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AppGameKit Classic Chat / The Advantage of using one Tier over the other

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bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 12:06
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What's your personal experience with using one tier over the other?

I am a T2 user.
I don't see much difference between the AppGameKit Basic code and the same equivalent in C++

T2 lets me use 3rd party libs for the platform with ease and I can use specific platform sdk calls not yet supported by agk.

I develop in VS and can use it's very good debugger.

The only advantage I see in the T1 is the broadcast feature, but I see so many posts from people asking for the latest Player that I don't know if this is an actual advantage.

Any other experiences?
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Hodgey
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Posted: 9th May 2012 12:52
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Since Tier 1 is BASIC, it's very easy for self-taught programmers (as well as other programmers) to pick up. I've tried teaching myself C++ and got as far as pointers before calling it a day. I'm now taking a Computer Science degree and so will learn the ways of C++ soon (I'm eager to get back into it) but for now, Tier 1 allows me to get demos up in a very short time. Sure it lacks some of the advantages of Tier 2 but it also lacks the complexity of Tier 2.

Also, I'm not sure how cross platform publishing works with Tier 2 but I would think that it's not as simple as Tier 1.

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polomint
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Posted: 9th May 2012 13:04
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I prefer Tier 2 because I can access other libraries or work around problems with agk. Although I would like to be able to use VS for Playbook app building. I'm using Momentics atm, which works reasonably well though.

I sometimes use Tier 1 for quick tests with new commands that I don't know which means jumping onto the other PC because AppGameKit won't run a Tier 1 app if you have less than 32bit colour on your desktop (I like to RDP into the other PC which has limited me to 16bit colour).

Blackberry App Development & ZX Spectrum Game Development.
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bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 13:12
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Hodgey, if I compare a BASIC and C++ code in AGk I don't see any big difference.

That's why I wonder why many people keep claiming that BASIC is easier to pick up.

I am a self taught programmer life you. I learned C++ because of DarkGDK
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Hodgey
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Posted: 9th May 2012 13:48
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Quote: "I am a self taught programmer life you. I learned C++ because of DarkGDK "

You've done very well then. It may be that the many features of C++ is daunting to new users such as the use of namespaces, pointers, OOP concepts such as polymorphism etc. Some people just like the simpler things in life. We are very lucky that TGC has catered for both cases.

I'm currently learning Java at uni at the moment and am loving it. There are times when I do wish the AppGameKit BASIC language had some of the featuers that Java has such as OOP but then I guess if you want those, you move to Tier 2. Hopefully, I'll be among the T2 ranks soon.

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Marl
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Posted: 9th May 2012 14:14 Edited at: 9th May 2012 14:17
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Quote: "I prefer Tier 2 because I can access other libraries"

I'm the opposite. Libraries do my crust in.

I started Android programming using Java, but soon got sick of looking up the format and syntax of every function I wanted to use.

Sure the SDK is great, it tells you what libraries you need and even fixes your code, but what's my input? It's just a jigsaw of other peoples routines and a clever IDE.

I switched to AppGameKit Tier 1 because I just want to code and go, not spend hours trying to find the best library call to print a string.

Broadcast was the deal clincher for me.

I've not looked at Tier 2 yet, so can't really comment.

I've used C in the past, but I'm not a big fan - probably because of the excessive use of the asterisk
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bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 14:27 Edited at: 9th May 2012 14:28
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Quote: "You've done very well then. It may be that the many features of C++ is daunting to new users such as the use of namespaces, pointers, OOP concepts such as polymorphism etc."


I like simple things in life too. I don't use any of those, just the basic necessary!

If you need a good book to start with check this out:

http://www.amazon.com/Beginning-C-Through-Game-Programming/dp/1435457420
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baxslash
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Posted: 9th May 2012 14:40
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I am also a self taught programmer and use a variety of other languages to develop in. I find AppGameKit Basic a simple language to pick up as a DBPro user but I also like the fact that if I write something in AppGameKit I know it's ready to export easily onto other platforms. If I use another library in C++ or a method that is not directly transferable to other platforms I have to rewrite my code, using Tier 1 means I don't have to worry about that. I know that anything I make in Tier 1 will work on any platform. It's kind of why it was done that way... the SDK's are for users who prefer to use native languages and know the pitfalls and advantages of doing so. AppGameKit Basic is for people who want to "code and go" like Marl said.

Also like Marl said you can broadcast to your device to test it as you go. Very handy that! I can test my code on a Blackberry PlayBook, an iPod touch, a netbook and my PC in under ten seconds... deal done.

Other languages do have their advantages but for me, I like to keep it simple. I don't want to have to learn lots of different languages, I have enough of them in my leaky brain as it is!

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Alain91
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Posted: 9th May 2012 16:35
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For me it is tier1 (basic) because I want ios/android straight compatibility..

Sometimes, I wish to use C++ but ..
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 9th May 2012 18:03 Edited at: 9th May 2012 18:04
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While I like to do object oriented programming (Tier2), I very much wanted the ability to code once and distribute across many platforms.

I'm having some very good success testing on Windows, iOS and Android platforms with the game I am working on in Tier1.

If I was only going to target one platform, I'd go with Tier2 programming.

Having said that, once the Java version of AppGameKit is out, I might port my game(s) from Tier1 to platform specific Tier2. Since the examples and templates for the Mac/iOS platform use pretty standard C++ (as opposed to Objective C), it probably won't be too hard to do one conversion and then tweak for the other other platform. The Java version for Android will probably be a little trickier.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 18:16
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i made my project work on windows, ios, android & blackberry in T2 without any problems.
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Ashambles
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Posted: 9th May 2012 19:10
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Can you use the Tier 2 AppGameKit with Objective-C? I'd rather spend time learning that than C++. Right now I've just begun with Tier 1 and it's fun, but I keep wanting to reach for those OOP "tools"

Besides working in a more familiar paradigm, I'm also interested in working in Tier 2 so I can integrate SQLite.

On Twitter as [href="https://twitter.com/#!/MuseHill"]MuseHill[/href]
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Alain91
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Posted: 9th May 2012 20:18
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Any method, hint on how to achieve this bjadams ?
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bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 20:39
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I just copy the template.cpp over, add the media files and compile! That's the way it was intended i guess.
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 9th May 2012 23:17
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The Mac/iOS Tier 2 is basically C++ on top of Xcode Objective C bits and libraries. The AppGameKit libraries are written in C++ (I think) and have appropriate hooks for working in iOS or Mac worlds.

You do your game specific stuff in the template.h and template.cpp files under the Classes directory.

When the app is built. It uses the Other Sources/Core.mm Objective C as the main file for the application. It looks like that is where you would customize the size for a Mac app.

If you look closely at the Core.mm file, you can see the places where it calls the three main functions in template.cpp - Begin, Loop and End.

So, I don't think you would be doing much Objective C programming for Tier2 Mac/iOS apps.

But, I could be totally wrong. I'm only going on what I can see from looking at the templates and some examples.

Some of the examples have .mm files (theoretically Objective C), but the contents look like straight C++ to me.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Ashambles
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Posted: 9th May 2012 23:48
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Thanks, Ancient Lady, that's helpful to know.

Twitter: MuseHill
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bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 23:52
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no objective c unless you want to call direct ios sdk commands.

all is done in c++

actually xcode (or the gnu compiler) can handle c++ very well but apple don't like to mention that much
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DVader
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Posted: 10th May 2012 07:57
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I started coding back on the Spectrum 48+, using BASIC. I had an Atari 2600 prior to that, and always wanted to know how they made the games. When I saw my friends Spectrum, I was intrigued by the ability to actually code your own stuff! After that, I went back to consoles for awhile as the quality of stuff coming out was a little better than the old speccy could cope with.I eventually got an Amiga, and used AMOS, AMOS +compiler , and Blitz Basic for awhile.
After owning a PC for a few years, I found Dark Basic for PC, then DB Pro and now AGK. So I would say I like BASIC
I never dreamed when programming my Spectrum, that I would be able to do the sort of things you can today in good old BASIC. I remember the days of having to play with the memory settings (poke on the Spectrum) for it to allow me to change the keyboard graphics to new UDG's, so I could use 92 extra on top of the original free 21. 21, 8x8 sprites don't cover very much
AGK is good, in that it has the option of both BASIC and C++, so we have the choice.

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polomint
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Posted: 10th May 2012 09:14
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Z80 ftw! lol

Blackberry App Development & ZX Spectrum Game Development.
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bjadams
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Posted: 10th May 2012 11:09
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DVader your computer history story is almost identical to mine!!!
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polomint
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Posted: 10th May 2012 11:55
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I went Sinclair BASIC, Z80 (ZX Spectrum), 65xx (C64), 680x0(Amiga/Atari ST), Turbo Pascal (PC), C (Amiga), C++ (PC), C# (PC), then AGK-C++ (BlackBerry), and probably some other weird stuff that I've forgotten, lol

Blackberry App Development & ZX Spectrum Game Development.
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 10th May 2012 17:18 Edited at: 10th May 2012 17:19
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Ok, Atari 400 Basic and assembly language, after replacing the membrane keyboard with a keyed one and getting the floppy drive the first week they were out (my ex always wanted the newest of everything, even if he never touched it).

I created my daughters birth announcements with the Atari, creating my own special print graphics on an Epson 80 (I think).

I'd hate to have to list all the languages and platforms (35 years worth, my forum name is somewhat descriptive). But am now happy to add the Mac to my list and I'll give Objective C a try.

But Basic (originally designed as a teaching language in universities) has always been relatively easy to program in. The tricky part is trying to do things that it wasn't meant for, like linked lists. But it is great for it's general ease of use.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Impetus73
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Posted: 11th May 2012 11:37 Edited at: 11th May 2012 11:38
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I only use Tier1, Basic!

I made my first program on a ZX-Spectrum in 1983 at the age of 10. It was my friend's computer, and his hamster had chewed off some of the rubber keys from the keyboard. LOL

I went to Amstrad CPC6128 -> C64 -> Amiga 500+ -> Amiga 1200 -> PC 386 / 486 / pentium -> i7 quad (as of now)

I have programmed almost any flavour of basic, mostly CPC basic and AMOS but also some Qbasic.

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Hodgey
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Posted: 11th May 2012 12:45
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Quote: "If you need a good book to start with check this out:"

Thanks bjadams!

I almost feel ashamed that the first computer I ever used was a windows 98 one. I'm just too young to have enjoyed the earlier generation of PCs.

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Impetus73
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Posted: 11th May 2012 14:14 Edited at: 11th May 2012 14:15
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Most young people today: "Windows 98, what's that? I thought 8 were next..." haha, your old enaugh for me Hodgey! :-p

I wonder what Microsoft will do with the new naming scheme after releasing windows version 94, 95 is kinda used already... (Assuming 9 follows 8, and so on)

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 11th May 2012 14:32 Edited at: 11th May 2012 14:35
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I'm almost certainly old enough to make Ancient Lady look like a teenager (which she may well do!). Bought an Apple ][ when it came out in 1978. I'm actually a writer, and I learned to program using AppleSoft Basic at first, but when UCSD Pascal came out shortly after I found it by far the fastest and best language to develop with, and I still do.

I've used C/C++, various assemblers, Forth, Oberon, Modula-2, Lisp, APL - you name it!

I was one of the developers for Commodore and others for the Amiga and CDTV - programmed Music Maker for the CDTV launch and wrote chunks of the CDTV Developers' Manual. I also ported a PC CD writer program to the Amiga - the first time an Amiga wrote a CD. Blanks cost £25 each, and CD writers like the Philips cost £3,000. Think of that next time you chuck a naff DVD blank that cost you next to nothing into the rubbish can. Grown developers cried publicly if a disk burn failed.

When Commodore screwed up with the CD32, in which the engineers had removed a vital interrupt, making half the programs not work correctly, and then the monstrous Medhi Ali cashed in his chips and destroyed Commodore, I had to refocus on PC programming - much as I hated the primitive machines.

Fortunately, Delphi came out at about that time. Without question Delphi remains the best programming interface created so far. There is nothing that you can do in C++ that you can't do using Delphi, and a hell of a lot using Delphi that you can't do in C++ - or if you can it'll take you weeks instead of seconds.

I've only used Basic once since 1979. AppGameKit Basic has some crippling limitations, in my opinion - particularly in an over-reliance on globals, lack of call by reference, lack of inheritance... I could go on. I do not believe that Basic is easy to use well, and my aged opinion is that a strongly-typed language like Pascal with pre-declared variables saves huge amounts of time and frustration because the compiler will catch 90% of problems before you're even able to run the program.

Sorry for the long post - but I'm very old and inclined to ramble on a bit.

-- Jim
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baxslash
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Posted: 11th May 2012 14:55
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I'm sure my Dad would agree with most / all of what you are saying about programming in AppGameKit Basic vs strongly typed languages. He was a programmer since before I was born (1973). He programmed in machine code and could probably tell you any number between one and a million in binary. I wish he was still around to give me some advice sometimes, I'll bet he could have taught us all a thing or 10 unfortunately he died nearly 17 years ago leaving me with a small knowledge of Basic from the Spectrum days. I was a blacksmith for about 13 years and I only got back into programming a few years ago through work using Lisp for AutoCad. After that I got DBPro and then went on to get a job as a programmer using C#, Python and a few other languages here and there.

You could say I'm biased towards Basic because of why I got into programming in the first place but I don't care. I know it has its limitations but it allows dullards like me to learn programming without having to understand the underlying architecture and construct that goes on behind the scenes. I'll leave all that to smarter guys than myself. I like to create, Basic allows me to create the things I love. Games!

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 11th May 2012 17:31 Edited at: 11th May 2012 17:32
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JimHawkins rules!!!

I discovered computers in 1977 when the intro-psych class was filled and my now-ex, then boyfriend, suggested the intro-computer class. I loved it and it wasn't until years later that I found out it was a great field to be in. I ended up in the telecoms/satellite business (and got to live in Den Haag, Nederlands for four years).

The first computer I owned was the Atari 400 and the next a name brand IBM PC (intel 8086 processor). I used Basic and Turbo Pascal on that one. Now, I custom build my boxes. I've been amazed at the growth in capability and the dropping prices in the PC world (linux boxes are non-windows PCs).

But JimHawkins definitely gets the best creds with actually as a developer for the Commodore (our neighbor had one) and the Amiga. Way cool!

And any language that lets so many people program, like Basic, definitely ranks high up there.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Impetus73
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Posted: 11th May 2012 18:20
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I vote to upgrade Jim's status from "User" to "ex-commodore dev" or "Demi-God" I think the two is interchangable! I love the Amiga, I only wish they still existed as a company like in the good old days. Imagine an Amiga with high res and graphicschips ala 2012... ohh sweet!

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 11th May 2012 18:28
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My vote is for "Demi-God".

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Impetus73
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If someone has a wikipedia edit account, please add jim to this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demigods

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baxslash
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Posted: 11th May 2012 18:39 Edited at: 11th May 2012 18:44
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I do but it might get me kicked... I reckon it might be worth getting kicked for that.



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Impetus73
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do
ROTFL()
LOL()
APPLAUSE()
loop



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DVader
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Posted: 11th May 2012 21:01
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@ bjadams, we obviously must have a similar taste in computers

@ polomint, my teacher brought in a Z80, which he had typed a space invaders game up to show us. As it was made up of letters and no graphics, my 2600 seemed way cooler, and I didn't take much notice. It took Jetpac on the Speccy to convert me a few years later, and Christmas took a long time to arrive I bought a game called Oh Mummy in readiness for it, and oh my was I disappointed with that!

@ Jimhawkins, nice one. The closest I got to getting into the games industry was 2 interviews at Elite systems. The first one went well, but the second didn't . The CD32 was a badly rushed out product imo. They should have released a CD-Drive for the Amiga 1200 first, to get the ball rolling with games support. I think they made a big mistake in chasing the console owners for sales. It was never going to be easy to break into the Sega/Nintendo market at the time. They also should have released a game based on the Gwangi style dino demo included with the CD32

As I said before BASIC is my fave, mainly because it is so familiar to me after, hmmm how long should I admit to lol? Say 25+ years of dabbling with it. I remember a few people praising the wonders of pascal, but have never really looked into it. I thought it was mostly for business use? I have also heard of Delphi, it has been round for quite awhile, I thought it was just a good C++ compiler, but by the sounds, isn't, lol.
Still, tier 1 seems a good bet for it's ability to be converted to all formats quickly, and fairly easily (once you have sussed the compile process).

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bjadams
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Posted: 11th May 2012 21:52
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DVader, Delphi was good in the Borland times. The Embarcadero Delphi there is today is quite a bloated & broken affair... sorry to all Delphi fans!
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bjadams
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DVader, yes indeed our history on computers has quite a few similarities. I started around 1985 on the 8bit platform. I had an MSX which at the time had the best game graphics. I coded 2 games in BASIC. Those days games were spread in listings at the back of magazines and people had to type them in! I got a job for the sole purpose of buying an Amiga500 where I mostly played games and did graphics in Deluxe Paint. I got an A1200 checked out AMOS but settled for Blitz Basic as I mostly wanted to do applications and BB offered native windows, buttons & lists, etc...

Moved over to Intel 8088 & DOS and started to learn Turbo Pascal for academical reasons. After WindowsXP I tried most of the application development tools & nowadays settled for HTML5 & JQuery for database-style app development. I always had a great love for multimedia graphics and games so eventually I came across DarkBasicPro. I did not like the fact that it created temporary files, so I had to learn C++ and moved over to DarkGDK. Unfortunately the product was not supported as much as I liked, so here I am with AppGameKit now!
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 11th May 2012 23:47 Edited at: 11th May 2012 23:51
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If I'm going to be a Demi-God, I want Ancient Lady to be my Demi-Goddess! And anyway, shouldn't that be Demo-God????

Lee and I could tell you a lot of funny and bizarre stories about the Amiga days, CDTV, and the CD32. Quicky: as I said before, I ported CD-writer software to the Amiga, and Commodore in Maidenhead needed me to advise on formats etc. Well - I was NDAd for CDTV but not for CD32, so officially, from management perspective could not even look at a circuit board. But Jim McConoquie, in charge of external developers in the UK couldn't test anything without me. I was smuggled into HQ and was doing stuff when the warning came that the head of Commodore UK was descending the staircase to talk to development staff. I then spent over half an hour hiding under Jim McConoquie's desk listening to a load of rubbish management-speak.

Computers are tidy and logical things. Computer companies are chaos divided by insanity.

BUT - in those days I could phone CATS in the USA (Commodore Amiga Technical Support), speak to Caroline or one of the others if I had a problem or I thought they had a problem, and talk to somebody I'd had a drink with. Those days are long gone. You have to pay Microsoft to join MSDN in order to email a bug report.

I think people should work in the language they find most congenial for them. BUT - our language-lab system, which handles networked video, speech over IP, text, subtitling and a lot more, is about 490,000 lines of source code. I really don't think we could do that with Basic.

Much as dislike taking issue with bjadams, Delphi XE2 is not bloated nor unstable. It can also produce GL-based 2d and 3d programs for PC, Mac and iOS, with Android coming soon.

Oh - and when The Year's Best Science Fiction comes out in July, buy a copy. It's got one of my novelette's (like last year's) and a few pennies help to stick a crust down the aged throat!

-- Jim
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bjadams
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Posted: 12th May 2012 00:18
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Jim after being a user of Turbo Delphi from the Borland era, I looked into the XE incarnation. I shyied away after frequenting their boards.
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JimHawkins
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Look - forums are full of people who would rather complain than read the documentation. Delphi has served me well over the last 25 or more years. Recent moans have mostly been about FireMonkey - which is, like AppGameKit, cross-platform.

I think that if you Google "problems with VC++ 2010 you will find several million more!

-- Jim
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