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AppGameKit Classic Chat / is AGK replacing dbpro/dark gdk in the future?

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T4r4ntul4
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 15:17
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maybe it is ask before, but i couldnt find it.

is AppGameKit replacing dbpro/dark gdk in the future? because AppGameKit is getting 3D commands in the future, and many other things, and is compatible with mac, win, linux, and mobile platforms... and dbpro/dark dgdk isnt.

so what you guys think? is this a logical thought?
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baxslash
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 15:45
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It isn't likely to ever fully replace DBPro because it isn't designed to do the same thing. Not precisely anyway. Think of it more as a younger cousin

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T4r4ntul4
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 16:08
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ok maybe, but theres a windows export too. and its opengl. so why should one make a game with dbpro if he can the same with AppGameKit? for now its 2D. but in future 3D, the more reason by then to switch to AppGameKit imho.
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baxslash
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 16:22
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DBPro games can use third party dll's making what is possible far larger than AppGameKit which is designed to be supported on platforms that don't allow dll's at all. DBPro can make great Windows games but it doesn't work on many (if any?) other operating systems.

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bjadams
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 17:09
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Baxslash, with AppGameKit T2 you can can access dlls and integrate with other sdks in VS!
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baxslash
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 18:11
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The point is that AppGameKit is aimed to work on multiple platforms. DBPro and DGDK are aimed at pc's only and provide methods for that specific platform.

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kamac
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 19:20
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Though, if DBPro/DGDK would have been made using OpenGL, they could've worked on Mac & Linux. (Linux can yet emulate them)


But no, I don't think AppGameKit will ever replace those two. Also from the reason that it's expensive, while those two are (mostly) free.

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xCept
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 19:28
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DBPro is obviously far more mature than AppGameKit, but it is hard to say how the two will relate in the future as AppGameKit evolves to support 3D etc. I assume AppGameKit is the main product that TGC will focus on updating and improving in moving forward, much more-so than DBPro (as the current price of DBPro indicates).
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blueFire
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 19:59
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I think it would be depend upon how many people continue to use DBPro and how profitable DBPro (or products designed for DBPro) continue to be in the future. If 99% of all DBPro users switched to AppGameKit and TGC stopped making money on DBPro then it would be abandoned (or at least moved way down on the priority list) in favor of AGK. If DBPro continues to enjoy a strong following (including continuing to generate a good profit for TGC) then it would continue to be developed.

Jason
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MrValentine
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Posted: 25th Mar 2012 20:23
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Hmm I suppose our pipelines should if beginning from DBPro... look something like this... DBPRO...DGDK...C++...ETC...

or simply AppGameKit unless you intend to stick to Windows exclusively... but I suppose it would depend on just how capable AppGameKit becomes... of course I will have to wait for ADK 3D which obviously will incur extra cost pff... loving TGC for their affordability THANK YOU TGC!!! and so I suppose once I learn more about C++ and AppGameKit goes 3D... I will jump into the T2 aspect ignoring the T1 aspect alltogether... as I suspect my projects by that time to require external dependencies...

So I suppose the answer here is it depends on your target platforms... I hope DBPro remains in development for long times to come... eventually it can become open source and allow the amazingly talented community guys to help further it... [you know who you are] but with the recent release of DarkImposters... Dark Occlusions... and that other thing which I simply can not understand... I feel yhe life of DBPro was extended by at least another five years optimistically...

THANK YOU TGC AND FELLOW FORUM BRETHEREN¡¡¡

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Greenster
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 00:13
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DBpro is a pure DX9 engine..

It'd actually make sense to consolidate from all aspects..
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DVader
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 11:27
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They did work on a DX10 version of DB Pro (Apparently), but I don't think it will ever be released. So in one way I suppose this is TGC's new step, rather than rely on windows based DX10, which hasn't been the big thing everyone imagined.

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basjak
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Posted: 28th Mar 2012 13:04
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you can still use DX10 shaders in DBpro which will not make it different from DBpro if released with DX10.

it will be quite long before AppGameKit follows DBpro.
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DVader
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Posted: 29th Mar 2012 01:33
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Oh I agreee, it will take awhile before it has anywhere near as much functionality as DB. Perhaps, it was only DX10 shader support that was added, but I seem to remember reading in the newsletter, that Lee developed a new DX10 variant of DB Pro for the DX10 version of FPS creator.

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Greenster
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Posted: 1st Apr 2012 08:58
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Outside 3D and plugin stuff AppGameKit already surpasses DBP. That's even ignoring the fact it isn't just a dated windows engine that doesn't get updated anymore.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 1st Apr 2012 12:33 Edited at: 1st Apr 2012 12:34
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Greenster?

I can not tell you on how many levels your statements are incorrect...

EDIT

But to say it simply... SKYRIM is entirely DX9 Based...

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kamac
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Posted: 1st Apr 2012 12:39 Edited at: 1st Apr 2012 12:41
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Quote: "But to say it simply... SKYRIM is entirely DX9 Based..."


For PC & xBox On PS3 it's stripped-OpenGL ES.

AGK uses modified OpenGL ES.


There's no big difference between DX and OpenGL (In capabilities, rather than methods of programming using them)

Both can do amazing things.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 1st Apr 2012 12:40
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The xbox version which I saw someone play is dx based... dunno about ps... but cool ^^

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kamac
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Posted: 1st Apr 2012 12:42
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Quote: "The xbox version which I saw someone play is dx based... dunno about ps... but cool ^^"


Yup, I keep modifying my post after I post it actually.

I've just added xbox and then saw your post

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MrValentine
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Posted: 1st Apr 2012 12:43
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Hahahah no worries...

I want to add that many people misunderstand the DX libraries... they are called libraries for a reason lol...

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DVader
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Posted: 1st Apr 2012 17:12
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I think Greenster based his statement on the fact AppGameKit is considerably faster than DB. It doesn't have as many commands yet, but what it does do, it does fast. Plus, it has the advantage of running on multiple formats.
Oh, Skyrim is DX9 based as you say, but I wouldn't like to see how slow it would run if it were coded in DB. Well, actually I would love to see that! I'm sure some talented coder could get something fairly close to it

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bjadams
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Posted: 1st Apr 2012 19:36
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I would agree with Greenster that on 2D based commands, AppGameKit has almots already replaced DBpro. With v107 I think that if I would opt to do a small 2d project I would prefer to do it in AppGameKit rather than DB
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Greenster
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 02:48
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DBP runs on x86 windows computers..nothing else. Once 3D comes to AppGameKit managing DBP becomes senseless. I hold a license on DBP+plugins and would still rather see development consolidated.

Also I know how DX works over drivers, as well as how DBP builds PE/EXE binaries.
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basjak
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 07:01
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I don't mind a slow transfer from DBpro to AGK. actually, I don't see much difference between them. as I regard AppGameKit as another pluggin to DBpro.
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 12:02
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I've been using AppGameKit only, I stopped using DBPro. Then I needed to create a couple of programs - one to display auction bids, one to keep track of the bids as they came in. The two run on separate computers, but both needed to access the data on a network attached storage device. Since AppGameKit is currently limited (in Tier 1) to only writing to the "legal" folder, I fired up DBPro and got busy. Worked like a charm and only took two days to write.

I think both programs have their uses, and I hope DBPro doesn't get abandoned.
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basjak
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 20:23
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DBpro will not be abandoned.I got this comfirmation later last year by lee.

simple reminder to everyone is that windows tablets will be in the market later this year and expected to make a hit as experts preferred windows than others plus windows mobile, PCs, ultrabooks, netbooks. etc.... .

DBpro is very powerfull language that even you can create huge applications other than games with it.
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Greenster
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2012 23:00
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Quote: "DBpro will not be abandoned.I got this comfirmation later last year by lee.

simple reminder to everyone is that windows tablets will be in the market later this year and expected to make a hit as experts preferred windows than others plus windows mobile, PCs, ultrabooks, netbooks. etc.... .

DBpro is very powerfull language that even you can create huge applications other than games with it. "


DBP doesn't run on ARM devices.. It's Intel machine code with MSVC X86 DLLs packed into the EXE.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2012 04:03
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as far as I know those windows tablets are x86... although they had been trying to get them to run on ARM... but I have not read much into them since the ARM testing stuff... but I think the TEGRA 3 will be heavily involved... I hope >.<

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bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2012 09:47
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DPpro dos not support Metro Windows 8 style.
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Greenster
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2012 18:42 Edited at: 3rd Apr 2012 18:43
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Quote: "as far as I know those windows tablets are x86... although they had been trying to get them to run on ARM... but I have not read much into them since the ARM testing stuff... but I think the TEGRA 3 will be heavily involved... I hope >.<"


All ARM..

Quote: "DPpro dos not support Metro Windows 8 style. "


Doesn't even run on win7 sp1 without hacking things. Developers haven't updated it or given any feedback in over half a year. Studios have even dropped support for their DBP based stuff in some cases as a result.
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baxslash
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2012 18:58
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Quote: "Doesn't even run on win7 sp1 without hacking things."

Which part of DBPro doesn't work on W7 SP1? Works just fine for me using the latest version...

Quote: "Developers haven't updated it or given any feedback in over half a year."

This is completely untrue. TGC have assigned a developer to work on the top 20 bugs in DBPro:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&b=1&t=193289&p=4

Green Gandalf is prioritising these bugs on behalf of TGC and has been constantly giving feedback and acting as a go between for TGC.

Quote: "Studios have even dropped support for their DBP based stuff in some cases as a result."

I'm not surprised when people are falsely going around saying it's no longer supported or updated when it clearly is.

It may not be getting the driving force of the TGC team but that doesn't mean it's not being developed.

I like the fact that TGC keep developing new products for different needs but that doesn't mean their other products have been dropped, just prioritised. The same thing has been said multiple times on the FPSC board but that is also being updated now. The more people go around making false claims and naysaying DBPro the less people will use it and demand WILL drop making it a self fulfilling prophecy.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 3rd Apr 2012 21:53
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Quote: "Doesn't even run on win7 sp1 without hacking things"


That's strange. Runs fine on x64 W7 here!

-- Jim
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Greenster
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Posted: 4th Apr 2012 12:42
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Ahh I was going by the old 77 thread. Looking at this new one though it still looks like I'm not far off..

Studios did drop some support and probably don't follow where DBP development is being discussed on a weekly bases as well.

I'm not sure it's my fault people stopped following development either.. I rarely even come here except for recent days to check up on AGK.
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baxslash
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Posted: 4th Apr 2012 12:53
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Quote: "I'm not sure it's my fault people stopped following development either.. I rarely even come here except for recent days to check up on AGK."

All I'm saying is that the more people say something is dead the more people believe it. We are fickle and easily led... or misled

No offence intended

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bjadams
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Posted: 4th Apr 2012 13:53
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Did any dev studios really ever care about DBP as a development platform? I always thought of DBP as a tool for the hobbyist. But I have to thank DBP as through it I learned about the basics of 3d and then moved to DGDK and had to learn C++
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Mobiius
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Posted: 4th Apr 2012 14:05
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I'm sure the starwraith3d team cared. As did the driving test success team. And there just the first two I could think of.

My signature is NOT a moderator plaything! Stop changing it!
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 4th Apr 2012 18:38
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As Windows 8 has upgraded DX drivers (for Arm as well as x86/x64) and Visual Studio 11, just released in beta, supports compiling to Arm, I imagine that DBP will be able to keep up. Also, as W8 relies more extensively than ever before on DirectX it may be possible for DBP to produce some high-performance integrated apps that will not be easily made using OpenGL.

The problem with reaching for total cross-platform results in AppGameKit and other systems like Monkey is that there has to be a kind of lowest common denominator. Take for example video playback: not available in most compilers yet because of radical differences in the target engines. Audio: different requirements and performance.

I think DBP has a future, but its future may not look like its past!

-- Jim
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