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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Microsoft tablet

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 13:37
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Microsoft are holding a news conference at 22:30 GMT tonight (June 18th) at which they are strongly rumoured to be announcing a range of Microsoft tablets. This would be the first time they have produced computer hardware.

The news conference will be streamed on the Internet. I don't have a link yet.

Given MS's financial clout, and the fact that this is obviously a direct challenge to the iPad hegemony, it should be a great opportunity for app developers.

Also rumoured is Xbox 360 compatibility and an interface to Xbox Live - in which case XNA should be high AGK's priority list.

-- Jim
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kamac
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 13:41
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Agreed. Althrought, if AppGameKit is to be run on that tablet, it will probably need an abstraction. Yet, it is not certain as, for example, windows supports OpenGL... We'll see. It would be great if not only DirectX is supported for their tablet. But time will show...

It is quite painful to make an abstraction at this point and then keep on updating it. Would slow down AGK's development even further. Even now Lee and Paul & others (if there are any other TGC programmers working on AGK) must think of supporting all the other platforms. Converting commands for them is a pain too.

Fingers crossed.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 14:23
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From my reading of recent forums, the presence of OpenGL in Windows 8 ARM builds may be problematic.

-- Jim
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MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 14:39
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Someone find a link fast!!!

PS.
Thanks for the heads up!

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 14:55
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Latest is that the URL will be announced at 18:00 GMT

I don't think XNA would be a big problem for AGK. TGC understand DX perfectly - that's what DB Pro uses.

Personally (and I stress PERSONALLY) I would be delighted for this to succeed, and abandon the Android mess completely! Not that I love MS - I've just starting hating Android more!

-- Jim
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MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 15:04
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Quote: "Personally (and I stress PERSONALLY) I would be delighted for this to succeed, and abandon the Android mess completely! Not that I love MS - I've just starting hating Android more!"


I already stopped using Gmail last year >.< and my next device purchase is likely a Win8 tablet not an android device... I have a Galaxy SII and I think it is more than enough... but I need a tablet device soon... and in no way mad enough to get a fruit cake...

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bjadams
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 15:54
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JimHawkins, agree with you 100%
I never bothered with Android myself, I just compiled my project to make sure it works, but never bothered to release anything. too many screen sizes and different hardware specs to support.

I think TGC are working on AppGameKit WindowsMobile which will support C# and XNA, so most probably the Win8 Tablet will be supported too within that version of AGK
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Rich Dersheimer
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 15:58
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How cool would it be to have AppGameKit on the tablet, developing an app for that tablet?

Very cool, I think!

Some days, the bear will eat you.
Some days, you'll eat the bear.
Today, I'm eating the bear!
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polomint
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 17:00
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I have a feeling that TGC are going to end up spreading themselves too thin, I'm still waiting on decent Playbook support of the new features. We're up to 1076(?) and still the Playbook hasn't been updated, I *only* bought AppGameKit to write PB apps,

Blackberry App Development & ZX Spectrum Game Development.
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basjak
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 17:34
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I can't wait for windows 8 tablets. my recent research suggested that win 8 tablets will support both win 7 and xp plus mobile programmers as well as windows programmers. which means we should not worry much as AppGameKit and DBpro will not be harmed.

my friend already bought win 7 tablet pc. and both AppGameKit and DBpro were easily supported.

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basjak
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 17:47
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link:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=197909&b=41

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 17:50
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basjak, that link just comes right back to this thread.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 18:01
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I think tgc should wait and see how the sales goes.
I dont belive that this will be a blockbuster.
World media havent bin to hyped about it actually.

Ipad is solid and have an huge user base and they will not buy a windows pad.

Windows mobile sales are pretty poor compared to the others.

To early to talk about support i belive.
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Mobiius
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 18:59
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I'd kill something to get a decent windows tablet. The only reason iPoo is so popular is because there isn't an affordable, decent specced windows tablet. People know and love windows (which is why it's still hugely used on almost every PC in the world) and if a proper windows tablet was released before iPad then the iPad would be no where near as popular.

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
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bitJericho
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 19:51
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The problem isn't x86 based tablets, but arm based tablets. DBP and AppGameKit will not run on arm based hardware.

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basjak
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 21:02
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@ancient lady:

sorry this is the link again.

http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/tablets/windows-8-tablets-release-date-specs-and-prices-916134

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Matneee
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 21:18
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Quote: "How cool would it be to have AppGameKit on the tablet, developing an app for that tablet?"


As it happens I've recently been playing about with the Esenthal Engine because it lets you do just that

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.esenthel.editor

The way I see it it'll always be preferable to do the grunt work on whichever PC you usually use, but I've got to say I was really impressed by the amount it let me do when I was travelling about.

I should also add that the existence of such a tablet editor
very nearly swayed me into stumping up hard cash for the SDK - when I was recently looking for something to prototype a few ideas in it made it look very appealing despite what I considered some other significant shortcomings.

It's the kind of application that would carry huge weight in my choices.
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 21:28
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Thank you.

I don't think I'll be in any rush whatsoever to get a Windows tablet. The few images I've seen make it look big and clunky compared to the iPad.

I only got my iPad a few months back for testing AppGameKit apps alongside my iPod Touch (purchased for 'iPhone' testing).

I've been a Windows user for many years, but I'm not much impressed with Windows 8 and am not willing to shell out the bucks for a new desktop OS that means most of my existing software might just be obsolete. Will it support Office 2010 apps?

Sorry for starting to rant. While I've been a long-time Windows user (mostly because of compatibility with my work or client environments), I am not a fan of MS tactics for the necessity of upgrading expensive OS's all the time and then dealing with loss of use of software I've used (and paid good money for, like 3DS Max, about $4K worth of investment down the tubes). grmble grmble grnch....

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Marl
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 21:49
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@Ancient Lady

I'm with you on that. Windows brought a lot of good things to the PC, but lately Microsoft has lost direction.

Windows XP / Server 2003 was as good as it got, everything since has been bloated nanny-ware with a comedy interface. Muck for the masses.

For example, on XP / 2003, you right click on your network icon in the toolbar and pick Status and it tells you useful stuff about that interface such as the IP address.

On Windoze 7, you do the same, but go to the network and sharing center, choose change adapter settings, choose the adapter, then right button/status, then click details - too long winded for me.

While I appreciate that they are simplifying things for the "ordinary person", I'd like to be able to turn off all the gimmicks and keep the experience lean and fast.

And I really don't like the boxy new interface
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 22:52
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Quote: "People know and love windows (which is why it's still hugely used on almost every PC in the world) and if a proper windows tablet was released before iPad then the iPad would be no where near as popular."

Could also be that most hardware seller have special deals with microsoft to include windows on laptops and computers.
Microsoft do alot of stupid things when developing windows.
I have started to skip some generations of windows because they simply are bad.
My history with windows is more or less.
win 95
win 98
win me big mistake
win xp
win vista whas a big mistake
Currently using win 7 that i like alot but i will skip win 8 completely.
And alot of people do not like windows and use linux or apples os.
I have many friends that have turned to apple lately ,but i have a to huge software library that only works in windows to do the same.
Iam lazy thats why i dont switch os.
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bjadams
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Posted: 18th Jun 2012 22:55
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unless the win8 tablets will be half the price of an ipad, then they won't sell en masse.

this is the problem with the current new android mobiles. they cost as much or even more than an iphone!!
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 00:28
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Can't say I agree with much of this. Ignoring the potential of a Microsoft-produced tablet strikes me as a pretty dumb attitude!

Small, Indie developers need to get on the ball very fast before the big boys start bothering.

In the whole of Europe in the education sector PCs running Windows totally dominate. IT departments are under pressure to allow students and staff to bring their own devices, but few centres will allow or support Macs or Androids. A massive sigh of relief will go up if there are devices that will integrate nicely into existing domains.

Remember that the Kindle Fire (not available in Europe) has taken 16% of the tablet market in quite a short time. Dell has already started making noises about W8 tablets.

By all means sit back and watch - but by that time the parade may have gone by.

-- Jim
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bjadams
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 00:32
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Just as I was saying... Kindle Fire has taken 16% of the tablet market. Why? Cos it's only $200 and may drop to $150 after Microsoft's announcement!
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Paul Johnston
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 01:40
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My personal opinion is that unless the Windows tablets support C++ and OpenGL it will be difficult to convince developers to port existing apps. I don't think I would have done Playbook support at all if I hadn't dropped the rendering engine on to it unmodified and seen it working right away, it doesn't make sense to put a lot of work into (currently) minor platforms.

Also the fact that they may be pricing it in the iPad range of $500 just puts another unnecessary road block in the way of the platform's success by limiting the number of users. They need one or the other to start the ball rolling, users to demand the apps or the apps to draw in the users.

Microsoft will likely start offering incentives to developers to write apps for C# and DirectX, which is no guarantee the platform will take off, but if anyone can pull it off it's Microsoft.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 08:33
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They'll certainly support C++ etc. The new Visual Studio will have ARM support (the beta version I have doesn't).

Must say the tablets look very nice indeed! Quad-core Nvidia ARM chip sounds excellent!

-- Jim
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MrValentine
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 10:43
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so any link for this launch video I kinda fell asleep early last night...

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 11:41
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No - but Google it and there are lots of reports.

-- Jim
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baxslash
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 14:44 Edited at: 19th Jun 2012 14:45
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Just thought I'd add my 2p.

I agree with JimHawkins here, these tablets might turn out to be slower and less cleverly designed that those produced by Apple but it's never hampered the success of Microsoft before has it?

These devices will integrate easily with the market share of devices and networks and will no doubt do well no matter how rubbish they are (not that they necessarily will be). We should certainly be looking at them seriously.

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bjadams
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 15:54
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Windows Arm tablets will NOT support opengl, so there's not much hope according to Paul's words.

Which brings forth another question... how will TGC plan to have AppGameKit run on Windows8 phone?
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 19:36
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These tablets will be significantly faster than iPads, not slower.

I can understand MS wanting a lean, clean system. Unless they're going to go down the Apple nanny route, I can't see why an OpenGL system can't be built into apps. And who knows exactly what will be in the release version of Metro/WindowsRT.

The response of the tech journalists has been overwhelmingly positive.

-- Jim
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 19:48
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Quote: "Which brings forth another question... how will TGC plan to have AppGameKit run on Windows8 phone? "

Quote: " I can't see why an OpenGL system can't be built into apps."


There should be a possibillity to write an direct x player ?

And then again who should put there time in to writing an direct x player that reads agk bytecode?

Do we want more delays?

or should we simply bugg ms to have open gl support so is there not much more problems.

Its always good to support many various hardware.

I belive ms will have to add some kind of open gl support later on for it to succed.

Alot of devs can develop there apps for so many more users and hardware by developing for open gl,so why rewrite everything for direct x again.

No! its microsofts turn to listen .
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 20:20
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Quote: "There should be a possibillity to write an direct x player ?"


AGK works across so many platforms because it stays away from platform specific/proprietary 'features'. Hence using Open GL.

If Windows 8 phones work with directx, then Dark Basic and Dark GDK should be usable for developing on that platform.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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bjadams
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 22:34
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jozTK-MqEXQ
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Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 23:05
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The pad looks cool but to bad about the faulty one he had to replace during the presentation.

The one thing that comes to mind while watching is !!

How high will the price be ?

Magnezium casing is extremly expensive to manufacture.

Quote: "If Windows 8 phones work with directx, then Dark Basic and Dark GDK should be usable for developing on that platform."

Agk should focus on open gl
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 19th Jun 2012 23:13
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The built-in stand is a good thing, and something none of the existing tablets have.

And I like the integrated keyboard with the cover.

And they promise that all your existing apps will work.

I'm actually quite impressed with what they showed. The device looks nothing like some of the early boxes shown.

But I love that they had to go get another Surface when the first one hung on Internet Explorer. He couldn't get the keyboard to display either.

Of all the browsers I test for the sites I build for my clients, IE is the worst for following standards and the best for causing me problems.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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Marl
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Posted: 20th Jun 2012 01:54
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It certainly looks impressive, but then isn't that the point of these kind of presentations.

I don't recall Microsoft (or any other corporation) unveiling a product with terms like "it's OK I guess".

They neatly avoided what is possibly the top question for any portable device - how long does it run on batteries?

All that impressive 22 degree stuff is nothing if the battery is dead before you finish the film you're streaming over the innovative dual antennas to their perfect HD screen.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 20th Jun 2012 11:42
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I suspect that they'll have thought about that!

-- Jim
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 20th Jun 2012 16:09
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Was anyone able to decipher the retail release date? To my ears the first part was fairly garbled. The pro version will come out about 3 months later. But later than what?

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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bjadams
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Posted: 20th Jun 2012 16:40
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october 2012
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Doz
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While I'm all for more competition in the tablet space, I think Microsoft is going to just create more confusion. The ARM (Win8 RT) and the x86 (Win8/Win8 Pro/etc) tablets are not compatible with each other. The ARM tablets are going to need different compiled programs which will probably have more restrictions as far as development goes.

Personally the x86 ones look like the way to go since they will have full compatibility, but going off current devices, they will cost around $1000 at launch. The ARM ones will be much cheaper but I imagine they'll get a lot of complaints from people who can't install their old programs. At least they are including a version of Office with the ARM ones, that should help a bit and give them a leg up over Android/iPads.

One plus though, Win8 RT and Windows Phone 8 will have a shared core, so development across those two platforms should be fairly seamless. http://windowsteamblog.com/windows_phone/b/windowsphone/archive/2012/06/20/announcing-windows-phone-8.aspx

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basjak
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Posted: 27th Jun 2012 01:11 Edited at: 28th Jun 2012 02:50
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I contacted microsoft today and got confirmation that developers will not have be getting into learning new platform.

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