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FPSC Classic Product Chat / my apologies to scene commander

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s4real
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2012 23:16 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2012 23:32
Hi all,

Many may be aware that I've not been happy with the latest version of fpsc and I have not hold back on the fact.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=191591&b=21&msg=2325561#m2325561

V1.19 has had some great new features added to it but the fact is for me FPSC is just not as stable like it used to be and pretty buggy.

I understand as a programmer its hard to please everyone but my comments where there to help scene commander more than just come across as being picky, I stick to what I've said and I do feel that v1.19 needs to go back to v1.18 and start again by just using the wasp mod source as wasp was awesome and still is.

Anyway I would like to apologies to scene commander if my comments have come across a bit harsh and have great respect in your work.

Every comment I say should be taken to help improve fpsc not as being picky.

best s4real


Pack ya games with vishnu packer its free. Vishnu game launcher is now released.
MrValentine
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2012 23:22
it may help if you also linked to the referenced thread post... just saying...

s4real
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2012 23:33
@MrValentine :- link posted

best s4real


Pack ya games with vishnu packer its free. Vishnu game launcher is now released.
bruce3371
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2012 23:34 Edited at: 22nd Mar 2012 23:49
Being a non-programmer, I don't get to see what goes on 'under the bonnet', so obviously I can't comment on the coding behind 1.19.

All I can say is that I'm really impressed with the amount of stuff that's been added to the new version. The WASP additions, IMO, are close enough to the original, that they can be implemented in pretty much the same way as they could in WASP itself.

The only stability problems I've encountered so far, have been down to using a dinosaur as my development PC.

I believe SC has said he'll be spending this week debugging the update, so hopefully, some of your concerns about the code will be addressed.

MrValentine
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 00:57
Quote: "@MrValentine :- link posted "




BlackFox
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 01:00 Edited at: 23rd Mar 2012 16:21
Quote: "Anyway I would like to apologies to scene commander if my comments have come across a bit harsh and have great respect in your work.

Every comment I say should be taken to help improve fpsc not as being picky."


And my apologies for calling s4real on the phone and telling him he was picky.

On second thought... after our conversation, I was right. You are too picky.


Twitter: @NFoxMedia
MrValentine
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 01:16
Quote: " A crate of tea Earl Grey on route for you."


Oh do send a batch over will you good man

TheDesertEagle
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 01:21
whats so buggy about 1.19?

Joey-May god have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't.
Favourite Game-Call Of Duty MW2
Flatlander
FPSC Tool Maker
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 01:50
Earl Grey? I'm inviting myself over. Have it ready. No sugar but I would like some milk. Oh, maybe a crumpet would be nice or biscuit. So, tea at 1600?

MrValentine
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 02:14
I shall help myself to some cheesecake and butter scones with whipped cream and jam, rasberry jam that is...

Northern
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 06:59
Hello everybody,

No offense but we not need of more bugs in the FPSC, because the existing ones are already more than enough, what we need is concrete improvements that make the FPSC a better product and not the inverse.

I appreciate the efforts of Scene Commander to try to make the FPSC a best product incorporating successful features of him mod to the FPSC. Anyhow, he should need a lot of qualified help to assist him in this great challenge. I do not know how many professional programmers of the TGC are helping Scene Commander at this moment in his work, but if he is working as a lone wolf, the chances of him being successful in a short time will be greatly reduced, in my opinion.

I wish to Scene Commander all luck in this big endeavor.

Cheers,

Northern
elbow
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 08:24
Hi all

As I understand from the Beta thread Scene Commander is not employed by TGC, so therefore I understand that he is working on this update without compensation. Should he be successful, the WHOLE community would profit from his hard work, time and sleepless nights.

As a community we should all stand up and say wow, thank you sc for taking "our" favourite game-making program to the next level. I have been following the beta thread and although most of the concepts discussed there are way above my understanding, I have not noticed much encouragement for SC - lots of requests, bug reports and helpful advice, but not many thank you's (and I stand guilty as charged).

Having said that, it is also necessary to test the program and we must also thank the beta testers like Flatlander, Errant AI, Maho76, s4real, Marc Steene and many others who take their time to test and refine the beta.

So, thank you all. Your work is appreciated and whatever you do, don't stop!

Eugene
michael x
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Posted: 23rd Mar 2012 15:17
I agree with s4real 119 is a mess but 118 is no better. there is something wrong with the game builder in 118. whats not a problem on the test run is a problem after you build the game. I wish Lee have just took over and fix all the bugs from 118 then maybe have these new commands later. bugs make it pointless to make a final game.

more than what meets the eye

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maho76
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Posted: 26th Mar 2012 10:53
as far as i see v119 has some minor bugs against the 118, but not major problems. there are some things in buildgame that have to be fixed (wich where also happen in 118 sometimes), and also some things on the new commands, but thats not a catastrophic result, especially that its still BETA (remember that ).

it gives you awesome new commands to make completely new games (especially when combined with rpg-mod), and it gives a performance boost on most machines.
most problems you think of i am sure that its the basic code of fpsc wich is a mess and not the new code by scene commander.

i am full of respect and wish him good luck on finishing this, even if it takes the next half year to get it done in a propper way, take your time, buddy. this is still a great job you are doing here... for us.

michael x
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Posted: 26th Mar 2012 18:47
the game builder is a major problem without it all you have is some level you can only play in the test run of fpsc.I think lee needs to take over and fix 118 game builder before this nightmare continues.115 and 116 is more stable before all of this. that means throw out all the features that was made.

there is no blame to scene commander for this nightmare this is all before him. but I fpsc can not continue at this rate with a new version like 120. the software is reaching its end slowly because of these bugs. before you know it fpsc is telling you that it reach the memory cap on the game builder but yet you was now where close on the test run. when it come to the game builder there is no work around that is final.

more than what meets the eye

Welcome to SciFi Summer
bruce3371
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Posted: 26th Mar 2012 19:00
Quote: "its still BETA"


This^^

Also, ever since I learnt to switch off the memory cap and image block mode, I've never had any problems with the memory cap (either during a test build, or a build proper); And that's using an old dinosaur of a PC...

maho76
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Posted: 26th Mar 2012 19:05 Edited at: 26th Mar 2012 19:09
@michael x:

most important before doing a final build is to load each single level into the editor and let it testbuild TWICE!!
v119 produces a very ram-intense version if you run fpsc-cleaner in between and delete all dbos, so you have to let fpsc rebuild it before starting finalbuild.
then you will have the same ramsize as in testbuild. also most common errors are deleted with this.

v119 is definitely NOT a nightmare or a mess, its... an fpsc beta like all the times before^^ i am not that long around here, but i remember same chickenrun starts before the final release of v118, wich is definitely a good and (more or less) propperly working version.

and again: its beta. most users see "v119" and think of it as it is the final version, wich rises at the horizont (i hope for SC^^), but is long not right in front of you.

michael x
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Posted: 26th Mar 2012 20:53
I have done all of that. I am not saying or using 119. this is about 118 and the reason why 119 may be a mess.scene commander can only fix but so many bugs. but trying to fix what is from 118 is going to be much harder. I an not having problems with the memory cap but what I mean is if these bugs continue in fpsc they may become something big like that in a new version. but it does not matter we will see how it all ends after the beta. much thanks to scene commander for doing 119.

more than what meets the eye

Welcome to SciFi Summer
michael x
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 00:07
I take it all back I find out what was the problem with the game build. it was the most dumbest thing. now everything looks the way it should.lol

more than what meets the eye

Welcome to SciFi Summer
Dar13
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 07:19
The FPSC source is a mess. I've poked around some before, even added some features for Scene Commander's original WASP mod. I've never found anything remotely resembling a main loop. I don't even know when the program actually starts, since there's subroutines scattered EVERYWHERE. It could really do with a slow-burn cleansing period of a half-year or so where FPSC is just reorganized to make sense. But I fear that will never happen except with Red Eye's C++ project to recreate FPSC. Which seems to have died...

Red Eye
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 08:58
@Dar13: No it hasn't, on the contrary, it's very much being developed. I will announce it when the beta is ready , because I got the feeling, that posting progress without alpha/beta makes people just not interested in reading (i think). Altough, there are some beta testers from the forum testing the latest alpha releases from the SVN.

Cheers,

Soviet176
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Posted: 27th Mar 2012 21:19 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 05:06
Dar13 is completely right. The source code is a complete mess. Half the time I don't even see how it works. The #1 problem with FPSC right now is that Lee keeps letting people put crap into the source code.

I paid for an engine product to be developed by paid, experienced programmers. Instead he has pretty much opened the engine to anyone who says they have some programming knowledge, excluding hockey-kid who has clearly shown he is capable of programming and getting stuff done right. I don’t even think he looks at the background or training any of these guys have. GUI-x9 for example. When was the last update done for that? That code is literally sitting around and collecting dust. The code segmenting is horrible, it’s not even readable. Like one of the first things my programming teacher told us was to keep out code clean and organized.

The code now looks like scrabble mixed with a frag grenade and maybe some c4, if there is any room for that.

Bottom line is some of us are using this engine to make a game and sell it; Lee hasn’t even spoken any new words on the matter. I don’t even think he is checking the code other than to add a thing or two to the SVN to make it look like he hasn’t dropped off the face of the earth. The source code needs to be nuked and re-done. Personally I have taken it on my own to use 1.18 and do my own coding. I refuse to even touch or look at 1.19.


michael x
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 08:25
I believe Lee is not going to work on fpsc that much anymore. its being left up to us to add more features to it.look at fpsc x10 Mystic-Mod has taken over that. I think he is busy with other programs like AGK.

more than what meets the eye

Welcome to SciFi Summer
BlackFox
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 19:33 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 20:24
Quote: "The #1 problem with FPSC right now is that Lee keeps letting people put crap into the source code.

I paid for an engine product to be developed by paid, experienced programmers. Instead he has pretty much opened the engine to anyone who says they have some programming knowledge, excluding hockey-kid who has clearly shown he is capable of programming and getting stuff done right. I don’t even think he looks at the background or training any of these guys have."


This gave me a good laugh. I know what Scene Commander's background is, and I also know Flatlander's background is with regards to programming. I would put my money on their skills far ahead of the other you mentioned any day.

I have an extensive background in programming and although I have a set way of coding, that does not make my methods any better than anyone else. The same is said for other programmers. I can understand and agree that the code does look messy or unorganized at first glance, but that could be just according to our/your standards. Every programmer has their own methods to doing things that may be different. I can relate to you staying in v1.18--> we are still in v1.17. I have been working on our source organizing it and getting it to an easier state that even my wife can look at and know what is what. We then add what we want from v1.18 and v1.19 at our leisure and code it in our own method. Besides, it is not like the source can't be reorganized to your liking- it is just having the time to do so.

It's your attitude you are displaying regarding all except your buddy that really needs some polish. To openly make a statement that only your buddy is capable and the others are not helping is an insult to not only Lee, but to those actually involved. Have a little patience and see where it goes instead of drawing lines in the sand and causing issues within the community.


Twitter: @NFoxMedia
Sting
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 20:34
I have to second BlackFox and not only that everyone is entitled to an opinion however the way you come across in your post is quite disrespectful in anyones eyes.

So what if 1.19 ends up a failure? It can always be confiscated and everyone set back to 1.18 and start again on 1.19.

SC hasn't even finished with 1.19 yet, he maybe the kind of coder that wants to test things first then go back and comment, all us coders are guilty of that in at least one project big or small.

I am waiting to see the end result and don't really care for the 'in-between' because at the end of the day it's just a 'BETA'

// EOF
Soviet176
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 21:52
@Blackfox,

I can agree with some of your statements. Not sure if I took this wrong, but hockeykid is not my "buddy". There are other programmers on this forum, me includes like you mentioned. I do not know SC, I do not know his skills set. What I do know is I paid for a product that is being sold by a company who, correct me if I am wrong specializes in game development applications. Where as, FPSC before hand was usable (disregarding 1.16 which also was a complete failure) that we had to revert, which took time and for some of us money. I like some other people pay for some of the guys working with them. This is a set back as it hinders development time and money towards the game.

I was happy when 1.19 was announced. I didn’t at the time care that flatlander or SC was working on it. Until I popped the new source code open and nearly tore my hair out. Not just me, the other programmers here as well. It took so long to integrate our code with the complete mess before us. Not to mention the serious problems generated from 1.19 and even still to this day has. Now obviously I understand it’s a beta. Who wouldn’t right? I would not have a problem with structured organized code that simply didn’t work. Easy fix, I can find the code and fix it my self. Now it’s a needle in a hay stack.

Now, when TGC decided to hire Hockeykid and Knxrb I knew something was going to go wrong. Like in the FPSCIP thread, I posted a nice long (With evidence) post about why you should avoid FPSCIP and my opinions were my opinions and the facts were facts. I was a disappointed customer. It’s been over a year and several months since that application was updated. Half the features don’t work blah blah blah. Back to FPSC, now we get this really nice shiny post from Lee “You may be able to make menus!” wow that’s really cool but I understood the maybe part. Knxrb tells everyone about the GUI-x9 program and what it can do. Oh wow! That’s so cool menus. Never mentioned the fact that you had to pay for a pro version, similar to all the crap he had tried to sell off in FPSCIP, which took me literally 5 minutes to build myself using a High-level language. Not visual basic. I already paid for the engine, now I have to pay for upgrades to get a pre-written menu example?

I was actually able to read Hockey kids code. And when I requested help from him on AI, I got it. Not to make this sound like a flame post, trust me, that’s not what this if for. This is my opinion as a customer of the FPSC software.

Lastly, I do not believe that only Hockey kid is the only one who can work on the engine. I think lee is very capable of it. I would rather wait for him to update the code himself, because after all he is the creator than to dive in the current mess much like it was with 1.16.

So no, I am not happy, and neither are a lot of people. Now, I do trust the foxes. If lee woke up one day and said the foxes can work on the engine. I would most likely be fine with it. Your both great community members, you participate, free media, really nice model packs etc etc. However, if your code was sloppy, and the errors you made were simple and just plain sloppy I would obviously be mad at you. I agree very much with you when you say the code can be re-organized. Again however its time and money. So what do I do about it? Exactly like I said before, I will just continue on with working on older code.


BlackFox
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 22:20 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 22:22
@ Soviet176,

By reading your first post, you made it sound like he (hockeykid) was the solution to all the issues, whereas any others involved were hindering the development. If my referral comment offended you, then I was out of line and I apologize. I make no pretense that I like hockeykid's work, but I do know Scene Commander and Flatlander long enough to know and trust their work. My point here is that although there are issues, I am confident that it can/will get resolved without having to publicly make comments on who has the better ability than who.

We too have been working in an older version (v1.17 to be exact) and created our own "source" that we work with, adding what we need/want for a particular development. There are some features I wish I could add to our source, but either a few errors come up or it is time consuming. Plus the fact we have 6 developments in the current version going that switching is just not possible for us. We did not want the GUI-X9 in our source, so that was why we chose to remain in v1.17. I have a few camera commands from v1.19 (thanks to Scene Commander for his time in taking my phone call to help us out when I made a mistake), as well as other features from v1.18, v1.19, and our own ideas.

I can certainly identify with your frustration. Believe me, we know what it is like to have a development ready to deploy and have issues. Only to compound the fact you spend time sifting through the source code trying to isolate or find the particular issue. You are right with the "needle in the haystack" analogy. But again I reiterate that every programmer has a method to their work and sometimes the "neat and tidy" gets lost by the wayside. I know that by us taking time to organize, it has helped us to add new code with ease, much easier than the original source. Perhaps one day, if time allows, it can be considered down the road to organize the source for public usage.


Twitter: @NFoxMedia
Soviet176
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 22:27
@Blackfox

I don't think the foxes are capable of offending. You guys have been too good to the community. I apologize if I came off trying to start a flame war.

Like you mentioned, it's frustrating. I suppose we will wait and see what comes of it all in the end.


BlackFox
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 22:43 Edited at: 28th Mar 2012 22:44
Quote: "I apologize if I came off trying to start a flame war.

Like you mentioned, it's frustrating. I suppose we will wait and see what comes of it all in the end."


You did not start a flame war- you are frustrated like others that have been there. It's called being human.

Allow me to use this analogy. There have been other things that have been developed, only to suddenly stop and users having to purchase something different or purchase an "upgrade" at a discount. The support for the original product was not as expected, or to put it bluntly sucked. Instead of openly venting frustrations, we decided to take the source and start with our own. Solved all our problems once we did- if something goes wrong, I know it is our code and we need to find it. We no longer have to rely on low to non-existent support. However, we did pay for a product, so should we come and voice our displeasure in the forum? We could have, but then where would that lead to? The fact is, it happens from time to time in this industry, and sometimes all you can do is take a breath and solve the issue yourself.

Quote: "I don't think the foxes are capable of offending. You guys have been too good to the community."


Oh, both Mrs Fox and I are capable, and probably have offended some people over the course of being here. But we don't paint a pretend face for anything or anyone. We will tell it how we see it. If we offend, it usually is not our intend and we do make the attempt to apologize.


Twitter: @NFoxMedia
Dar13
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Posted: 30th Mar 2012 07:29
@Red Eye: Sweet! Looking forward to seeing what you've done so far.

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