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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Has anybody been able to do this before with Dark Basic Pro - A query

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Juggernaut
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 18:02
Hello,

Has anybody been able achieve this rendering quality with Dark Basic Pro - check the screenshots. Is it really achievable while using Dark Basic Pro or Dark GDK 2.0 ?
Juggernaut
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 18:03
Here is another screenshot.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 18:31
Those images are possible yes. I think that Samurai Legends is close to that level...

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=195169&b=8

Juggernaut
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 18:39
@Pincho Paxton: Yes you are right - quite close. The screenshots of Samurai Legends is not as good as the youtube video.

Do you know how he achieved that and what Dark Basic Pro plugins he used ? Can he be contacted to share with us some details ?
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 18:56
Well first he is an amazing modeller with Max. If you were to ask for specific shaders then Green Gandalf usually has an answer.

Juggernaut
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 19:32
@Pincho Paxton: Modelling isn't all. Light also plays a key role and so does shaders. I am interested in knowing how he achieved that kind of lighting effects - something like sun effect.

How can we get in touch with irradic ? Do you know him ?
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 20:09 Edited at: 17th Aug 2012 20:24
Maybe something like this too?

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb_ZU1lCgnc[/youtube]

That was done in DBPro by Mike Inel, who used to frequent here. His projects were always very well done, but like me, he never finished them. [edit]Correction, he did finish this.

Most of it is shader effects and to be honest, I've not given shader programming much thought so I couldn't help you. But a great resource for shaders for DBP is Evolved's website.

http://www.evolved-software.com/

There's some great water, shadow and lighting effects you can achieve with them. You won't be able to do the above video and it seems Mike Inel has used his own shaders.


In the shot you've posted, it actually looks like the effect you're after can be achieve through lightmapping (except the slightly grainy feel, but you could do that with a shader). For free lightmapping software, one program where you should in theory be able to bake to that quality is Gile[s], however, there is also 3D World Studio (not free), but I don't know what rendering features it has (it's available from TGC).

Gile[s]

The effect is called global illumination (Ambient Occlusion is a type of global illumination), which is used by 3D rendering software and can also be baked into lightmaps in Gile[s] and some other lightmapping software. It is possible to have an ambient occlusion shader (usually screen space ambient occlusion of SSAO for short), but I've not seen any available for DBP.

I'd say using the lightmap method you'll be using fewer resources to achieve the effect, so if you're not up for coding your own SSAO shader, that's a good alternative . Combine it with some of EVOLVED's shaders and you could have some really cool looking scenes.

I am using Gile[s] for my Unity3D project, but not tried it with DBP myself, so I don't know how smoothly the scenes loads.

Brendy boy
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 20:10
Quote: "I am interested in knowing how he achieved that kind of lighting effects - something like sun effect."

advanced lighting by Evolved

Juggernaut
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 20:36
@Seppuku Arts: Thank you for explaining the whole thing. I guess I have got to do a lot of homework on the things you mentioned.

The work of Mike Inel is very good - cannot believe that it was pulled off using DBP. In the professional arena DBP is know more as a toy than a commercial grade engine. Hope more work will crop up change the bad notion.

@Brendy boy: Thanks for the link.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 21:05
The second screenshot looks like something Mike Inel made. (I hope I've got his name right...) I've seen a video of it before; quite cool.

The truth of the matter is, you can get DBP (and other engines) to look however you want them to... So that's not really the thing to ask. Perhaps these are better questions: How easy is it to get it to look like this? How flexible is the solution? How fast does it run when it looks like that? etc.

MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 22:09
Quote: "Can he be contacted to share with us some details ? "


The thread mentioned by Pax is still open, just go post in there...

Quote: "Those images are possible yes. I think that Samurai Legends is close to that level...

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=195169&b=8"


A Mega thank you to Sepp for this

Quote: "Maybe something like this too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb_ZU1lCgnc"


I did not know it was 3D, I saw the Newsletter cover and that was about it... but the art style intrigued me so very much...

the water effects were fantastic...

Got me thinking a lot now...

Rudolpho
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Posted: 17th Aug 2012 23:36
Quote: "It is possible to have an ambient occlusion shader (usually screen space ambient occlusion of SSAO for short), but I've not seen any available for DBP."

I believe that is already available in Advanced Lighting as well. At the very least I'm positive I saw a flag named "enableSSAO" / similar when trying to port AL over to DGDK2 (which of course failed, but that's another story).


"Why do programmers get Halloween and Christmas mixed up?"
Juggernaut
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 01:19
Quote: "The second screenshot looks like something Mike Inel made. (I hope I've got his name right...) I've seen a video of it before; quite cool.

The truth of the matter is, you can get DBP (and other engines) to look however you want them to... So that's not really the thing to ask. Perhaps these are better questions: How easy is it to get it to look like this? How flexible is the solution? How fast does it run when it looks like that? etc."


Yes Aaron, thank you for correcting me. I agree with you. The objective of my query was to know how they did it and using what sort of tools.

Quote: "

Quote: "It is possible to have an ambient occlusion shader (usually screen space ambient occlusion of SSAO for short), but I've not seen any available for DBP."
I believe that is already available in Advanced Lighting as well. At the very least I'm positive I saw a flag named "enableSSAO" / similar when trying to port AL over to DGDK2 (which of course failed, but that's another story).

"


It is great to know SSAO (screen space ambient occlusion) is already present in Dark Lights plugin for Dark Basic Pro.
But again anybody who can show us a screenshot who has used that feature will give us a more concrete proof of its existence.

If such advanced features already available in Dark Basic Pro - I wonder why we get to see such dark unimpressive (most of them) screenshots in the screenshots gallery.

Also wish Dark GDK will become at par with Dark Basic Pro one day.
Brendy boy
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 01:24
Quote: "It is great to know SSAO (screen space ambient occlusion) is already present in Dark Lights plugin for Dark Basic Pro. "

it is not. Only AO is present and is baked to a texture (like lightmaps). SSAO is screen effect which is done through a shader

Juggernaut
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 01:27
@Brendy boy: oh !

Can you confirm if post processing effects are allowed in Dark Basic Pro. Are there any in-built post processing commands ?
MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 01:30
Quote: "SET SCREEN EFFECT"


still, as any shader requires an FX file

I could be wrong...

Rudolpho
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 01:43 Edited at: 18th Aug 2012 01:46
Quote: "SSAO is screen effect which is done through a shader"

AdvancedLighting is just a bunch of Shaders, along with a pretty hefty framework to manage them. But I get the misconception since Juggernaut was seemingly referring to DarkLights which is a static lightmapper (that is, it performs time consuming light calculations and bakes the result into a texture. It can thus give more realistic results than what can be achieved in realtime using shaders).

Quote: "Can you confirm if post processing effects are allowed in Dark Basic Pro."

HLSL Shaders up to Shader Model 3 are supported. You are a bit limited by the fact that you can only have 8 simultaneous textures on an object, most of the time you will probably not use more anyway though.
Edit: And yes, screen effects (pixel shaders that work on the screen buffer) can be used. Here's an example. (Yes, I know it's FPSC, but that in turn is written in DBPro so...).


Quote: "If such advanced features already available in Dark Basic Pro - I wonder why we get to see such dark unimpressive (most of them) screenshots in the screenshots gallery."

They're not directly built-in, you have to either write your own shaders or use someone elses. The only "built-in" shaders are the ones you can reach by such functions as set blend mapping on and you can't really edit these in realtime from your code like you can with a standard shader (which are known as effects in DBPro if you want to check them up in the documentation).
The reason they are seldom seen is probably because it is pretty complicated to maintain shaders as soon as they get moderately complex. For example you will have to perform multiple render passes to images that you then texture objects with for things such as light and shadows. This also leads to slowdowns and may very well come down in the near unplayable range unless you do a lot more optimisation work (ie. cull away things not seen by the camera, etc.).


"Why do programmers get Halloween and Christmas mixed up?"
Juggernaut
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 01:54 Edited at: 18th Aug 2012 02:05
Quote: "Quote: "SSAO is screen effect which is done through a shader"
AdvancedLighting is just a bunch of Shaders, along with a pretty hefty framework to manage them. But I get the misconception since Juggernaut was seemingly referring to DarkLights which is a static lightmapper (that is, it performs time consuming light calculations and bakes the result into a texture. It can thus give more realistic results than what can be achieved in realtime using shaders)."


@Rudolpho: Can you please give us a link for advanced lighting plugin for Dark Bssic Pro. I can't seem to locate it on TGC website.

Oh ok I got it. You were referring to Advanced lighting shaders - silly me.
MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 02:01
http://www.evolved-software.com/

I believe I might have given you this link once already...

Brendy boy
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 02:13
Quote: "Can you confirm if post processing effects are allowed in Dark Basic Pro."

1. you create a plain object and place it in front of a camera,
2. you render that camera to an image
3. you texture that plain with that image
4. you set a shader to that plain
5. that's it, you have a screen effect!

Quote: "Are there any in-built post processing commands ? "

yes and they are, i believe, undocumented. Search the help files for a command like "set screen effect". That command are part of dark shader plugin (shaderdata.dll) which is free

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 02:36
Basically you can code in the effects. SSAO is basically a real-time AO effect. Dark Lights brings lightmapping commands to DBP. Lightmapping is essentially rendering lights to the texture of your object. Video games take advantage of it to save on processing power where there are static lights. The ambient occlussion effect can be achieved via light maps and is cheaper on system resources and also easier coding wise as you can do it all through a lightmapping program and just import it.

If you want it as a shader effect, it can be more difficult, but it is possible to use Dark Shader to create your shaders or code them without it (like EVOLVED does with his), if the effect you need isn't already freely available, then chances are you'll need to learn to code them.

However, EVOLVED has been good to us and provided plenty of desireable shaders for free on his website with samples showing how to use them. Even using shaders in Dark Basic Pro can be a bit complicated, at least it's not as simple as "load shader", "apply shader", for example, to achieve water effects you'll be creating different cameras to use for your render and applying the shader to the resulting image. But EVOLVED doesn't try to overcomplicate his examples too much and I think they're worth using if you wanna try them out.

Dark Basic Pro does have full shader support, so it should be able to achieve any kind of shader effect for anybody with the skill to code it.

Or again, there is Dark Shader, which should be Dark GDK compatible (I think, but don't quote me on that). EVOLVED offers DGDK versions of his code anyway.

I think if you wanna started using attractive shaders in your project, that's a good place to start. If you want AO, I'd say start with light maps if you don't need don't need dynamic lights except for object/character shadows.

Kezzla
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 09:07
Quote: "That was done in DBPro by Mike Inel, who used to frequent here. His projects were always very well done, but like me, he never finished them. [edit]Correction, he did finish this."


am I the only one who just gets a black screen when I try to play that which game? Its dissapointing especially after such rave reviews.

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 14:00 Edited at: 18th Aug 2012 14:00
It worked last time I played it. It's ace, it's Blue/Red 3D, and very atmospheric.

Kezzla
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 15:16
my only thought is that I must not have pixelshader 2.0 or something. on a modern card I would have thought I could have played it.(I still want to, it is highly recomended and a dbpro project)

I really want to see this highly praised work of art, and I would like to think it would work on new systems. please please add a win7 64 bit version. I want to see what all the fuss is about.

kezzla

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Juggernaut
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Posted: 18th Aug 2012 16:19
@Kezzla: What game are you talking about ?
Irradic
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Posted: 19th Aug 2012 09:12
Quote: "@Pincho Paxton: Yes you are right - quite close. The screenshots of Samurai Legends is not as good as the youtube video.

Do you know how he achieved that and what Dark Basic Pro plugins he used ? Can he be contacted to share with us some details ? "


My main concern was always the pixelation and jaggyness even at 1920x1080. But increasing the resolution for post effects resulted in a huge decrease in performance.

Evolved is rewriting his Advanced Lighting Shaders from scratch for improved performance.

ALS is your number 1 choice if you are after nice looking lighting and post effects.
The ambient lighting is image based, which mimics a nice global illumination effect. You have to create your own diffusely convolved cubemaps to customize ambient lighting.

But to make it short, yes your desired quality can be achieved. Your first image though has its lighting baked into lightmaps.
If you are not after real time shadows, you of course could bake shadows and ambient occlusion into your diffuse textures as well.
Another option would be to edit the shaders to allow lightmaps on a certain texture channel.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 19th Aug 2012 12:55 Edited at: 19th Aug 2012 12:57
The thing is though will Juggernaut be able to make a game like his images? Not many people are up to those skills. A lot of people will look at a game "I want to make a game like that!" Then they are happy with something a lot lower quality in the end. I think it's good to set your goals high though.

Juggernaut
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Posted: 19th Aug 2012 15:48 Edited at: 19th Aug 2012 15:59
Quote: "Evolved is rewriting his Advanced Lighting Shaders from scratch for improved performance."


@Irradic: You know him personally ?

EDIT: I got it he declared it in his forum.

Quote: "The thing is though will Juggernaut be able to make a game like his images? "


The same question haunts Juggernaut too, specially when he does not understand shader coding.
mistsnake
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Posted: 19th Aug 2012 21:47
its essential to note that even pro-companies take shortcuts, there is always a trade off between quality and speed. further more the trade off between your skill and desire

i'm still waiting for those light power chips of the terahertz speed so we can get dark VR
Juggernaut
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Posted: 19th Aug 2012 21:50
Quote: "i'm still waiting for those light power chips of the terahertz speed so we can get dark VR "


Can you please elaborate on this further ?
Brendy boy
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Posted: 19th Aug 2012 23:02
Quote: "Can you please elaborate on this further ? "

LOL

WLGfx
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Posted: 21st Aug 2012 01:14
Ooooh Dark VR... Now that's something... "Isn't that already possible with DBP?" (Quote from 2015)

Actually, yes with the new 3D techno stuff, but it's slow and it is possible but not readily available in most programming languages.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
mistsnake
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2012 02:06
my sentence was wishful thinking Juggernaut cause i'd love a actual Virtual reality simulator you could wonder around in ever since I first saw the cartoon 'new adventures' of jonny quest in 'quest world'

you may know already but silicon is reaching the end of its life span - shrinking wise, so alternatives have been in research a while such as molecule based, laser based or graphene based, the later already had a transistor at 300ghz in 2010, its a dreamy speed increase if it ever comes relatively soon
Juggernaut
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Posted: 27th Aug 2012 12:15
A 310GHZ processor powering our home PC !

Any links on this new kind of technology that the scientists are researching ?
Juggernaut
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Posted: 10th Oct 2012 17:38
Quote: "

Quote: "Can you confirm if post processing effects are allowed in Dark Basic Pro."
1. you create a plain object and place it in front of a camera,
2. you render that camera to an image
3. you texture that plain with that image
4. you set a shader to that plain
5. that's it, you have a screen effect!

Quote: "Are there any in-built post processing commands ? "
yes and they are, i believe, undocumented. Search the help files for a command like "set screen effect". That command are part of dark shader plugin (shaderdata.dll) which is free

"


Does set screen effect support application of multiple shaders ? I mean is the shaders applied stackable or only one shader effect allowed as in case of objects ?
Brendy boy
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Posted: 10th Oct 2012 20:39
Quote: "set screen effect support application of multiple shaders "

i don't believe so, but you can do it with the first method i suggested (with a plain in front of a camera, you want more effects - put more plains in front of a camera, each plain with different effect)

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