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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK - growing up fast!

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RickV
TGC Development Director
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Posted: 9th May 2012 21:49
Hi,

I'm starting this discussion because I'm sure you have some great ideas that we can tap into. AppGameKit is still young and the new kid on the block and he's got to prove himself to these older, taller guys that get all the chicks (users).

Who do you think TGC should be looking to introduce AppGameKit to, so he get gain respect and start to be noticed as an up and coming contender?

In plane speak I'm asking for ideas on web sites to approach that cover subjects like app development on iOS, Android, Windows, Mac, Bada and Playbook. Are there sites you know who would review it or give it a tweet / Facebook mention? The Internet is a big place and we only know so much of it.

Your ideas and help would be most welcome.

Cheers,

Rick & the AppGameKit Team!

Financial Director
TGC Team
bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 22:11 Edited at: 9th May 2012 22:13
Well done for putting the AppGameKit Forum on top of the DarkBasic one!

I would suggest to add a couple of more 2d commands and get AppGameKit on par with DBpro before starting to advertise on other dev forums.

I use 2 other sdks and as you well say right now AppGameKit is the youngest kid on the block. It needs to grow a bit more in 2d commands and stability before trying to go head to head with others.

I would suggest you tackle specialised platforms. For example Raspberry Pi is a British product aimed at education. It is Linux based and as we well know most Linux dev is done in C++ so it would fit well with AGK.

Another potential is to get in touch with Microsoft if you plan to do a Windows8phone AGK.
I use another HTML5 sdk and recently a microsoft representative got involved to pave things and help developers move their projects and bundle them into windows phone products. there is a lot of interest from microsoft to help developers push quality windows phone apps.

I won't mention PSvita & Playstation Suite, but this is going to be an important platform... at least, for all those capable of churning out quality game products.
Marl
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Posted: 9th May 2012 22:42
Success follows success.

Getting a chart topper on the various markets which is clearly credited to AKG will definitely generate interest.

Imagine if Angry Birds had been written with AppGameKit?

And it doesn't have to be something complicated.

Inner-active's site makes a big deal about 3D Paperball ( http://inner-active.com/content/184 ) - a very simple concept, yet they are claiming a trillion impressions.

1,000,000,000,000 is a big number and any percentage of that is still a big number.

Currently they are your only supported advertising platform, perhaps you should look at getting that mentioned on their site.
bitJericho
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Posted: 9th May 2012 22:59
Quote: "I won't mention PSvita & Playstation Suite, but this is going to be an important platform... at least, for all those capable of churning out quality game products"


I have a feeling Playstation is going to be very hampered in this up and coming console wave, but this is just my intuition which isn't always right

I'd say getting a mention on hackernews would give a nice bump in sales and exposure.

Impetus73
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Posted: 9th May 2012 23:11
The process of creating .APK and .IPA files from your bytecode file, is way to complicated for 99% of normal people, so I suggest making a tool to automatize this through wizzards.

Implementing new versions is too complicated also, with no guides on how to change the C:/Android folder after having updated AGK.

----------------
AGK user - novice
Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's, just started programming again with AGK.
Ancient Lady
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Posted: 9th May 2012 23:32
I've had to update my Android setup three times and it isn't fun. It helps to be comfortable doing things at the command line level (years of Unix/Linux work really helps as well).


I think if TGC gets their publishing service going, we may only need to build Tier1 stuff in one platform and then provide the bytecode and asset files to them. They'll do the work to create the other platforms.

That should take the headache out of it for folks who aren't professional programmers.

I wonder when we'll hear more about it? --HINT--HINT-- to TGC

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
bjadams
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Posted: 9th May 2012 23:49
Complicated for 99% of normal people?
Come on!!!!

I consider myself a programmer with very average knowledge and I find the guides to be pretty straight forward and well explained.

On Youtube you can find a lot of videos how to setup Xcode & geta round setting up the necessary Apple dev keys... done by 13 year old kids!!!
The Zoq2
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Posted: 10th May 2012 00:27
I agree android is pretty hard to compile to the first time, but once you have done it, it's just a matter of writing 2 lines in cygwin, refresh and clean the project and hitting "run". With the tutorials in the making, I believe the first parts can be allmost as easy as the other.
RickV
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Posted: 10th May 2012 00:37
This is all good stuff guys but I'm really looking for your ideas of where we can promote AppGameKit around the web. Where do you hang out online from time 2 time?

Rick

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Ashambles
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greenlig
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Posted: 10th May 2012 03:33
Hi Rick,

I think a big area that AppGameKit can appeal to is the indie crowd. As other people have mentioned, there are some commands lacking, such as primitive 2D geometry, but for the most part, it's a really good platform to quickly develop games on. Most people will use Flixel, Flashpunk, haXe, etc, but if you get enough exposure on places like TIGsource.com, Indiegames.com, etc, you would gain a valuable crowd.

AGK is easy to use, has a good feature-set including physics, sprites, particles, multiplayer, and deploys across a wide range of devices. What's not to love?

Greenlig

Your signature has been erased by a mod as it is far too big.
MobileCreator
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Posted: 10th May 2012 03:37
Hi Rick,

For the BlackBerry platform, which is investing very hard on 3rd party developers, you could try contact with the Developer Relations team. They are always interested on promoting things that can bring more developers for the platform. After the last week BB Jam in Orlando, there is a spreader excitement about the upcoming BB10, and the game market is very important on helping it.

They are organizing Road shows in several different countries and maybe you guys could try to get some space, making presetations on those events. I believe there will be a lot of them happening in Europe. This kind of face to face with developers are time consuming, but it could bring new developers for AGK. Don't forget the the AppGameKit Player is a pretty awesome way to develop and debug yor game

If participating on those events is not possible, I bet they would happily agree to post something about AppGameKit on their official blog, and also mention AppGameKit on twitter.

The "secret" is really show them how easy is develop for the Playbook and future BB10 smatphones usin AGK.

I understand iOS and Android are normally the first platform people think of, but unfortunately Apple and Google don't care about TGC, while RIM is really investing a lot on the development community.

I'm really guessing here, but it probably worth try it out. Alec Saunders, the Dev Relations VP has is email publicly available. You could tru contact him directly...

Cheers

Paulo

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Paulo
http://www.mobilecreators.com
xGEKKOx
AGK Master
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Posted: 10th May 2012 03:45 Edited at: 10th May 2012 03:46
Well, maybe some of you may not agree with me, but i think that AppGameKit must focus on iOS.
The possibility to use functions like the ones i done in my personal SDK->AGK are very useful.
I mixed it with obj c and for me now is really simple to do :
- BSD Sockets
- Complete support for GameCenter (Leaderboard, Achievements, Multiplayer)
- Buttons on touch and buttons by AppGameKit (only 12)
- Auto Scale for different resolutions with rotation and auto calculation
- Audio Session mixed with the AppGameKit HandleSound to Record and Play
and many others functions....

What we need to get it to a upper level, is some functions that let we are able to do Utilities.
Some buttons, table, lists, and much more UI Objects that i coded manually and in generic way to reuse every time i need.

Well, you can add some old DarkBasic functions like the Matrix for tiling and a JSON and XML parser, just like the one in PHP.
I'm using my class to use JSON and XML, but, as the AppGameKit must be an easy software for all coders level, must have those functionalities already inside.



iPhone/iPad Games/Apps : Street Karate Fighter - 90s VideoPokers Simulator - Ball VS Brick - CB RadioBox - Artic
bjadams
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Posted: 10th May 2012 11:04
Gekko, I would be interested to know more about the GameCenter support you implemented in T2.
kamac
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Posted: 10th May 2012 14:34 Edited at: 10th May 2012 14:37
Quote: "Here's some sites I frequent that cover indie gaming and indie RPGs (my favorite genre):

http://www.gamedev.net
http://www.indiegamemag.com/http://www.tigsource.com
http://www.diygamer.com/
http://www.rpgwatch.com/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/
http://indierpgs.com/
http://www.gamerswithjobs.com/"


Also, http://www.tigsource.com.

Quote: "Well, maybe some of you may not agree with me, but i think that AppGameKit must focus on iOS."


Getting one powerful isn't too good way, because AppGameKit is for "every" platform. I would suggest to add more platform-dependant functions.
In C++, if we want to make one project which compiles for everything, we'd do:





Follow me on twitter! @kamac496
xGEKKOx
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Posted: 10th May 2012 15:22
Hi kamac, yes sorry, maybe i explained bad cause for my english.
I correct myself : Must focus more on iOS.
I say this because the market statistics are clear on internet.
Anyway, AppGameKit now is like a balance, but now this balance is going too down to the Android side.

Better to balance all. That's all.
Sometimes when i post nobody answer (except someone), as seems nobody use xcode and mac and tier 2.

For BjAdams:
Of course BJ, much of the things you found online to integrate apple's functions are wrong or not totally right. I think they write the codes in a way the beginners will never understand.
But i discovered that the template method of AppGameKit + OBJ C + C++ is really great and is not really needed to implement all the things they say. Sometimes you need 3 lines to do what they do in 200 lines.

I will be always happy to help all.

iPhone/iPad Games/Apps : Street Karate Fighter - 90s VideoPokers Simulator - Ball VS Brick - CB RadioBox - Artic
bjadams
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Posted: 10th May 2012 15:57
Gekko, would love to see what you did with Gamecenter. Can you maybe post some example?

As you said I found a lot if information on Gamecenter but i don't like 200 lines of complex code if it can be done in 5 lines!!!
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 10th May 2012 22:41
Quote: "This is all good stuff guys but I'm really looking for your ideas of where we can promote AppGameKit around the web. Where do you hang out online from time 2 time?

Rick"

Wouldt it be really simple with an game making competition?
Have some nice prizes and upload the top five winners as free apps in tgcs name with no adds on all supported platforms markets.
Will get the biggest downloads and agk as an app maker will get attention from other developers.

Basicly have rules that state that tgc are free to use the entrys in there marketing about agk.

With some nice prizes will there be alot of talent entering with cool apps
Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 10th May 2012 23:59
Penny Arcade has a huge following of gamers, and I would guess that a lot of them would like to make their own.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th May 2012 01:21
It would be handy if AppGameKit had a built in video renderer like FRAPS. So you make a game, record it, and it links to Youtube automatically. Then it embeds an AppGameKit logo in the video corner. So when folks make games they make videos, and make instant adverts for AppGameKit, and saves them looking for FRAPS.

xGEKKOx
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Posted: 11th May 2012 02:39
Ok BJ i will open a new post in the iOS forum.

iPhone/iPad Games/Apps : Street Karate Fighter - 90s VideoPokers Simulator - Ball VS Brick - CB RadioBox - Artic
DVader
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Posted: 11th May 2012 05:47
@ Pincho, video playback support would be a start. I think most other functions are covered 2D wise now, but no video playback support, or recording (on cams) as yet, just still picture support which is nifty the first few times you use it. I doubt a built in recorder would be high on the priorities list at the moment, or in any immediate future. There is too much work on other platforms and such to be done I would imagine.

I am not really sure what TGC could do to improve interest in AppGameKit, besides the obvious.

Releasing a fair chunk of video tutorials and demo's onto youtube and other popular video sites. Plus any good tutoral sites like tizag.com. There hasn't been much activity in that area since the release. The more places that have stuff about AppGameKit on, the more people will take an interest in trying it. Look for popular videos on game making, and recreate them for AGK. Something like a simple Angry birds clone might be a good start, or any other popular game type AppGameKit can reproduce well. How long would it take Mr. Bamber to knock a basic game out, while occasionally pausing and explaining the process? Not that long I imagine

A top selling game would be good!

The games for schools idea seemed good, you seem to concentrate on a low age group though. I could be wrong of course, I can only say from newsletter reports and from looking at the games made. Perhaps GCSE or college students could be a better option?

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 11th May 2012 10:12
It's not just video recording, it's free advertising worth thousands of pounds. With AppGameKit embedded in the videos on Youtube you are taking advantage of a commodity in a way that pulls in the customers like no other commodity has been used in the past. Rollercoaster Tycoon 3 had a video recorder built into it, and the theme parks were easily put on Youtube. Each theme park could sell another Rollercoaster Tycoon 3. Imagine thousands of Youtube videos of games, all with AppGameKit in the corner. Each video pulls in an AppGameKit customer. It should have top priority, as its programming pays TGC tens of thousands of pounds. At the moment, if you use FRAPS there is no AppGameKit embedded in the video, so the game looks good, but the viewers are more interested in the game than making a game like it.

DVader
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Posted: 11th May 2012 19:57
Well if TGC want branded video's they could release some, as I suggested above. I'm not sure having an auto recorder built in would be that useful. You also have to remember RT3 is a game, not a game making tool, and so videos of crashes and such may encourage people to buy the game. Videos of a game made in AppGameKit really has little to do with the process of making it, and aren't likely to stir games making interest really unless it already exists within them. Example videos of making games are needed to encourage people to make games. Watching a game video normally just makes the person want to play the game, if it's any good.
I'm not sure if it would take them too much time for it to be worthwhile, when they have plenty to do to get AppGameKit more complete. Video support is needed for one. And before some of you say video support is useless on a phone, think again. If you want to make apps rather than games, video support is very useful. I was amazed it wasn't in from day one. How many PC games include no video at all? With online video streaming now, any decent phone dev kit should include it. Simple things like this could also help stop people from taking it up.

fallen one
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Posted: 12th May 2012 08:13 Edited at: 12th May 2012 08:15
I have an idea for you, sell AppGameKit Templates
I buy these for gamesalad,

http://marketplace.gamesalad.com/
http://www.deepblueapps.com/Deep_Blue_Ideas_Ltd./Home.html

I have no problem about spending decent money on them, they are a great way to learn a new program. The easiest form of game design is modding, many games designers making commercial games today started from the mod community, opening up other peoples maps was a great way to learn level design, first one may just re texture a level, then move up to adapting a level, then to finally making a complete level of your own. Adapting game assets 'modding' helped many people get a foot in the games industry. In fact id say thats where most artists started.

Why not do this with AppGameKit, sell templates, just like gamesalad engine games do, these could be part games, functions etc, or even full games.

AGK has recently been reduced in price, £33 or so, I spent that yesterday just on a simple gamesalad template, AppGameKit has MANY more man hours put into it than that game template, yet the cost is the same!

I think selling templates for AppGameKit could greatly extend its profitability, and its user base. Having the code to games, or functions in games, with nice neat commenting on the code, would be a great way to help learning, and offer fast entry into initial developer releases, you could get up and running with your first game very quickly, which would then encourage the user to stay with the program, and create better chances of repeat custom.


Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 12th May 2012 10:06
I must say that fallen one have an good point
The best way to get newbies intrested.
I started this way with dark basic pro
Simply modded another persons code where he helped me alot.
Impetus73
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Posted: 12th May 2012 11:06
I agree, access to code, is access to knowledge. I have seen that almost everyone is programming the same thing differently, noone seems to know how other people code. And so you get code that's almost impossible to read for others. There is allways a better way to do what you did, so getting access to code is golden, to get better programming skills.

----------------
AGK user - novice
Did Amiga / AMOS programming in the 90's, just started programming again with AGK.
DVader
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Posted: 13th May 2012 20:56
Well, I don't agree. It is basically the same thing as I said with tutorials, but just handing it people on a plate. Personally, I think you learn very little from using other peoples code (especially entire games). It is very easy for people to treat it like a jigsaw, and have no real clue how it all actually works at the end.

I have met so called web gurus for instance who's idea of coding is get it from off the web, copy paste and your done. It may be fast, but it is just not coding. It's copying and modifying. It is

Of course I have no problems with the concept of TGC selling something like that for revenue. But if you think that there is only one way to program, and every game has one way to be coded, you are sadly mistaken. Trying your own ideas is a good thing, how do you think various techniques have developed over the years? By people trying new ideas to do the same thing.

There are books, tutorials and video's all around us now. With all that knowledge easy to find, (try it back in 1980!), people have it more than easy as far as getting hold of the basic info needed. The thought of people changing a few graphics, text and tweaking a couple of variables and calling it their game horrifies me! People are just too impatient these days.

Oops, I didn't mean to have another long post. I just think if you want to learn to program, taking other peoples entire code can actually hinder you. Learn how to code from small examples of techniques, and implement them into your projects. It may be slow, but you will be a better programmer at the end of it.
If you just want to make apps and have no interest in advancing your programming skills, templates are a good head start. Still it is an idea, and I'm sure lot's of people disagree with me. Obviously people can learn from an complete template, just are less likely to do so. I would imagine most people wanting templates, want them to avoid that programming in the first place. Again, this is fine, we bought AppGameKit because it saves us time on a lot of things that would be hard to produce ourselves anyway.

I personally enjoy the challenge of trying to figure out a way to do things myself from scratch. If I get stuck completely, then I may have a look about for some pointers or clues.

On the original question, as I have somewhat veered off course here. I noticed someone mention the Raspberry Pi. I think making ties with those guys now could be a good move. The programming language available as standard on there looks pretty average. Imagine if you could get AppGameKit on it so people can use it to develop for phones on their little £30 computer! Plus, they are trying to push the device to schools, so you could get a lot of people trying AppGameKit if the free version was included.

KareDev
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Posted: 15th May 2012 18:54
Personally, I think the following points are a must for AGK:

>> Continued 2D focus. There are plenty of SDK's out there that are for 3D titles, however, AppGameKit is by far the easiest 2D-focused SDK I've tried. After one evening with the trial I had already decided to obtain the full version, compared to many others that I rejected. Other toolsets such as Unity and Unreal are already running away with 3D on iOS, and whilst AppGameKit could go in this direction, I think you might find 2D more lucrative in the short and middle terms.

>> Game Center support. This is just a must, really. Customers expect it of iOS titles.

>> Twitter support. The ability to tie into the iOS 5 in-built Twitter functionality to post tweets, both text and images.

These are the main things from where I'm standing.
DVader
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Posted: 15th May 2012 20:26
KareDev, I'm unsure yet about tweets. I have managed to send facebook wall messages though. Tweet is my next thing to look at. The new HTTP commands are quite useful you know!
I have tried Unity, I did a 3D snake game in it I believe (some tutorial), but didn't much like coding with it. I did like the HTML browser support though. I got a 3D driving demo and put it on a test web site at the time, awesome! This was when it was first released, so it may be better now, but the same programming language will still be there
With AppGameKit I loved the language straight away, and could dive in without the need of following tutorials of any kind, the bliss!

xCept
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Posted: 15th May 2012 23:37
Quote: ">> Game Center support. This is just a must, really. Customers expect it of iOS titles."


While I appreciate TGC's goal of creating a "write once deploy everywhere" platform whereby Tier 1 is designed to support only cross-platform compatible features, I also agree with your statement.

An iOS targeted game without the "Game Center" icon and integrated high score functionality will be missing out on a lot of free publicity that Game Center games can achieve (e.g., iTunes has specific filters to only show Game Center apps, and it certainly saves the hassle of creating a custom score and account system). Using a cross-platform scoring system like OpenFeint, although an improvement over none, will still not achieve the same recognition in iTunes. In app purchases are also often billed as a must have in today's game app market.

In reality, many users still only release their AppGameKit products to a single platform. As such, it would be a great incentive if TGC offered platform-specific commands and functionality so that those wishing to implement such features can--with the understanding that such capabilities won't be available on other devices. I would love to program in Tier 1, but without the ability of using Game Center etc. on iOS my options are either to omit such features or use Tier 2.

As far as promotion, unfortunately I don't frequent any other sites and am not sure what else to say.
LeeBamber
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Posted: 15th May 2012 23:54
We're indeed fortunately to have T2 on hand for those of you who want to use proprietary iOS features, and you can even write your app in T1 byte code and then augment the interpreter project with your Game Centre additions by using the 'dummy sprite visibility' trick to communicate feature switches between T1 and T2. I do agree having everything in T1 would be make things a lot easier, but we'd also steal time away from making T1 even more exciting for the other 5-10 platforms we aim to support. We're also targeting AppGameKit for the long term, so five years from now, when Android covers nine tenths of the earth's surface, we won't be lumbered with 50 iOS commands no-one needs any more, but we will have cool set of general commands that apply equally well to whatever platform exists a decade from now. Over the years (and we've coded in most of them), we find a lot of commonalities popping up when someone wants to create an app, and they are rather simple creatures too, such as some sprites, sound sounds, some input methods and the continual importance of performance, stability and compatibility year after year. This is really our focus for AppGameKit T1, ensuring the app you create in 2012 can still be enjoyed in 2025 We provide AppGameKit T2 so you can leapfrog this slow march into the future, and add the features you might get tommorow, today. I hope all this makes sense, and that most of you agree with our direction.

I think there is certainly room though for some good tutorials and tricks we know to show you how you can easily get Game Centre enabled in your T1 app, running and monetising on the App Store, using some clever T2 tweaking Of course if a member of the community wants to beat us to it, I'm sure we can reward that person with something nice.

I drink tea, and in my spare time I write software.
bjadams
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Posted: 16th May 2012 00:16
In few words we will not be seeing any iOS only commands in AGK
LeeBamber
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Posted: 16th May 2012 00:21
Never say never Remember I am part of a small team of very passionate developers, and I am sure a few of them will want a few iOS commands in there at some point. My best prediction, watch this space!

I drink tea, and in my spare time I write software.
bjadams
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Posted: 16th May 2012 00:22


If you can post some guides how to implement some ios specific features in T2, then we could have a good head start!!!
MobileCreator
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Posted: 16th May 2012 06:07
Since the talk went through this path, I'd like to repeat something I've said months ago.

I don't know the Tier 1 internals, but I believe TGC should really invest time to make Tier 1 Basic extensible.

I do believe Tier 2 is nice, but it is not for everybody. A lot of people are very capable of making amazing games using basic, but some of them will struggle to do the same using C++. That is unquestionable, in my opinion.

I could say that create extensions for Tier 1 is hard because it is not a target to a single platform, like Dark Basic and the DLLs. I agree with that, but I think we have a great example from Adobe and its Native Extensions for Flash and Air. With that architecture, Adobe could focus its efforts in the core of Flash, leaving the platform specifics for the developer to solve. And the developers could get what they need faster, and they don't need to wait for Adobe to make it for them.

Adobe's native extension is a combination of native code (DLL's and shared objects) and ActionScript code that calls the native code. It is really the same idea of the DLL on Windows, but this time, there is an action script library that interfaces the application with the native code.

I really think that TGC would make Tier 1 really be relevant if they add this capability. Doing that, TGC would be free to make 3D support, tween effects, and all core functionality that AppGameKit deserves.

The problem of TGC trying to do everything, like the Advert commands is that they cannot do everything fast enough (no company can), and the worst in my view: who know if in 1-2 years the advert commands turned obsolete, or gamecenter is not gamecenter anymore, or something else shows up? Following this path will turn AppGameKit in a bloatware of commands, when actually it could have a defined core and rely on native extensions to do the specifics.




Cheers

Paulo

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Paulo
http://www.mobilecreators.com
LeeBamber
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Posted: 16th May 2012 15:39
An interesting suggestion. Our initial reaction was that no-one would go near a plug-in architecture if they knew they had to support 8 different platforms across three different languages It sounds like what you are proposing is that we actually extend the RAW command set, so anyone can create AppGameKit commands that plug into the language, but are only active for the platforms it supports (i.e. someone can write some Game Centre commands for iOS while someone else can write some commands for controlling a robot arm which might support Windows and Mac, but not mobile devices). We would probably use something like Google Code SVN to co-ordinate and to a large extent automate the build process, so my question to the community is whether this would lead to anarchy with lots of commands out there that 'just don't work' on the platform you wanted them for, or you see it as an opportunity to have specific platform support of features relevant today, even if they are through the RAW commands and platform specific.

I drink tea, and in my spare time I write software.
MobileCreator
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Posted: 16th May 2012 17:01 Edited at: 16th May 2012 17:01
Lee,

that's the idea. Making an AppGameKit plugin architecture would help extend the language where it is necessary at that particular point.

To avoid rogue broken commands, the developer would have to select/load the extensions he wants to use, and he could verify if that set of commands are reliable, since the source code is available. If there is no need for Advert commands (as an example), that native extension doesn't need to be selected/loaded.

This link gives a good idea how Adobe is handling it: http://www.adobe.com/devnet/air/native-extensions-for-air.html. This one (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/air/articles/extending-air.html) is particularly interesting.

So, talking hypothetically, the developer would have to create a native extension using the OS native language to create the DLL/Shared Object that would be used by Tier 1 code. The core Basic commands for that would allow the user of the native extension to check if it is supported, so let's say:


if (PlugIn_isSupported("Plugin_public_name"))
GameCenter_Initialize()
GameCenter_DoSomething()
...
endif

It seems to me that the architecture would be similar to what is done on DarkBasic (I've never seen it, to be honest), but with the addition of a packaging thing that helps the code to selected the right library file depends on what OS you're.

Another interesting advantage of that (for TGC) is that if you have someone making a native extension that supports all supported OSes, you could make it a product addon and sell it. Good for you, good for the developer.

Cheers

Paulo















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Paulo
http://www.mobilecreators.com
baxslash
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Posted: 16th May 2012 17:21
I like the idea of being able to load dll's or other plugins using some simple commands like the dll loading in DBPro. That could be very useful and save you guys some work.

You might get some really nicely written plugins to sell on the TGC site like you get from the DBPro community but you'd have to be explicit about which platforms the commands work on.

JimHawkins
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Posted: 17th May 2012 00:03
Last time I looked, all iOS apps must be totally self-contained. Producing library files would be fine apart from iOS, therefore. That would imply that all plugins would have to be amenable to binding into the final file. This could be a headache for Paul and Lee.

To do this properly would, I think, require an External or Import statement. The function signatures would then have be written in a Tier-1 friendly way. The Basic itself should remain as clean and agnostic as possible.

A good example of this Lua.

I totally agree with this in principle, but implementation would need some very careful design decisions. It would not enhance AGK's reputation if thrown-together plugins crashed here and there.

-- Jim
MikeHart
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Posted: 17th May 2012 23:00
Seriously, before thinking about enhancing AppGameKit even more, I would think about quality first. Means keep your players uptodate and distribute them accordingly. After being away from AppGameKit for some time I thought I'll give it a try. But no OSX player that I could find (Store or from the 1.074 installation) works. The android player works but the rest, meh!

And I am surprised that you still didn't got this right. Tools like GM Studio and Gideros have found perfect solutions to test apps on the fly on the devices. So it is absolutely doable. The command set of AppGameKit is good, but this device testing stuff shouldn't be so hard for a user. It should simply work. So please concentrate on this first.
bjadams
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Posted: 18th May 2012 00:25
Mikehart, Gideros looks interesting, this one had escaped from my radar when checking out sdks.
Paul Johnston
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Posted: 18th May 2012 03:07
I took a look at Gideros and according to its installation guide http://giderosmobile.com/DevCenter/index.php/Installing_Gideros_Studio it has exactly the same requirements as us for iOS deployment. Namely a Mac, XCode, and an Apple developer account.

If we knew of a way to get the AppGameKit Player onto customers' iPhones without breaking Apples terms of service we would gladly do it.
Cor
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Posted: 18th May 2012 05:28
I think plugin support would be nice. I would gladly pay for a tier 1 plugin with in app purchases for ios.
MikeHart
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Posted: 18th May 2012 14:09
Quote: "If we knew of a way to get the AppGameKit Player onto customers' iPhones without breaking Apples terms of service we would gladly do it."


Just provide uptodate player projects for IOS and OSX with every version so we can easily compile and install them ourself. If someone wants to create for IOS/OSX, this person should know how to compile/sign and transfer an app to the device.
That is how Gideros does it. Gm Studio does something similar.

Am I missing something and the player projects are located in the folder structure?
bjadams
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Posted: 18th May 2012 14:45
Player projects are not there anymore, at least in the zip installer
MobileCreator
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Posted: 18th May 2012 15:45
As far I could see, this Gideros supports iOS and Android only. It probably makes it easier for them, but it is too limited (even being the two big players) for me.

Quote: "If we knew of a way to get the AppGameKit Player onto customers' iPhones without breaking Apples terms of service we would gladly do it."


Paul, you should buy and look at a software called Codea for the iPad - In a certain way, it is similar to what AppGameKit does, but only for iOS. The big difference is that they provide a project editor directly into the iPad, so you can do all your development without a computer - but you can also load external source code using iTunes (not sure about over wifi). I'm not suggesting that you do exactly the same, but how about changing the AppGameKit player a little bit, including a very basic text editor, and a way to add source code and assets, and then run from there?

I know it is not even close to the AppGameKit player experience, but at least you will make possible to developers without a Mac, or Apple developer license to actually test the game on the device. All that without breaking Apple's terms. If Codea is there for ages, I doubt you would have problems...

Cheers

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Paulo
http://www.mobilecreators.com
bjadams
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Posted: 18th May 2012 16:37
There is no guarantee that if Codea made it to the App store, another similar app will. Anything Apple is always high risk of being rejected.
MobileCreator
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Posted: 18th May 2012 16:49
Well, I agree that there is no guarantee, but you have a better shot if similar apps are already available. The worst that could happen is Apple taking the other app out as well


Cheers

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Paulo
http://www.mobilecreators.com
Paul Johnston
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Posted: 18th May 2012 17:59
Quote: "Am I missing something and the player projects are located in the folder structure?"


All the code to compile the AppGameKit player apps should be in the AGK\IDE\apps folder.

Quote: "Paul, you should buy and look at a software called Codea for the iPad ... The big difference is that they provide a project editor directly into the iPad"


That's an interesting way of getting around the problem and I think it is as close as you can get to the guidelines without being rejected. The actual terms and conditions state that "Interpreted code may only be used in an Application if all scripts, code and interpreters are packaged in the Application and not downloaded."

Although writing a iPad IDE would be a significant change to AppGameKit and not something we could do quickly.

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