example!

I'm not saying Tier 2 is a bad way to program, just that Tier 2 users seem to see AppGameKit the wrong way around. AppGameKit "BASIC" is the language it was designed for.

fallen one
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 01:02
I'm confused here, is it write in agk basic and output as Java and OpenGL, or is it input as Java and OpenGL, and output in the formats agk supports?

Java and OpenGL is it input or output?


westalke
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 09:30
Indian launched is Akasha tablet last month with 1.4million pre-orders - they expect to sell maybe 5million units this year - all of these tablets will be 2.2 - its a market that's not going away any time soon.

I for one would love to see 2.2 support for this emerging market - as an aside - the greater percentage of android devices in that area are all 2.2.

For now our only option is to move to other less practical development tools to support that region - which kinda breaks the write once deliver anywhere paradigm.

Westa
Greenster
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 09:35 Edited at: 9th Feb 2012 09:43
Quote: "There is at least one 3D API for J2ME (probably quite a few): http://developers.sun.com/mobility/apis/articles/3dgraphics/

From what I've heard TGC have started with Java and OpenGL for their own reasons including the fact that it simply ran faster than HTML5. I don't know much about J2ME but I would guess from the way TGC are working on AppGameKit that other API's would definitely be considered. I'd be surprised if they haven't already looked at the options before settling on OpenGL (for their own reasons)...

Seems to me Greenster that you know your onions and could probably put forward a good case to TGC. Why not put a proposal together that they can evaluate and give you a proper response rather than get frustrated by people who either don't understand or disagree with you here?

Just trying to give you a constructive way of possibly getting what you want rather than the offchance someone from TGC reads this thread..."


I do it professionally, and in any given week I don't know which language I'll be using..

I actually changed my mind. I want HTML5 or OpenGL ES so my creations will be running on 500(by the end of the year) devices instead of 3.5 million devices

BTW AppGameKit currently has zero 3D acceleration, which makes sense given this is a cross-platform kit where most platforms, even the latest ones, have no 3D acceleration(outside ES devices it pretty much doesn't exist..).. There is actually little support for it in ES as well(in terms of mesh loaders etc..).. The intelligent thing to do is port their DX interfaces from DBP for a PC or 3D function set and later roll out ES 3D..

Whatever they decided is probably already underway.. I'm just hoping we get decent HTTP networking, which also looks grim.. Cellphones are social devices, so it's mystifying why AppGameKit lacks functionality to communicate with social network or any other(all based on HTTP with custom headers).
baxslash
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 10:04
Quote: "I do it professionally, and in any given week I don't know which language I'll be using.."

I am also a professional programmer and use several different languages on a day to day basis but I can still see the advantage of writing in one language and using the others only to edit when necessary.

This is orthogonal programming in it's simplest form! All you need to do is:
1-Write the game once in one language, this creates one game binary that can be used across all of the supported platforms
2-Edit the interpreters when necessary. The interpreters have a simple job, they read the game binary and make it work on their intended platform

The two parts of the system have a clearly defined purpose and can be indipendently adapted to suit specific requirements.

If you are writing the original game in another language you are inheriting its quirks and making life harder for yourself.

I know that in the real world you have languages and other requirements imposed on you by your client but what AppGameKit is aiming towards is the option to create the game your own way (in basic) and then adjust it as necessary to suit specific requirements (in the interpreter). It's not really a long way from that already. The part that's missing is when there is a specific requirement that the AppGameKit command set does not cater for. That's when you would need to translate into native code and compile using the SDK, but you would still be ahead because you would already know that your game works.

The basic version of AppGameKit is incredibly quick for rapid prototyping game mechanics and ideas too. I wrote an early version of a game (for a paying client) in about 2-3 hours and had it back on their desk for an early review just yesterday. They couldn't believe how quickly I turned their idea into a working demo so fast, and they are experienced game designers.

That's the potential of AppGameKit in a real world scenario.

I assume you're joking about DX

JimHawkins
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 10:51 Edited at: 9th Feb 2012 11:36
We're back in the days (which many of you will be too young to remember) when a new computer came out every six months, and we had Apple, Commodore, Atari, Acorn, IBM, Sinclair, Amstrad etc. They were all totally incompatible.

One of the first attempts to provide a unified programming approach was UCSD Pascal, which compiled to P-code, a byte-code format. That way only a small byte-code compiler/interpreter was needed for a specific platform. That's pretty much the AppGameKit Basic approach, and it makes a lot of sense.

I can't see there being one single back-end approach for a long time, if ever. There doesn't seem to me to be any point in getting "religious" over it. AppGameKit is always going to be an evolving system. The key point for TGC is to make is as flexible as possible.

Personally, I would strongly prefer TGC to use GNU C++ rather than Visual Studio.

-- Jim
Greenster
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 10:58 Edited at: 9th Feb 2012 11:12
The topic is derailing, so let me keep it on track: AppGameKit means fast turn-around times for small to large companies, it's the difference between life and death of an idea for indies.

There exist other platforms like AppGameKit, but all are time-consuming and poorly documented wrappers, except for one BASIC which is limited to Midlet functionality..

Regarding DX in AppGameKit for a PC 3D function-set: The only better idea is writing an engine from scratch that works across Java and J2ME and uses GL ES and GL with engine checks for 3D functionality. The DBP engine could be ported for the PC part though inside a couple months apposed to ~6+ months for the GL based solution.

In reality, if TGC focused on 3D at this point it'd be bad. Barely any updates and a gaping lead in the market for other vendors and start-ups.. Also how many 3D games do you see in these markets currently? Even better: How many finished 3D games have you seen from TGC products since the company was created? It's kind of obvious 3D should be lower priority to portability and stability..
bjadams
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 11:11
Baxslash, I bought AppGameKit because T2 was advertised as a major feature. If it had been BASIC and bytecode only, I for one would not be interested.

The 2 test projects I started with AppGameKit compile natively on windows, iOS and Android with no changes necessary. I am just waiting for the functions promised in 107 to actually release something with AGK.

Right now I have no hurry for HTML5, as I am using another toolkit which has all the functions I need. But it would be nice to eventually be able to export my AppGameKit project to HTML5 without having to redo it in another toolkit.
baxslash
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 11:15
The topic has been skirted quite a bit here. I'm partly to blame for that so sorry kamac!

Quote: "AGK running on lower android versions?"

Is there any reason that Java and OpenGL won't run on lower android versions?

Quote: "The OpenGL ES 1.0 and 1.1 API specifications have been supported since Android 1.0. Beginning with Android 2.2 (API Level 8), the framework supports the OpenGL ES 2.0 API specification."

It seems not!

Conclusion:
TGC have begun implementing an interpreter in a language that supports lower android versions!

Bonus:
It will also run on many other platforms including PC and supports 3D, yay!

That's all good right?

bjadams
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 11:22
Greenster, I agree, at this point AppGameKit has to become a solid 2D language, with regular updates, to compete with other sdks. Then in a near future, when the userbase has grown, they can do 3d
Greenster
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 11:24 Edited at: 9th Feb 2012 11:25
Quote: "Baxslash, I bought AppGameKit because T2 was advertised as a major feature. If it had been BASIC and bytecode only, I for one would not be interested.

The 2 test projects I started with AppGameKit compile natively on windows, iOS and Android with no changes necessary. I am just waiting for the functions promised in 107 to actually release something with AGK.

Right now I have no hurry for HTML5, as I am using another toolkit which has all the functions I need. But it would be nice to eventually be able to export my AppGameKit project to HTML5 without having to redo it in another toolkit. "


Tier 2 flexibility is still there with J2ME and xcode based AGK. The only reasons I can think of why people would need it is because they need extra functionality. There are also vaporwear authors who won't code in anything beside low level self-managed code, cause someone else who has never finished a project in their life said only uncool people do stuff in managed code..

I'm not going to protest this too much, most people are ignorant to the fact that even three years from now HTML5 capable devices will only be in the thousands, and all of them will still have J2ME which was in the millions before HTML5 was even invented and will still support todays code..
baxslash
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 11:32
Quote: "Baxslash, I bought AppGameKit because T2 was advertised as a major feature. If it had been BASIC and bytecode only, I for one would not be interested."

That's just my own view on what AppGameKit is aimed at. I don't work for TGC

Seems to me it's the way AppGameKit works best and a solid way forward, that's all.

Quote: "There are also vaporwear authors who won't code in anything beside low level self-managed code, cause someone else who has never finished a project in their life said only uncool people do stuff in managed code.."

Yes, very true. AppGameKit has to fight that image if the basic language will be taken seriously. I've only ever sold games (made in my spare time) using Basic and there are some great games out there bucking the trend "Evochron Mercenary" for example is doing really well and was written in DBPro...

Quote: "I'm not going to protest this too much, most people are ignorant to the fact that even three years from now HTML5 capable devices will only be in the thousands, and all of them will still have J2ME which was in the millions before HTML5 was even invented and will support old code.."

I certainly didn't realise quite how far ahead J2ME was! Thanks for the information. This thread has certainly taught me a few things

Greenster
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Posted: 9th Feb 2012 12:25 Edited at: 9th Feb 2012 12:33
Quote: "I certainly didn't realise quite how far ahead J2ME was! Thanks for the information. This thread has certainly taught me a few things"


I was actually wrong..it's way more

Quote: "3 billion mobile phones run Java

31 times more Java phones ship every year than Apple and Android combined"

http://www.java.com/en/about/

With those numbers, and if J2ME stopped being implemented today, it'd take HTML5 at least half a century to catch up..

That's just the phone market too.. Even $20 prepaid phones have it, just with lower MIDP. I can match aesthetics and functions of any iphone or android app on the market with J2ME and a phone with supporting hardware too, using more readable code since Java has classes for everything including BT, GPS, and accelerometers..

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