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Geek Culture / New VB is good...

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MicroMan
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Posted: 15th Nov 2003 21:23 Edited at: 15th Nov 2003 21:25
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I've been playing around with a friends laptop for a few days, to take the new VB out for a test drive before I buy it, and I have to say that I like it, even though it is pretty treacherous ground.

I've tried to upgrade my present developments to the new system, and find that the code is imported allright and in context it works, but the code works in slightly unpredictable ways.

Which of course means that you sit there with knowledge from VB 6 with code that doesn't generate errors but which nevertheless does things you don't want, and you can't figure out why. Which, of course, leaves you thoroughly confused and lost.

HOWEVER, the new VB looks very neat, and with the better graphics support (including DX support!) one can do things in this version of VB that one has never done before. And the fact that the language compiles very very well since it shares the same compiler as Visual C++ and Visual C# (there's no speed difference on the resulting compilation) there's really no need anymore to use C++ unless you have particular needs or unless you really want to.

Cheers,
Microman

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th Nov 2003 21:52
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Well, I am a vb.net advocate but at the same rate I wouldn't say no need to use C++, as most of the world's software is either C++ or VB6. Having said that the improvements of vb.net over 6 are immeasurable to say the least. VB has finally become a fully OOPL as was not the case in 6 (although it was close). I love the new vb and the level playing field for it amongst the C++/C# program langs. Now that "Everything is an Object" in vb, including all the low level system objects, including all hardware, it's what makes the whole managed dx thing possible - and really no more need for win32api calls (for the most part) I am gald to see others are finding out for themselves the truths of what I have been preaching here, as well as other places!

SWEET-Enjoy the new power-toolkit we have been given!

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MicroMan
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Posted: 15th Nov 2003 21:57
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Well, I don't really speak for the code pros out there since I'm not good enough to be able to do that, but if some of the people here that don't know C++ today wants another competent alternative to learning C++, then the new VB is it.

There's no limitation anymore, and with the support for DX (or rather the removal of the VB6 limitation against using DirectX) you don't HAVE to learn C++ unless you want to find a job with a big house.

For me, as a hobbyist sitting in my study coding, VB 7 is a very good alternative.

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 15th Nov 2003 22:35 Edited at: 15th Nov 2003 22:36
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Can someone post a link to where i can buy VB online? bearing in mind i'm in britain
I searched on amazon and got loads of results but i'm not sure which one i need, some appeared to be upgrades, some cd-tutorial type things and some were hellishly expensive. All i want is a fairly up to date version that i can use 4 making stuff

#Edit- i think i sound like a newbie oh dear


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th Nov 2003 23:55
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well when we speak of the new vb we are saying VB.NET. I would reccomend if you are not into spending 2000 dollars for Visual Studio Enterprise Architect (the version I have) which has C#,VB,C++,J# and are only interested in VB.NET (vb7) then i would reccomend VB.NET Professional - you can do a search and find it on amazon, or even ms sites. The last time I checked it was around 500 dollars, but now with version 2003 out it may be more - to me it is worth it as I do coding professionally and can write off my expenses. For the indy guys it may cost a ton - but either way this new version is worth it.

I may know a guy, though, if you catch my drift...


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Mattman
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Posted: 15th Nov 2003 23:58 Edited at: 16th Nov 2003 00:12
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I just started a proggy in vb6 earlier today as a matter o' fact

man I need to learn it [edit] look what I found >>> http://visualbasic.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.vbtutor.net/vbtutor.html

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John Y
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 00:13
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VB.Net is a very nice language. It is much better than vb6, I uninstalled vb6 straight after using .net . Also, with the new windows coming out, I am sure vb6 will be on the unsupported list.

The cool thing is that you can use the conversion wizard to learn how to use .net compared to vb6. You do the code you know in vb6, then load it in .net and you can see how you should write it in .net.

Hence, I wrote my editor in .net as it is

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Mattman
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 00:14
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I don't have .net nor the $$$ to buy it

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 00:27 Edited at: 16th Nov 2003 00:28
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how about this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000089GKW/o/qid=1068934697/sr=2-1/ref=sr_bt_1/026-2668189-7904456

this is the standard version, just about in my price range, anyone got any views on this?


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John Y
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 00:29
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Well, if you want to write apps, then I'm sure the standard edition will be more than good enough. Also, if you cant afford the pro version (which I can see why) then there is no contest

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 02:05
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apps or games in standard - doesn't matter. Standard is the same as pro, arch, or E-Arch - it's all managed code so you can use DX9 SDK with any version of VB.NET. By getting standard you are not missing out on any of the language stuff, just all the little goodies/extras that ms packs into the kit. I have Enterprise Architect and it comes with a slew of other software I will never use but some I do use like SQL Server 2000, MSDN, Visio - and the other languages like C#,C++,J#. Either way get a hold of vb.net --- I know a guy, if anyone is interested, if ya get me wink wink

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MicroMan
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 02:28
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As Cattlerustler said, even though he keeps (I think) hinting about that runny-eyed, scurvybitten dog of a masthugger that keeps drinking rum and singing about buried island treasures.

The point is, VB is a very good language now. I'm sorry I will have to part with this laptop tomorrow when my friend gets back from Barcelona, but I'll be filling out the order for VB .NET Pro tonight. Hopefully it won't take TOO long before I get it, and hopefully I'll be able to download it straight away.

Cheers,
Microman

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MikeS
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 02:36
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So would you recommend buying standard over pro?

As far as $$$, I'm low, and have wanted to buy vb.net for quite a while now.

Really my question is.

What does vb.net pro have over standard?

-Speed difference?
-Less libary's?
-Less 'features'?

Those sorts of things.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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MicroMan
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 03:02
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No, no speed difference because you're using the foundation of the .Net framework, which is external from Visual Studio. What is different is the price and your ability to make more corporate style Web applications using XML and some of the tools included in the package. The language isn't any different in one version from the other.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 04:37
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if it were just up to choice I'd say get Pro only for the extra goodies packed in the kit, aside from that standard is fine.

"Aye, matey, I have a keel-hauled friend who is willin' to part with some of dem hard-fought wares! cheap!"

"dem includes a pro style version of a pro style lingo type-dem dere"

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Mattman
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 04:42
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I have VS6.0 enterprise, don't expect to change for a looooooong time

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 07:29
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That's unfortunate Mattman
you will be missing all the fun in .net

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Dave J
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 09:51 Edited at: 16th Nov 2003 09:52
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Yes, VB.NET is significantly better then VB6 - Unfortunately, I really hate the way that each user must have the WHOLE .NET framework (over 30mb) installed before they're able to run any apps made with it. Sure, VB6 needed a runtime package installed as well, but you could easily just include the OCX's you used (usually no more then 1mb) rather then the whole package. This is in particular a very large problem when you hope to distribute applications online and a large majority of the world are still using 56k modems.

Edit: I also can't believe they removed Control Arrays, now we have to use a fair bit of code to simulate them.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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kingius
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 13:20 Edited at: 16th Nov 2003 13:21
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Actually, its over 20mb not over 30mb, which is about 5 minutes download on broadband. My personal view on this is that it might put narrow band users off unless they can get a CD version... but anyone who fights downloading the dot Net framework is simply putting off the inevitable... one day all programs will be made like this

Dont believe me? MS is moving the OS over to managed code with Longhorn, and its highly likely the OS release after that will not support "dirty" code at all.
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empty
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 13:29
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Quote: "and its highly likely the OS release after that will not support "dirty" code at all."

And that will be 2010 or so.

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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klariza
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:00
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i done a beginners course in VB - i didn't like it much at first - cause it took me a while for things to fall into place.
i think i have VB5 somewhere - its an educaction version of the programme. i think i got it for 40 quid from some bargain book store. (it also came with 3 books as well - massive thick ones :s)
i have not touched it since i finished that college course last yr tho'.

I am obsessed by Toasters - especially talking ones...bizaare really isn't it?
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kingius
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 16:18
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Quote: "And that will be 2010 or so."


2008 is my guess

That is, of course, if Longhorn doesnt make moves towards this itself, which it could do.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 18:53
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The framework is a small download for broadband. I think later versions of XP have it already in the install. The actual size (26 megs or so) is actually small when considering that it is a complete group of system classes that exist side by side with the existing clases - think about about how huge windows file system is to begin with - IMHO 26 megs one time isn't alot to ask.

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David T
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 18:55
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I'm a VB6 advocate meself, I don't likew the new one much

ps, Why does everybody I talk to have VB 6 enterprise? surely these people don'ty go and buy the expensive enterprise version when there are cheaper versions aroung?
Surely these people don't run enterprises

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empty
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 18:58
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Problem is, that it requires Win 2000 or later versions, which- at the moment- rules out more than 60% of the current Windows users. Additionally, if you want to write a little freeware or shareware tool, a requirement of the .net framework is way too much atm.

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build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 19:10
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Looks like i'm saving again then its unlikely i'd want to distribute any apps i make with it to anyone(other than you guys,hehe )so having the .net framework doesn't really bother me, i've got it at the moment actually and by the time i do anything meaningful with VB everyone will have it!


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MikeS
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 19:25
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So, you can only run software made with vb.net if you have the .net framework installed? BUT, windows xp already has it, otherwise you must include it with your zipped(or whatever) files?

Hope I'm getting this straight. Either way, if the vb.net is this good, I'll keep my eyes open on amazon.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 19:37
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yup you need the .net framework to run an app made with vb.net, my XP didn't come with it installed but i suppose later versions might


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the_winch
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 19:51
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Quote: "Why does everybody I talk to have VB 6 enterprise?"


Do a search on kazaa and see which version pops up

Also it will be the most used version by business and when they start switching to .net some of the old software will start making it's way onto ebay type sites. Then there is the stuff that becomes available when companies go bust.

I got a legalish copy of vb4 enterprise quite a while ago for cheap so it is possible.

Once there is a reason for people to install the .net framework I guess everyone will have it as long as there aren't loads of different versions it won't be a problem.
It won't be installed on most versions of winxp from what I have seen and most people will not download that much unless your app is very good. It not working on win98 is a bit of a pain though.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 20:03
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I agree with the thought that it's a pain to have end users have the framework installed. Can't just distribute a quick-and-dirty little app like you could in vb6, but I accept the trade-off of the new and improved vb, gladly.

btw, in case anyone is wondering the latest framework version is 1.1

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Mattman
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 22:05
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my dad gave vs6.0 enterprise for free, so thats why i have it

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 16th Nov 2003 22:12
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do you think he could give it to me for free? he can, of course pay to send it over to england(naturally )


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Mattman
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 01:03
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err, maybe if you got some levels done for christ's sake!

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MikeS
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 02:26
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Jingot racing on the backburner due to school?



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MicroMan
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 02:34 Edited at: 17th Nov 2003 02:35
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The .Net framework isn't just Microsoft languages anymore. I know that the next incarnation of Delphi will be .Net capable. I don't know about C++ Builder, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if they incorporate .Net in that too.

The .Net shift is, after all, like the shift to the COM-model. It's not something you can avoid indefinitely, not if you want to develop seriously for the windows platform. Just look at the importance of COM to all of us here. DirectX is, after all, a COM-library.

The .Net is the next big push to ameliorate the problems with net capability that COM and COM+ had. So, I don't see how it can be avoided. And from what I've seen of it, I don't think it SHOULD be avoided either.

The code is much cleaner with .Net than the DLL Hell of the COM/ActiveX era.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 03:05
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ha ha DLL-HELL, them days are over! (for the most part)

GOT .NET ?
(spoof got milk? ads)

JAM!

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 03:28
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and the new sig img to show my support...

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Mattman
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 04:40 Edited at: 17th Nov 2003 04:40
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well, partially school, partially Red Eye is doing squat

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Dave J
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 05:19
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Quote: "Problem is, that it requires Win 2000 or later versions, which- at the moment- rules out more than 60% of the current Windows users. Additionally, if you want to write a little freeware or shareware tool, a requirement of the .net framework is way too much atm."


That's exactly my point. I don't plan to release some huge App on CD (in which case, I could then include the .NET Framework in the setup), I just plan to have a tiny app with nothing more then a 1MB download. However, the Framework increases this way too much, of course, broadband users don't care, but what about the other 80% of the world still on dial-up?


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MicroMan
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 17:02
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Quote: "
That's exactly my point. I don't plan to release some huge App on CD (in which case, I could then include the .NET Framework in the setup), I just plan to have a tiny app with nothing more then a 1MB download.
"


I don't think it's up to the developers to distribute it. It's something that the users will have to fix for themselves. Right now a lot of the business-to-business software is being created with .Net because it's so much easier to use it than to distribute COM-capable software to all instances of a computer setup.

It may take a year more before the .Net is truly established out there, as the Win 9x OS is finally phased out because of incompatibility issues. Now that Microsoft has abandoned the Win95 platform I don't see anything that it won't take long before they abandon the whole Win 9x. Already they sort of ignore Win Me and only focus on Win 98.

And, already, their new product lines are often incompatible with all the Win 9x incarnations.

However, even though it make take another year, it doesn't mean developers should be 'complacant'. I won't start developing for .Net yet. I've got to learn it first. But eventually I can't see how one can avoid it.

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Dazzag
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Posted: 17th Nov 2003 17:50 Edited at: 17th Nov 2003 17:52
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Quote: "I won't start developing for .Net yet. I've got to learn it first. But eventually I can't see how one can avoid it.
"


Of course not. MS rules the computer world basically. Doesn't matter how much people whine on about MS, that's the way it is. Give it a couple of years and the only people with 9X will be OAP's and libraries. It's happened before (we all loved 3.11 remember?), and will happen again.

As to .NET, yep programming VB.NET is very very nice. Sorts out a few of those annoyancies from VB6. Especially like the error control myself. All nice. Would recommend it, apart from the obvious .NET framework problem mentioned above. Oh, and it doesn't run that fast on slower PC's (I'm talking about a 800Mhz Laptop here, with 256Mb and 60GB HD, so not a complete dinosaur). And VB6 ran fine on it. And when I mean "run that fast", I mean some little lags when compiling (comparing a pretty small XML project in .NET with a fairly big VB6 project), not severe crippling drops here.

And minor point; it takes bloody forever to install!!!! Go out and have a meal before it's finished or something. Hell, a friend of mine actually went to the pub for a few, and it was *still* running when a got back a couple of hours later. This is on a 2600 machine with 120Gb, 512Mb, and a 52 speed CD. Yikes.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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