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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / DBP - DirectX 10

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Mage
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 04:35
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What ever happened to the idea of a DirectX 10 version of DBP being released.

I remember there was talk about it right about when FPSCX10 was released several years ago.

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Todd Riggins
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 05:36 Edited at: 10th Apr 2012 05:37
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You mean this?

That's right ... That's right...

ExoDev.Com - A Game Development Tools Website! Featuring: XBOX360 CONTROLLER LIBRARY
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 05:56
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ME$ = "CRY"

FOR X = 1 TO Pi(3.14...)
PRINT ME$
NEXT X

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tiresius
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 07:23
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Quote: "What ever happened to the idea of a DirectX 10 version of DBP being released."

Same thing that happened to the Search field on the forums... nobody uses it.


A 3D marble platformer using Newton physics.
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Millenium7
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 07:36
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Quote: "Same thing that happened to the Search field on the forums... nobody uses it."


maybe it's me being crazy and unique but I tend to only search for things when I know they exist or I have a question relating to a specific topic. If I didn't know there was such a thing in the first place i'd never search for it. Ergo I appreciate this sort of thing being posted as now I know it exists! huzzah!

The problem with these forums is the lack of collation in the stickies. There's a wealth of information on here but it's all lost in the infinite void that is the search command. Ideally there'd be several stickies that contain links to all these sorts of things, in an easily laid out readable fashion
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mnemonic
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 10:50
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As far as I know the DirectX 10 API is far more different than DX9, so it will be a far hard, long, and complicated road to rewrite every library so if follows all DX10 pipelines.

But this is an intresting question, and I belive that TGC has it in mind aswell. I have nothing against DX9 since it is capable of ,,,eh,,,good stuff! Just as DX10 and 11.
My biggest concern thou, is microsoft. What will they do?. It feels like microsoft left an era with the release of Vista. XP will someday become outdated and so will DX9. I guess we all can make this prediction because of our experience that microsoft tend to completly abandon old stuff to, at the end, even make it inusable.
We are soon to see Windows 8, and I've already seen problems with TGC products and games made with them having runtime problems such as suddenly stop responding, crashing at random for no clear reason (There's always a reason) But what? I could use TGC products without these problems at all in WindowsXP. I'm running Windows7 64 now. I fear the liquidation of DX9, XP and older stuff already has begun, It's not official, but I shiver in fear!

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James H
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 11:08 Edited at: 10th Apr 2012 18:09
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Just goto fpscx10 home page and download the modders kit near bottom of page. In the download dbpx10 is there, no official support so unless you own fpscx10 there are no shaders to use and even if you do there are no examples, though its easy enough to get working

I am having issues with it in terms of transparencies and zdepth as you can see(answer must lie in shader file), havent tested plugins at all yet, but then Im still scratching my head as to a number of things so going back to x9 first

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 12:22
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Quote: "maybe it's me being crazy and unique but I tend to only search for things when I know they exist or I have a question relating to a specific topic"


When would you NOT search for a specific topic?

Quote: "I am having issues with it in terms of transparencies and zdepth as you can see(answer must lie in shader file),"


You might be able to improve matters that way but it looks like part of the problem is a render order issue.

[On topic] I dread the moment when the DX10 version of DBPro becomes mainstream - so much more to learn. And not to mention the flood of "When will DBPro be upgraded to DX11?" questions that will spawn. [/On topic]
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 13:24
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Well... I doubt DX9 will get ditched... anytime soon...
As there is far too much created in it... it would be financially irresponaible to make that decision... and keep in mind that it is in beta at present... as too was 7 and Vista and in beta I remember not much worked in 7 either...

Green Gandalf ~ if you did stand up comedy I will buy a ticket¡

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James H
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 13:28 Edited at: 17th Apr 2012 18:29
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Yeap I had given the render order some thought but the issue only appears to occur during transparencies and I did come across a link(cant seem to find it again now but pretty sure it was from XNA forum) that mentioned something similar with render order needing to be dealt with in x10 but it wasnt clear as to wether the issue was resolved in the shader file or not, however the reference was directed towards performance rather than zdepth issues - less work for pixel shader. So I will test in x9 the performance difference in a static scene with basic shader, hopefully later today and go from there, though it kinda makes some sense it might be done in shader file as x10 takes full control of geometry side of things though I do need to read up on what difference is between a geometry shader and a vertex shader(presumably tesselation but no real clarity from the odd page on sites Ive read so far)
from simple.fx;





Edit: wasnt XNa forum was from here;
http://www.gamedev.net/topic/548654-dx10-how-to-avoid-writing-transparent-pixels-to-depth-buffer/
Edit2: on closer inspection I must have remembered differently from the XNA site, looks like I need to combine render order with perhaps an alteration to the discard value in shader file

EDIT3; it seems you dont need to apply a shader to get object visual - seems I overlooked the fact that auto cam isnt on - creating a cube and applying a texture works fine, wether its using x10 internally is another question though...
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Millenium7
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 15:03
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Quote: " I dread the moment when the DX10 version of DBPro becomes mainstream - so much more to learn."


not really, I mean the entire purpose of DBPro as it stands is that it masks all this crap for us, we don't need to know, nor do we use the core DX9 commands. A polished DX10 version would be much the same, with everything simplified and automatic to the point where several hundred lines of code are condensed down to "set object render mode #,$" or "set directx level 10" and voila we have instant DX10 effects on an object
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James H
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 15:17
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Quote: ""set directx level 10" and voila we have instant DX10 effects on an object "

to get anything to render in x10 you need a shader ie sm4.0 and no shader models less than this as its syntax etc is a lot different to x9 - fixed function pipeline is not used only the programmable pipeline, you can use core command like make object sphere/cube but it wont be on your screen unless you apply a correct sm4 shader - I highly doubt an x10 release will provide a full assortment of shaders to deal with entire scenes but some examples, over time the forum community might provide them instead much in the same way x9 shaders have been provided by the forum community
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Millenium7
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 18:24
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Quote: " I highly doubt an x10 release will provide a full assortment of shaders to deal with entire scenes"


i'm super confused, why exactly is it absolutely necessary to have a shader? and why would they need to be different for each scene? and why would this still not allow any simple "make object" commands and behind the scenes the DBProX10 engine simply applies whatever shaders automatically to make it all work
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 18:28
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I hink DX10/11 are Hardware GPU based engines [as typically to use them ou need a good gpu, this goes for vista and 7 too otherwise you do not get the cute visual styling and get win98 visual themes...]

so as shaders invoke the GPU, I think this makes most sense as to why Shaders are required... but I could be half correct here...

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James H
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Posted: 10th Apr 2012 20:15 Edited at: 10th Apr 2012 20:18
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Quote: "why exactly is it absolutely necessary to have a shader?"

dx10 api has no support for fixed function pipeline, I have downloaded the modders kit and tried dbpx10, you make a cube and it is not visible to the screen until you apply the x10 shader, x9 shaders crash the program
programmable pipeline is shader specific, fixed function isnt

Quote: "why would they need to be different for each scene?"

if I want a scene with few objects 1 light 1 shadow and move some vertices I dont need to use every possible shader out there

Quote: "and why would this still not allow any simple "make object" commands and behind the scenes the DBProX10 engine simply applies whatever shaders automatically to make it all work"

possible yes to a degree, but thats a lot of work - if it wasnt then all dbpx9 code would be using shaders automatically but they don`t and arent provided except for those in the effect folder where there are just 6, the point of shaders is that they are programmable by you and not limited to the abilities of the fixed function which is what current dbp uses. The one provided from the modders kit is all we have to go on for now. Lets not forget the x11 support would be more work. I did say "I highly doubt" - to me thats a lot of work for them to do, they have other things on there plate to such as agk, I am saying "they" but I suspect it may well turn out to be just lee himself in terms of working on dbp, I dont know, I dont work for them, Im just using the info provided that I can find coupled with using current dbpx9 and x10 version as a template.
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Millenium7
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Posted: 11th Apr 2012 05:31
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and yet we have FPS creator X10 already released, and it doesn't require a gazillion lines of coding to get it up and running, and renders scenes perfectly as is. I think you are making this more complicated than it is. Sure it might be that way in C++ but as mentioned the entire purpose of the DBPro engine is to mask all the behind the scenes crap that we don't care about just to get some basic 3d on screen. FPS Creator X10 is proof of that concept already
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Mage
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Posted: 11th Apr 2012 10:55 Edited at: 11th Apr 2012 11:02
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Quote: "Just goto fpscx10 home page and download the modders kit near bottom of page. In the download dbpx10 is there, no official support so unless you own fpscx10 there are no shaders to use and even if you do there are no examples, though its easy enough to get working"


Didn't know that thanks.

Quote: "Quote: "What ever happened to the idea of a DirectX 10 version of DBP being released."
Same thing that happened to the Search field on the forums... nobody uses it."


I use the search tool all the time. Sometimes I'll post things that aren't really questions, but more discussion starters, so people can find them later. This time it was an actual question.

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James H
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Posted: 11th Apr 2012 12:44
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Quote: "and yet we have FPS creator X10 already released, and it doesn't require a gazillion lines of coding to get it up and running"

Have you even bothered to look at the code??? fpscx10 is written in dbpx10, if you dont think that was much code then your not looking at fpscx10 code at least research before you comment, or maybe we should look forward to a fpscx10 mod from you in future seeing as you appear to think its so easy

Quote: "I think you are making this more complicated than it is"

No, you are wanting it to be less complicated than it is, your not into to shaders then dbpx9 will suit your needs or even db classic. You want nice graphics you have to work for them - period - even in x9; go take a look at the code and fx files code in the advanced lighting system on evolveds page then come back and tell me its not complex.... why on earth do you think you dont have same shader functionality in dbpx9 as what you are wanting/suggesting/requesting for in a dbpx10 product ie commands with flags depicting what is inevitably a multitude of possibilities - which is why we have programmable shaders so that the code can be dealt with in hlsl and not the language of the app. It would require a lot of extra commands and fact is that will detract from the "basic" side of the language which I beleive GG highlights in his comment you quoted earlier.

Quote: "but as mentioned the entire purpose of the DBPro engine is to mask all the behind the scenes crap that we don't care about"

o really? Ive never seen such wording officially, care to explain your source? or perhaps even what the "p" stands for in DBP??

fpscx10 is limited, I challenge you to go away and come back with an open world scene with vehicles without altering any of the code or mods from users, nuff said.

I would expect a future release of dbpx10 to have some native commands much like in x9 that will allow for quick production of visible objects ie like in the Appearance command section but I dont expect a full shader system from them. I am intrigued as to what most think the differences are between x9 and x10, I see posts/threads for x10 non of which even have a mention of the differences or a mention of benefits versus performance loss from an x10 variant. All I see effectively boils down to "gimme what I want now" with very little thought of its uses

Quote: "FPS Creator X10 is proof of that concept already"

fpscx10 is not a basic language but the product of one and therefore not proof of that concept, however I think if thats what you want then your better to use fpscx10 for your needs or look for another engine rather than a language
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Millenium7
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Posted: 12th Apr 2012 07:20
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@JamesH

seriously /facepalm

I'm not talkign about using the current implementation of DBPro, i'm talking about if they release a brand spanking new engine called DBProX10. You would not be required to write all the code that is posted above, thus why it is not released officially!!!!

in our current implementation of DBPro, show me where we have to initialise the entire 3d engine before we can write "make object sphere" and have something displayed on the screen? WE DONT!
That's what they would be aiming for should they create DBProX10 and I cannot for the life of me imagine why it would be so much more complicated to do it, it's already complicated to get a DX9 engine off the ground from scratch, but we ARENT making it from scratch! this is the 'entire' purpose of DBPro! to remove all those days of coding just to get an object on screen, it's all handled in the background in code we do not access, we simply plug in our own code into the dbpro interface and voila, working 3d engine instantly

DX10 might rely on shaders to display anything, but that's still no excuse why we can't simply call a "make object sphere" and the engine will use the relevant premade shaders to make it happen, kinda like how FPS creator X10 already does. You don't have to manually recode everything if you want to get a simple cube running around, and then recode if you also want a sphere running around. Now if you want lighting or other such stuff that's gotta be manually implemented, kinda like what we already have. We already have to use user made shaders to do that, the inbuilt commands hardly qualify as lighting anyway. Same goes with shadows, HDR, bloom etc. But for the basics, it can be done by the engine automatically
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Mobiius
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Posted: 12th Apr 2012 12:57
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You can't compare FPSCx10 and DBProx10. Of course FPSCx10 can do it, it was written specifically to be able to do it. The code required to do it is a whole lot more complex than the FPSCx9 code. I suggest you download the x10 source and look for yourself just what's involved!

"here is a an expression to remember - He who has the gold makes the rules."
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James H
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Posted: 12th Apr 2012 16:57
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lol
Quote: "seriously /facepalm"

right back at ya,

just reread my post, was a little bit rude - sorry, I stand by what I said otherwise

I realise what you want, Im merely suggesting what youll get instead
Its a lot more work than you realise, they didnt do it for x9, cant see them doin for x10 or 11, but then I never said its set in concrete, I see whats been produced over the years by tgc and thats what we have to base our guesses on(which is what they are). Their products are awesome, I have bought a fair few and will happily buy dbpx10/11 as of when its released.

All that can be done really is to ask them directly yourself or go and play around with what they have already provided, for my part Im more than happy to just get stuck in
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GreenDixy
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Posted: 13th Apr 2012 00:28
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But should they not fix the products that are already out, And buggy before they release another application. I would love x10 but would love to see the others fixed first.

x9 has a thread for bugs etc but lee and them are more into the game kit then anything else. look at fpsc if it was not for scene commander we would have no updates for a long time "no offence lee" I have spent alot of money here only to be disapointed.

Fpsc - They are working on the source but that only helps so far they need to fix the engine its self ... crash

Dbp - look at the bugs on the dbp forum enough said

There is also physics but i know that has to do with a seprate party.


Sorry for any spelling mistakes way to tired to try

======================================
My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
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The Weeping Corpse
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Posted: 13th Apr 2012 01:11
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dx10 (and 11) is like opengl3.1 in that the fixed function pipeline no longer exists. a basic vertex shader combined with a pixel shader is REQUIRED to display anything, even the simplest of geometry MUST have a shader, but its nothing to be scared of, the basic shaders are very simple to understand.

pseudo vertex shader(in xyz)
{
out = transform in
}

pseudo pixel shader(in rgb)
{
out = in
}

in other words, the concept of a camera is removed from the dx api and the programmer is given full control.

this article talks about opengl but the concept is the same for dx10

http://www.jeffwofford.com/?p=698
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WLGfx
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Posted: 13th Apr 2012 02:36 Edited at: 13th Apr 2012 02:45
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It seems a lot agree that re-writing DBP to run in a DX10 or even a DX11 environment would be neither use nor ornament at this time. Because that's what it would take, a complete re-write of everything from the core, upwards. DX9 is more than fine as the backbone for any engine. Just like openGL 2 is.

If there was going to be a re-write of DBP then I'd like to see and openGL version, at least then TGC can consider going cross platform. They've already done that with AGK. Even still, the differences between the DX versions, with various libraries being dropped (or deprecated as the latest fads seem to be), it's also the same with openGL. And I know with openGL the programmer can easily implement extra code by checking availability of extensions. I think that's also true of DX. But, for cross platform, it would be a major step and a better option.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
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mr Handy
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Posted: 17th Apr 2012 10:08
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does set texture array exist for DBP?
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DevilLiger
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Posted: 17th Apr 2012 10:53
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they should add open gl in AppGameKit than they're definitely on a roll.


[img][/img]
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Brendy boy
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Posted: 17th Apr 2012 13:42
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Quote: "they should add open gl in AppGameKit than they're definitely on a roll."

AGK uses open GL

BBB GUI Plugin
Landscape & Map Creator
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xSpadez
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Posted: 17th Apr 2012 23:24
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@DevilLiger
If AppGameKit exports your code to phones and other platforms, it obviously has OpenGL because I don't see DirectX on a Ipad....

I don't see what the hype about DBProx10 is because there are still alot of PC's and (including mine) can't run dx10. So your dev'ing for newer machines then

xSpadez - Like a baws
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Irradic
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Posted: 18th Apr 2012 11:44
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I honestly think DevilLiger meant Open GL 3D capability.
From what I see from AppGameKit it only is capable of 2D.
That's great for some, but makes it useless for others.

DBPro is now around 7-8 years old and people are naturally asking, where is the successor ? There is still plenty of eye candy in DX9, but despite the advanced capabilities of newer DX renditions, people are asking for other things like support for multi threading (without hack methods), the ability to stream assets in the background etc.
DBPro is a product with a lot of potential, it would be sad if DBPro was the end of the line.
I just wish TGC would let us know what the deal is. The DBPro section of the Newsletter has been referring to Lee's blog for the longest time, and all I get to read is about AppGameKit,AGK, AGK...
That's where TGC's focus is right now anyway.

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