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Dark GDK / What would you expect from a free version of DarkGDK 2.0?

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Mistrel
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Posted: 9th May 2012 13:22
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I would very much like to provide a free version of DarkGDK 2.0 for those who are curious about the product but also those who may not be able to afford the cost of the software.

I want to provide enough of a solution where the product is capable of being used to create a full game but leave enough of an incentive where free users will eventually want to upgrade to the full to take advantage of all of its features.

Things I've been considering:

A time limit that will only allow the application to run for 5 minutes or so before a message pops up; more than enough time to experiment, not enough time to publish a commercial product.

Limit expandability by disallowing traditional third party plugins.

I'm also toying with the idea of putting together alternative methods of obtaining a commercial license. For example, a referral system, monthly giveaways, contests.

Please understand that I will try to keep DarkGDK as accessible as possible for you guys but I need to keep a balance where I continue to receive a return on my time invested.

What are your thoughts?

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Fallout
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Posted: 9th May 2012 13:52
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If the pop-up could be closed and the application continues to run, then I would favour that solution. That way people can push the engine to make a fairly complete game, including a lot of testing, without being forced into a purchase before they're confident the engine can support their full game.

A dialogue popping up every 5 minutes would make release of anything commercial impossible, so it'd cover commercial misuse. If the app was forced closed after 5 minutes though, that would far too annoying. There are lots of things you might want to experiment with that would take longer than 5 minutes (lightmapping/rendering are the first things that come to mind).

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MrValentine
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Posted: 9th May 2012 15:14
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Is cost discussed yet?

As it may be silly to price it as high as PGDK...

Make a donate button and anybody who has a heart will gladly throw any profits your way... I know I would... My point... Not too high... Max fifty pounds I would be willing to pay and thirty five pounds for an upgrade on my current licence... And then an option to give you or TGC more... I was going to suggest they put a donate button on their home site but I dunno...

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Mistrel
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Posted: 9th May 2012 15:21 Edited at: 9th May 2012 15:24
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The current price of PureGDK has been about about $120 between the cost of both DBP and PureGDK. Lee and I both agree that we want to see this lowered to be more in line with other TGC products as well as the new AppGameKit price.

As such we will be dropping the "upgrade" version (the old DBP to PureGDK upgrade) altogether and moving the the new price somewhere between the $60 to $70 range.

I don't know as of yet how we will address previous DarkGDK users as this is bordering a completely new product rather than an "update".

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MrValentine
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Posted: 9th May 2012 15:24
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I do t understand that but... Ok... Fifty sounds feasable...

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WLGfx
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Posted: 9th May 2012 15:27
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I'd actually like it to be exactly the same as Dark GDK is at the moment, free for those wanting to use it and develop with, just not to be used for anything commercial unless they want to purchase a license. Dark GDK has been perfect for that purpose for a few users.

I had tried and tested Pure GDK and was happy with it at the time but at the end of the day, Dark GDK gives you a lot more bare bones access to the GDK inner workings. Pure GDK beta had a time limit on each update and at one point I completely gave up on it with lack of forum support and not knowing more information about the beta time out.

The current Dark GDK in my opinion is the perfect solution for DBP users (and other beginner programmers) to make the jump over to C/C++. Taking away that freedom will also take away a lot of the forum members and people willing to learn. Only those that have paid for the packages will be left with few to help along the way which has made this community what it is today.

If Dark GDK went down the same route as Pure GDK did then I would certainly leave and move over to IrrLicht or Ogre or even back to openGL. I've been with the forums for long enough to have a soft spot for supporting the DBP community and after trying out other engines I have found myself coming back because I like to do my bit for free for the DBP community. That wouldn't be allowed to happen as a new version of GDK would likely not allow for testing code before transferring it into a plugin for DBP anywhere near as fast.

It would certainly be a shame for me to leave the forums as I've lots still to give away for 'free' to the DBP users.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
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MrValentine
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Posted: 9th May 2012 15:34
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I agree with WLGfx...

I think the issue is not a lot of commercial licences will run off the mill so an non terminating notice is probably a winning solution...

And I need WLGfx to show me how to use GDK1-2 so please choose carefully...

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WLGfx
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Posted: 9th May 2012 15:59
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@MrValentine - I'm watching the forums posts as they go by but already I'm downloading another API which I tried sometime ago. It will just take me a tad longer to make something now. Otherwise, I'd have spent hour after hour showing people how to make the transition from DBP to GDK.

Everything is on hold at the moment while I fill my HD up with other user manuals. I feel disappointed, cheated and let down because I can't afford a basic license. (Just texted the missus to wish her luck at the bingo, I need ink for the printer)

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
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McLaine
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Posted: 9th May 2012 17:01 Edited at: 9th May 2012 17:06
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GDK core = Free, royalties on anything produced that earns over a certain amount (Akin to Rak Net networking library)

A big fat NO to adverts or time limits. This would have me jumping ship. I'm already struggling to explain to friends why I am sticking with GDK and not joining them in Unity.

I would expect a fully functioning 'Core' (Basically what we have now in GDK + bug fixes).
So long as I have access in the core to basic versions of stuff like networking, collision, etc for proof of concept, I wouldn't then mind paying individually for more powerful add-on upgrades for those specialised bits of functionality. (much like we can buy DarkPhysics, EZRotate, DarkNet etc...)

It's not my fault!
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Fallout
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Posted: 9th May 2012 17:47
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The challenge here is obviously to get a solution which makes these guys money (it's a business after all!), but maximizes the user base. The pop message without application termination would work for me personally.

I would imagine:
- Commercial developers would buy a license quickly
- Serious hobbyists would play with it for a few days then buy a license once convinced
- Average users would probably use it for quite a long time without a license, finally buying a license when they put something half decent together and don't want that damn annoying pop-up anymore
- Very casual users + newbies to programming (who usually give up after a few weeks/months) would never buy a license.

Obviously you'd miss a trick on getting money from the types who take a punt without trying things first, but I would imagine that's worth it to secure the hobbyists who'll actually use it and develop the community.

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GreenDixy
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Posted: 10th May 2012 14:24
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If DarkGdk/Pure had a option That if you sell the game after XX ammount you had to pay a % this would be a awesome option and a good insentive for people to switch.

======================================
My software never has bugs. It just develops random features.
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WLGfx
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Posted: 10th May 2012 16:33
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Selling something, ie making something and then making money off it is completely different from a hobbyist forum member writing stuff and giving away plugins/code/help/support.

If I wrote something that I think I could make money off then maybe I'd come to some sort of agreement, ie give me a penny for every pound made or something, or a license so that TGC can make the better side of the profit.

This lately about the licensing of "Dark GDK 2" has got me riled a tad as a hobbyist programmer, being forced to keep with the times by paying a license fee. For a product that's been free and that has been used in schools and colleges all over it has been amazing to learn and work with. I'd hate to see the flush not work anymore because of a bad decision.

Please, leave the availability as it is because there's still a good few years of community support and teaching to give out yet from a lot of the members.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th May 2012 16:42
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What WLGfx said is pretty solid to be frank...

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WLGfx
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Posted: 10th May 2012 16:53 Edited at: 10th May 2012 16:55
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@MrValentine - Cheers, I hope I'm not the only one here...

Dropping a spanner in the works as such would lessen the community in a big way. Valuable contributions to the community of software and tools will diminish. Already I've said it's a darn good community at that.

Serious users of the software (like me) will eventually buy a license when they can anyway.

EDIT: I understand efforts need rewarding, but even so, I was even going to be looking into rebuilding some of the DBP libraries with some of my own optimisations. I'll have to see now. I didn't want rewarding apart from a 'thank you'. But I will purchase a license at some point though.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
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Matty H
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Posted: 10th May 2012 18:59
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I would go for a time limit, 5 minutes would be enough for most things. An annoying popup message every 5 minutes but allowing you to continue(as Fallout suggested) would be better for us but maybe not for you, not sure.

DarkGDK and Visual studio express being free was the main reason I got into programming again after a 15 year break, I probably would not have spent out at that point as I had no idea it would become such a large part of my life.

If I am correct DarkGDK was only free due to a deal TGC made with Microsoft, TGC probably got good compensation for making DBPro libs available for use with VC++ and I don't see any reason why Mistrel should not get compensated for all the work he has put in for GDK 2.

All that said, personally I am looking to AppGameKit, more so when it goes 3D. I also use Irrlicht a little too, so purchasing GDK 2 is not a definite for me but a free version will at least allow me to try it out and make my mind up.

Good look Mistrel, I hope this is very successful for you.

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Fallout
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Posted: 10th May 2012 22:53
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What's going to happen to GDK 1? Is it going to be removed from public domain, or will it still be available as a download link somewhere?

If GDK 1 is still available, then there's a fully free version of a very similar engine. There's no need to upgrade to 2 if you don't want to spend the money. GDK 1 is very capable, even if it won't be as good as 2, so nobody is being forced to find money to upgrade.

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Mistrel
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Posted: 10th May 2012 23:13
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DarkGDK 1.0 will still be around; it just won't receive any future updates.

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Mr Bigglesworth
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Posted: 11th May 2012 00:51
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Quote: "DarkGDK 1.0 will still be around; it just won't receive any future updates."


DarkGDK should at least be fixed, the latest update broke the 3D animation commands and I have been trying to modify the source to fix the problem, but haven't had success yet
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Todd Riggins
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Posted: 11th May 2012 05:14
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Hey Mistrel,

As we are capable of recompiling the Original DarkGDK along with the current version of DBPro for ourselves through Lee's Dark Basic SDK google source code, are you going to update the google source code with your personal additional features or keeping that code to yourself?

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Mistrel
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Posted: 11th May 2012 14:32 Edited at: 11th May 2012 14:36
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Quote: "As we are capable of recompiling the Original DarkGDK along with the current version of DBPro for ourselves through Lee's Dark Basic SDK google source code."


From what I understand, yes. However, DarkGDK 2.0 is completely different. Many of the new features are build "on top" of the engine not within the engine itself and will not propagate backwards if you were to recompile the engine. Additionally, features such as the 250 new commands and plugin support also will not propagate back as there are most likely no exports for these functions when compiling static libraries of the engine.

Quote: "Are you going to update the google source code with your personal additional features or keeping that code to yourself?"


Coinciding with this announcement, I now have commit access to the DBP/DarkGDK source code. This means that I can now fix bugs which PureGDK has had to previously work around. I'll also be able to add new features directly to the core engine and push those updates to you faster.

Previously, as PureGDK relied upon updates getting pushed into the source tree by Lee for me, those updates would not actually appear until a new release of DBP (as PureGDK/DarkGDK 2 uses the same code base). Now the situation has reversed. When I commit a change I can release updated files immediately with a new version of DarkGDK and those changes will then make their way into DBP (albeit unsupported).

The most important part of this announcement is that DarkGDK will have a developer dedicated working on this product exclusively whereas Lee has his resources spread across many different projects. This is a very good thing for the health of DarkGDK as a whole.

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aspro
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Posted: 16th May 2012 15:22
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i suggest the C++ version to be a free with a "student version" Label on its output corner unless he pay a fee. while keep the usage from other languages commercial. i say that because i saw how much the book of tony gaddis "Starting Out with Games and Graphics in C++" are famous just because he used the darkgdk with vc++ 2008 and even he used very limited area from darkgdk mostly 2D. and darkgdk used by many educational institutions together with the book as an example from many:
http://www.harding.edu/ragsdale/comp150/ search the page for "gdk"
the same for the free online book "Software Design Using C++" http://cis.stvincent.edu/html/tutorials/swd/ he used darkgdk.
if v2 have no bugs like the 2010 darkgdk update especially the not working model animations. the free darkgdk for C++ version will boost its usage more and more in educational places and making it more famous and making customers for other possible products.
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Mister Fuzzy
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Posted: 20th May 2012 19:37
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If there was a popup every X minutes, I'd probably leave. The DGDK community is filled with people (like me) who love to code, but can't afford to buy a fancy library that takes care of base functions like GDK. Everything and anything relating to game development is uber-expensive (don't believe this? Just try finding cheap, quality game models and shaders.), and for quite some time DGDK's freedom has been a breath of fresh air.

Then again, there IS the need for TGC to make money. What exactly is the problem with the commercial license path? It seems the most feasible way to make some cash without making anybody angry. Instead of making the library expensive, and the license equally expensive, why not just make the LICENSE expensive and leave the library free for hobbyists?

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Olby
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Posted: 20th May 2012 20:47
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Quote: "What exactly is the problem with the commercial license path?"


How many commercial products you've seen or heard are using DBPro/Classic or DGDK? I know about 5-10 and I've been around since early days of DarkBasic Classic. This is because DarkBasic is aimed towards indie/hobbyist game developers and they rarely produce something commercially viable. TGC wouldn't benefit at all if DGDK was to be released free for non-commercial purposes.

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Dar13
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Posted: 22nd May 2012 21:55
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Quote: "If there was a popup every X minutes, I'd probably leave."

Agreed. The annoyance factor is just too large. If it was a required 30 second splash screen, that wouldn't be too bad though I doubt it would be technically feasible.

Personally, I liked the DarkGDK 1.0 model but it won't be sustainable, especially for a high-support product like DarkGDK 2.0. I think the best way to go about it is a small ($5-15 small) for an 'indie' license that entitles TGC to 10-20% of all revenue above $1000 and either a splash screen and/or mention in the credits. The commercial license would have no restrictions whatsoever but be significantly more expensive(by a factor of no less than 10).

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Prextel
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2012 00:13
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The second anyone receives the libraries, absolutely anything can be added or removed; including any popups, splash screens, or references to the library even being used. Usually libraries are not a good thing to have a price tag slapped onto, as any release can be easily modified.
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Diggsey
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2012 03:07
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How about a watermark in the corner in the free version, the same as for the DBPro trial if it still exists?

[b]
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bjadams
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 00:45 Edited at: 7th Jun 2012 00:49
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I think you need to put an attractive low price for people to buy it.

Why should I buy DGK when AppGameKit is $59 and is cross platform?
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Olby
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 01:09
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Quote: "Why should I buy DGK when AppGameKit is $59 and is cross platform? "


Umm.. 3D support?

Even if AppGameKit supports some basic 3D down the road it will never be as extensive as in DBPro/GDK. It's aimed at different market share.


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MrValentine
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 01:26
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Quote: " Even if AppGameKit supports some basic 3D down the road it will never be as extensive as in DBPro/GDK. It's aimed at different market share."


Tier 2?

I have decided not to invest in GDK any further as I realised I have AppGameKit and will invest in AppGameKit 3D when the time cmes... As I feel uncomfortable with the attitude I receive from a certain sombody...

Btw how do I delete my account on GDKs site? You do realise that by law I am entitled to that so dont say I cannot... [thats not a threat just factual information]

Its a shame really I was looking forward to using GDK as my future development platform...

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Olby
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 02:42
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Quote: "I have decided not to invest in GDK any further as I realised I have AppGameKit and will invest in AppGameKit 3D when the time cmes... As I feel uncomfortable with the attitude I receive from a certain sombody."


What was the issue you had, can I help you?

Quote: "Tier 2?"


It took 11 years for DBPro to achieve what it does nowadays. Would be unbelievable for AppGameKit to do the same in a year or so. Besides, as I said, it is aimed at casual/mobile market so I don't expect possibilities to create something more exciting than that. And unless you want to go deep into native platform development you will always have to wait until they introduce a command "X" you've been waiting for so long.


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MrValentine
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 03:19 Edited at: 7th Jun 2012 03:22
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well, The core basics are broken in GDK2 I have never played with GDK1 yet but as I still have VS08 and VS10 still installed I might have a go with that...

as I am currently going further into web development I am having to ditch GDK for the time being and put it on the back burner but from time to time I will try to keep an eye on GDK and somebodys attitude should it ever change...

I would have thought T2 was expandable over T1...

[if I can create a 3D environment, texture it, add multiplayer and have a database... Job Done]

EDIT

Typo I in bold

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Diggsey
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 03:24
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Tier 2 just gives you the exact same commands as Tier 1 except you use C++... If you're going to implement cross-platform 3D commands in C++ why even use AppGameKit at all?

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MrValentine
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 03:35
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im probably not making it clear enough I am new to C++ not to mention the T2 stuff...

I understand the commands are ported to T2 but I am pretty sure I read that T2 allows you to build your own functions and such... I am even more confused now...


Hiya Diggsey

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Diggsey
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 03:44
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Yes, you can build your own functions... In C++
Hi

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Dar13
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 05:09
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Quote: "I understand the commands are ported to T2 but I am pretty sure I read that T2 allows you to build your own functions and such... I am even more confused now..."

It lets you build your own functions in C++. Which means that in order to have a cross-platform 3D engine, you'd have to either implement OGRE3D(one of the few free graphics engines to support iOS/Android(?)), or make your own 3D renderer which is extremely hard and really not worth the time.

And what Diggsey's point was, is that C++ is a wholly different beast compared to AGK's Tier 1 language or even the web technologies that you're more familiar with.

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Olby
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 13:03
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Quote: "The core basics are broken in GDK2"


What exactly is broken? To be honest I recently noticed that there's a lot of negative comments on the product that hasn't even been released yet. MrValanteine, you probably wasn't around when FPSC early adopter was out or better yet when the first incarnation of DarkBasic Professional was born. They all had certain issues that have been dealt with over the years. Now I'm not saying GDK2 is perfect, it's built on top of DBPro which itself is one peace of a buggy software. Also am not sure what kind of personal friction you had with Mistrel (I assume ) but as far as I'm concerned he has been handling this pretty well. It is what it is, feels like people recently have started to expect more from TGC than they can offer. Personally I don't have time to fully get back into game development so at the moment am perfectly comfortable in the seat of a spectator. But don't forget, Mistrel needs our help to squash as many bugs and inconsistencies as possible before the final is released. Let's see where it all goes. Now let's have a beer.

Quote: " add multiplayer and have a database..."

Haha, maybe in your next life (especially databases)


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bjadams
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 16:20
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Dbpro was made Lee. Agk has other people involved doing the mobile platform stuff. So its a different story.
Agk already has all the necessary commands to make a 2d game on the lines of dbpro... All in opengl.

So there is high hopes.

I really hope that in the months to come Minstrel will be able to kill most of the old dgdk inconsistencies and better the product.

If you put a good price tag on it current gdk users might want to give it a try.
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Olby
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 17:14 Edited at: 7th Jun 2012 17:15
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Quote: "Dbpro was made Lee."


Many people have been working on DBPro throughout it's history including: Lee, Mike, Ravey and now IanM.

Quote: "So there is high hopes."


You know they say that hope dies last. To me DBPro/GDK/AGK is just a development tool and if the person lacks talent and dedication then no matter how good the tool is nothing greater than Hello World will be produced.


Intel Core2Duo 2.2GHZ, 2GB, GeForce 8600M GT 1280MB, Windows Vista Ultimate SP2, PureBasic 4.61 + DarkGDK 2.0
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MrValentine
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 17:31
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Core basic = the totorial and the sample files and the include files are not working and I am still waiting on a link to his socalled video...

Quote: " Haha, maybe in your next life (especially databases) "


Care to elaborate or are you just being rude... Have a reread and ask yourself why I say this...on another note... He mentioned gdk 1.0 users get a free upgrade but how?

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Olby
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 17:50
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Quote: "Care to elaborate or are you just being rude..."


DBPro doesn't support databases natively and you expect some casual cross-platform game creation thingy to have it? I wish, especially taking into consideration the fact that AppGameKit does not support plugins.

Quote: "He mentioned gdk 1.0 users get a free upgrade but how?"


Well I suppose when the final product will hit the virtual TGC shelves all users who bought a copy of original GDK will receive an upgrade e-mail. This is how things have been done here over the years. There is no need to create a fuss around something yet to be finalised. Especially if anyone can register on www.darkgdk.com and trial the RC releases for free.

Quote: "Core basic = the totorial and the sample files and the include files are not working and I am still waiting on a link to his socalled video..."


Seems like you're the only one experiencing issues with running the samples - they work fine for me. Which video you're talking about exactly?

I'm not being rude, it just seems you've been steaming unnecessary. Here have another one.


Intel Core2Duo 2.2GHZ, 2GB, GeForce 8600M GT 1280MB, Windows Vista Ultimate SP2, PureBasic 4.61 + DarkGDK 2.0
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MrValentine
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 18:08
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I am not steaming but when someone blatently ignores you, and someone tried to be funny what do you expect?

anyway where does it say GDK2 will eventually be released here? all I recall is its moved to GDK.com entirely... I might have read it wrong... and nah man I prefer spirits [Jack Daniels my boy]

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Olby
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 18:51 Edited at: 7th Jun 2012 18:51
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Quote: "anyway where does it say GDK2 will eventually be released here? all I recall is its moved to GDK.com entirely... I might have read it wrong..."


As far as I know the whole PureGDK to DarkGDK transition is endorsed by TGC. They arranged with Mistrel, and he is now responsible for GDK development. Previously there where no dedicated developers working on GDK. Now there is at least one.

Here you go.. as good as it gets here


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MrValentine
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 18:57
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the vodka is helping I just hope its not russian XD

well, I do understand its early days, but still anyhow I shall let this be to rest as I need to focus more on web dev and then delve into C++ later this year hopefully and I am still hoping to use TGC GDK just not at present...

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bjadams
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 19:41
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Quote: "To me DBPro/GDK/AGK is just a development tool and if the person lacks talent and dedication then no matter how good the tool is nothing greater than Hello World will be produced. "


This is not the right attitude.
The developer should concentrate on making the best possible product and price it at a competitive price, not blame the users for being untalented or not dedicated.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 19:42
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I bjadams

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Olby
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Posted: 7th Jun 2012 19:54
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Quote: "The developer should concentrate on making the best possible product and price it at a competitive price, not blame the users for being untalented or not dedicated."


That's purely my opinion and you can disagree with it but one thing I do know, Mistrel is extremely devoted to making GDK a success and for what? So far I've seen people nagging and complaining and almost no one said a good word about all new and exciting enhancements GDK 2.0 offers.


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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jun 2012 04:25 Edited at: 8th Jun 2012 04:32
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I dont think I was complaining I was trying to get help and was ignored I was complaining about that...

Anyway please stop dragging the WHAT ISSUE YOU HAVING as I need to focus on my studies now... I will give GDK another come over in a few weeks as I constantly monitor the progress on the forum I will surely keep informed of updates...

Final note... Keep a free to use version so I can see if the tutorial works... then I can finally delve into C++ I am not interested in using GDK for free I am more than happy to invest... but I want to know it works first...

EDIT

Oh and Mistrel keep up the good work but please learn not to alienate people as you do its not nice, I think you are an amazing developer because anybody who can attempt to take on such a project is good in my bookd... do not get me wrong here I have a huge amount of respect for you but when you alienate me the way you do, its not nice. and I am not the only one on here who feels this way. just a heads up.

Pasta time! [02:30 am]

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Olby
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Posted: 8th Jun 2012 13:06 Edited at: 8th Jun 2012 13:10
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Quote: "Anyway please stop dragging the WHAT ISSUE YOU HAVING as I need to focus on my studies now..."


I think it's rude of you to say something is not working and yet not provide any proper bug report. No offence but it's just ridiculous. It would be of a great help if you'd specified what exactly you tried to achieve and what didn't work. What Visual Studio version and DGDK 2.0 release candidate you're using. Computer specs, etc. Please try to understand that developers can't give personal attention to all of us here. They can make better products if we provide them with necessary information to trace the bugs and not go through piles of offensive posts.


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bjadams
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Posted: 8th Jun 2012 13:26
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Valentine, I tried a couple of examples and they worked straight away for me!!!
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jun 2012 22:32
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Quote: "well, The core basics are broken in GDK2 I have never played with GDK1 yet but as I still have VS08 and VS10 still installed I might have a go with that..."


and I am on win7x64Ultimate

Quote: "I will give GDK another come over in a few weeks as I constantly monitor the progress on the forum I will surely keep informed of updates..."


Clearly I am reading here... and you are not...

Stop dragging it on and read what I have said you are feuling your own steam here.

Enough said and I have detailed my issue in another one of Mistrels threads so dont say what is not needed. thanks, now where is that vodka Olby

@ bjadams
Quote: "Valentine, I tried a couple of examples and they worked straight away for me!!! "
using?

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