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FPSC Classic Product Chat / FPSC Needs Dark Occlusion

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Nomad Soul
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Joined: 9th Jan 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 10th Feb 2012 16:55
I just noticed this new DBPro performance application called Dark Occlusion

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=185588&b=8

What is Dark Occlusion?
Dark Occlusion is a real-time occlusion culling library for DarkBASIC Pro. It hides all the objects that aren't visible to the camera to speed up the render process, resulting in a higher framerate.

Features
Object/Limb occlusion
Auto-updated dynamic objects
Fast object setup
Auto-creation of low-poly bounding models
Multi-threaded for maximum use of multi-core pc's
Fast and unlimited levels of detail

We all know the portal culling system in FPSC is not great at the best of times and usually results in entire segments appearing and disappearing in front of your eyes without adding any performance benefit.

Dark Occlusion acutally looks like it does a really good job of this and could be the answer to those longterm FPSC performance issues. I think a mod or ideally the official update team should definately take a close look at this for v120.

uzi idiot
Valued Member
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Location: Who Knows?
Posted: 10th Feb 2012 16:58
I really do agree.
The current culling system is quite poor.

Mr. Flibble is Very cross!
Mental Stability is over-rated!
JRH
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Location: Stirling, UK
Posted: 10th Feb 2012 17:11
For whoever takes this up: Whilst your at it... throw in DarkCLOUDS.

Many thanks.

Flatlander
FPSC Tool Maker
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Posted: 10th Feb 2012 18:06
Ched80 is looking at it for RPGmod.

washburnrover
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Posted: 10th Feb 2012 20:01
great idea, I'm trying to make my own distance-based rendering (two methods: each model has many textures it's replaced with; or actually making a script that reduces texture quality, but may need to be made directly into the source)

I truly believe FPSC can only continue if it is made 100% compatible with DBPro Plugins/addons, as well as GDK, ESPECIALLY GDK, which would improve performance 10-fold, as well as make it easier to perfect it all around. (Red Eye is making an FPSC converter to C++ engine, check out "LightStorm" on the forums)

Here's my response to FPSC as of now...

That Big Idea guy that can't find the time...
TheDesertEagle
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Location: Canada - Who knows where else???
Posted: 10th Feb 2012 22:21 Edited at: 10th Feb 2012 22:22
If Ched can do it maybe one of us can do it and send it to SC so he can import it to 1.19 beta 8

Joey-May god have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.
Favourite Game-Call Of Duty MW2
Beno09
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Posted: 10th Feb 2012 22:35
We must believe in Ched and maybe some of us may help him. I hope that Dark Occlusion will be implemented in one of future betas of version 1.19.
Red Eye
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Posted: 10th Feb 2012 22:43
Quote: "The current culling system is quite poor."


On what did you base that? The portal culling system is pretty good. And ofcourse it has inbuilt frustrum culling.

Besides that the portal culling does pretty much all indoor stuff for what you wouldnt need Dark Occlusion for, there is no reason to add Dark Occlusion as long as the size of the grid won't be bigger in the next versions, because the only thing I can think of why you would use Dark Occlusion, are scenes where loads of complex dynamic objects are used, which is not achievable with the current grid size, (MaxP gave a great demo along with his plugin, and I believe that is the type of scene you would need to have to use Dark Occlusion effectively). People often forget that there is a range where the culling is effective. FPSCreator would just fit in Dark Imposters(grass, trees), but FPS Creator doesnt fit within the Dark Occlusion range. I am not saying that it is not good to add it, but if you do you would need to change so it is effectivelly enough as a culling system (thus changing the way levels are being edited, > editor).

Implementing culling in a game engine is a very delicate matter, you need to intensivelly test in which range it effectivally works best.

I am not giving any plugin priority, I think FPSC Modders and TGC should think about other things first. They should stop making the engine better and work on the editor and adjust the engine to the editor alongside.

Dark Occlusion is great btw, I recommend it to everyone! (just so people dont start yelling at me )

Cheers,

jmtmew
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Posted: 10th Feb 2012 22:52
Well couldn't it work the other way round?

What I mean is, if we added Dark Occlusion to FPSC, surely that'd mean we could safely expand the grid size?

Also, wouldn't there be a problem in implementing a system that's paid for, into a mod that is given away for free?

TheDesertEagle
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Posted: 10th Feb 2012 22:55
that would mean updating the map-editor

Joey-May god have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.
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Red Eye
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Posted: 10th Feb 2012 22:58 Edited at: 10th Feb 2012 23:10
Quote: "What I mean is, if we added Dark Occlusion to FPSC, surely that'd mean we could safely expand the grid size?"


Yup, you would then release an editor & engine update, but my point above is that you first want to check in what conditionis the plugin works best( the range where the culling is performing it's algoritme on it's relativally maximum speed ), and based on that you adjust the engine/editor.

Quote: "Also, wouldn't there be a problem in implementing a system that's paid for, into a mod that is given away for free?"


I don't know really, I believe a special dll of DarkLights was made to fit in the "open source" - idea. So same for Dark Oclussion can be made by MaxP if he wants.

EDIT: You could use Occlusion Culling to hide limbs of the static world data, dont know if Dark Occlusion supports that, but that is I believe a "scenario" where occlusion would be usefull for fpsc.

Cheers,

JRH
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Location: Stirling, UK
Posted: 11th Feb 2012 00:10
I agree with Red Eye, the portal culling built into DB Pro is sufficient for FPSC. I doubt that there would be a noticeable difference if Dark Occlusion was implemented.

If FPSC used large numbers of dynamic objects, rather than the one large static universe then occlusion culling would be useful, but since its not...

Still, DarkCLOUDS anyone?

jmtmew
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Posted: 11th Feb 2012 00:29
DarkCLOUDS would be great but I'm unsure what our chances are of getting it in FPSC. Still, it seems fairly do-able, but we'd need someone who can actually do that to do it, which may be a slight problem, as with Dark Occlusion, I doubt it's a simple copy and paste operation.

But DarkCLOUDS and Dark Occlusion? That'd be truly awesome

I think it'd be absolutely best if somehow (I know this is totally unreasonable and it'll never happen, just saying this hypothetically) all addons TGC produce for DB, could be implemented straight into FPSC

But if I'm totally honest, DarkCLOUDS isn't going to be much more helpful unless FPSC can handle outdoor environments properly first.

maho76
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Posted: 11th Feb 2012 00:33
the mainproblem the portal-culling, wich is helpfull in indoor, gives you see in outdoor levels that include indoor. whenever the system has to change indoor to outdoor or vice versa, the framedrop is very heavy and causes random laggs. thats what you can workaround with setting all segments to visoverlay=1 but causes other problems with breakthroughs and stuff. so classic culling is the mainreason you should avoid outdoor. when cullingsystem would be changeable you could do both, in & outdoor. but i understand that this would be a basic change and hard work to implement.

gz

Marc Steene
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Posted: 11th Feb 2012 05:58
DarkClouds looks very nice. I just watched the video on the plugin page and it turned a static, boring scene into a lively and interesting one. A bigger grid would be nice too.


Specs: Alienware M17x R3. i7-2630QM. 8GB RAM. Nvidia 560m. Momentus XT Hybrid Drive.
Teabone
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Posted: 11th Feb 2012 09:46
Anything to new will come with new bugs... more testing... more fixes.

Ched80
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Posted: 11th Feb 2012 13:18
This is an interesting debate. I'll let you all know how I get on with Dark Occlusion. I'm not expecting amazing results, but believe being able to cull static objects as well as dynamic limbs will offer some benefit.
There should be no problem with offering Dark Occlusion as part of RPGmod because you're only getting the compiled exe and not the extension pack for DBPro.
RPGmod already has Styx built into it and that isn't a free extension for DBPro.

jmtmew
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Posted: 11th Feb 2012 18:32
Quote: "RPGmod already has Styx built into it and that isn't a free extension for DBPro"

Fair point,

It will be interesting to see how it turns out.Is there any other features you've been working on for RPGmod?

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