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Geek Culture / music copyright - different lyrics to the same melody?

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fallen one
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Posted: 14th May 2012 11:17 Edited at: 14th May 2012 11:18
Anyone know legally where this stands? can we use the same tune, and change the words, in my case its for a comedy game, satire is listed as fair use in copyrights, but comedy could be subjective, whats funny to me, may not be funny to someone else, especially in games, which I could imagine is greyer, unlike the much more established mediums like TV and film, What is comedy in those mediums is more established. Ill also note the original performer has been dead 35 years, and I have a singer who can impersonate the artists voice.

If the musician is playing by ear, they will not be able to produce the song 100%, but as they are playing an impression of what they think that song sounds like, the 'tune' would be like the original, where does the law stand on these matters.


Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th May 2012 11:52 Edited at: 14th May 2012 12:33
I have a similar question. I play known songs on my keyboard but alter them a bit. I wonder what the copyright says about that? When you watch the X factor everyone is making a known song in their own style, nobody seems to worry about copyright. Same with Karaoke.

I am making a game with heavy metal tracks recreated in a new style.

Here is an example of a track that I have recreated in my own style...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5q6cPDTkhp4&feature=youtu.be

You see, that is like the Dr Who theme, but it also is not much like the Dr Who theme. So that's what I am doing with my heavy metal music as well. I also watch adverts on TV that are similar to known songs. There is one a lot like Seal 'Kiss from a Rose'.

Here's a bit of a blog site about it...
http://www.thatsongsoundslike.com/what-are-people-saying/

More here...
http://www.thatsongsoundslike.com/

If you scroll down to....
MC Hammer vs. Rick James

...then obviously using samples from a track is illegal. So does this clear up that not using samples is OK?

Then you have films like Sucker Punch, which recreate songs in their own way. My new project is actually very similar to Sucker Punch in its style.

Kezzla
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Posted: 14th May 2012 13:07
I'm not a music lawyer, but I heard from a sound lecturer that if the song is altered by more than 10 percent then you can claim it as original. that would be the melody, words, or composition.

but then there is men at work, who just had a small section of kookaburra sits in the old gum tree in half of one of their riffs. they were successfully done for copyright and now have to pay royalties.

I think if it blatantly sounds like something else then you are pushing it.

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
mr Handy
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Posted: 14th May 2012 13:54 Edited at: 14th May 2012 17:29
{joke}Of course melody is not copyrighted to composer, no! Only lyrics is copyrighted to writer, yes.{/joke}

The answer to
Quote: "can we use the same tune, and change the words"

is no.

Also, karaoke is licensed as karaoke (captain obvious to the resque!). Also song could be licensed only for home use, radio translation, film.

There is fuuny thing with anime. Some anime titles shown in USA was with it's own opening/ending songs! Just because Japanese owners of this songs are holders of copyright, that is separate from anime, not agreed.

---
But if you want to use melody for parody song or something similar (like play mario tune on marimba) - in my opinion you can.

grammar edit

«It's the Shader, shader me this, shader me that»
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 14th May 2012 16:53 Edited at: 14th May 2012 16:56
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th May 2012 17:10
That example is very strange, because the two songs are clearly not the same...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqOIdtKZTG4

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th May 2012 17:14
Here's a selection of Led Zeppelin versions...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiiY4ciKFQA&feature=related

rolfy
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Posted: 14th May 2012 21:04 Edited at: 14th May 2012 21:43
Quote: "I heard from a sound lecturer that if the song is altered by more than 10 percent then you can claim it as original"

Its actually over 10 percent of a music piece to put you on shaky ground,only less than 10 percent similar is not accepted as copying, so your song would need to be 90 percent altered. Using actual recordings ie. sampling is not acceptable without permission in this case as the recording itself is covered by mechanical copyright

Parody is recognized as a form of fair use, even if the parody is designed to sound like the original. In the U.S., the parody exemption comes from the First Amendment guarantee of Freedom of Speech.
I would reckon the same applies in EU where you have always had comedy shows parody songs with impunity.


Quote: "I play known songs on my keyboard but alter them a bit. I wonder what the copyright says about that? When you watch the X factor everyone is making a known song in their own style, nobody seems to worry about copyright. Same with Karaoke."

Such shows as the Xfactor or even karaoke have their own licenses, you might even find that karaoke is covered by the venues license, bars and clubs pay a license fee for public performance.
Intent is a large part of music copyright infringement, if you record and release these songs commercially your on shaky ground, if you only intend to perform them live your fine. If you expect to sell less than 3000 units or so you could look into licensing each of them, it only costs around 15 bucks per song for this kind of license.

As for Men at Work what they had copied was the melody of the flute interlude on the recording.

I remember David Bowie and the Sweet controversy for ripping the riff from Jean Genie which I believe Bowie took in good humour, if he had wanted to sue he would most likely have won hands down, thing is, both songs sat in the top ten with The Sweet at number one.

Awesome! Its one of those threads.
fallen one
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Posted: 14th May 2012 21:44 Edited at: 14th May 2012 21:56
I am not sure parody is allowed in the UK, from wikipedia below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parody

Quote: "United Kingdom

Under existing copyright legislation (principally the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988), "There is currently no exception which covers the creation of parodies, caricatures or pastiches".[25] Parodies of works protected by copyright require the consent or permission of the copyright owner, unless they fall under existing fair use/fair dealing exceptions:

the part of the underlying work is not "substantial"
the use of the underlying work falls within the fair dealing exception for "criticism, review and news reporting"
enforcement of copyright is contrary to the public interest.[25]

In 2006 the Gowers Review of Intellectual Property recommended that the UK should "create an exception to copyright for the purpose of caricature, parody or pastiche by 2008".[26] Following the first stage of a two-part public consultation, the Intellectual Property Office reported that the information received "was not sufficient to persuade us that the advantages of a new parody exception were sufficient to override the disadvantages to the creators and owners of the underlying work. There is therefore no proposal to change the current approach to parody, caricature and pastiche in the UK.""


Not sure what the difference between parody and Satire is in terms of copyright they seem very alike to me.


Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 14th May 2012 21:47
There is always a point where you can't tell if something is copied or not. Some adverts use voiceovers by sound-alikes. It gets very complicated.

rolfy
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Posted: 14th May 2012 22:31 Edited at: 14th May 2012 23:05
Since I have seen many, many songs parodied by the likes of Wood and Walters (they would end every show with one) maybe its just a case of being with the BBC or whatever, they had the license to do so, or maybe its a case of artists feeling the profile is raised for their work. It could even be that artists dont want to appear mean or petty by objecting to it, or simply that its just acceptable.

I cant say with any certainty how this would affect your case, it appears on the surface that you want to sell your game or whatever with this content, your not breaching mechanical copyright by doing your own recordings, its not a major part of your sold item, and your satirizing the songs. You may be covered if the original artist is a US citizen and the songs are under US copyright wherever else you are in the world.

You might need to ask yourself how many units do you expect to sell? and how much attention this will draw. If unsure you need to seek proper legal advise, there are no copyright lawyers around here far as I now.

Awesome! Its one of those threads.
Fallout
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Posted: 15th May 2012 00:40
As a dnb fan, I've listened to a lot of tracks that are remixes or sample from professional tracks. These songs are sold and make the artist money and are in blatant infringement of copyright. These guys never get sued or pay royalties though. They're too small time really, so they coast under the radar. But they do run the risk.

The conclusion I draw from that is, any copying/sampling, mimicking melodies, reusing lyrics etc. is all potentially copyright infringement. What it comes down to isn't whether it is copyright or not; it's down to whether someone sues you or not and wins.

If there's any chance what you're doing will reach a very wide audience or have significant money involved, don't risk it.

mr Handy
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Posted: 15th May 2012 08:41
Quote: "As a dnb fan, I've listened to a lot of tracks "


I think they managed with the license stuff without shouting bout it.

«It's the Shader, shader me this, shader me that»
Kezzla
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Posted: 15th May 2012 09:04
@rolfy - what's your musical background? you seem more clued on to the business side than most i've met. just curious.

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
rolfy
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Posted: 15th May 2012 12:02 Edited at: 15th May 2012 12:29
Its a bit of a mixed bag really, primarily I have worked as an artist most of my adult life. I have many friends in the music business among them all the guys in Chill FM, Ian McCulloch (Echo and The Bunneymen), the Delgado's, Jim Beattie (Primal Scream) etc.
Been playing guitar since twelve and built my own wee home studio some 12-15 years ago, played in a few live bands but haven't ever released anything commercially, music is mostly a hobby and quite frankly my music sucks, I did do a music business course back in 2001.
I even did stage lighting for a few years, did Faithless, Iggy Pop, BRMC, Ian Brown...you name it. I have been in business in one sense or another for over thirty years now but recent years have seen a decline in my commitment to it. Particularly since moving to the States three years ago, I'm still trying to build up something viable here.
When I think about it I have had a very fortunate life with some of the people I have met being involved in the arts.
You can get a small taste of some stuff from over the years, both music and art, by checking out my website.
rolfy site.
Paintings are best viewed on the HTML site, its an old site now and when creating it I had to keep the Flash stuff fairly small as bandwidth wasn't too great for streaming at the time. There's not a great deal on it as I didn't always keep a record of everything, I really should try to update it sometime but you'll get the gist.

Edit* I should also count among my musical friends our very own s4real, he produces professionally.

Awesome! Its one of those threads.
Slow Programmer
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Posted: 16th May 2012 20:26
This may help on USA laws. Unsure about other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_work

There are two kinds of computer users. Those that use Macs and those that wish they did.

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