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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Kinect and Leap

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 18:31
Well - we (as a company) may not have a got an Ultrabook, on the grounds that helping to teach signing for deaf people was more boring than a platform game, but I have just heard that we have been granted a free Leap controller:
https://leapmotion.com/

The project was not for the deaf, but needs some finger-waggling.

I've also got a Kinect for Windows sitting just below my monitor.

How do you fancy AppGameKit plus new interfaces? I do!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 18:50
leap neads you to be close to the tv or have it on something stable close to you.

Kinect is simply to bad to use of wath i experienced.
Some issues i have with kinect is badtracking and extremely sensetive to lights in room and lighting.
If my friends dog stands close to use while playing and waggle his tail so does kinect get bonkers.

Move have simply an awfull camera but the move controllers helps it out and makes it the best one so far for motion gaming.

The best thing would be some kind of tracking thru the web cam that some entrys used on the ultrabook competition?

And how many motion controllers should agk support?

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TrezSoft
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 19:03 Edited at: 6th Jan 2013 22:40
Waiting for my Leap to arrive any day now.

At worst it should work out of the box with touch also its my understanding that it works in an 8ft cubic area !.

Have to wait and see .
xCept
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 19:31
Intel has also recently been promoting a new gesture camera ("Creative* Interactive Gesture Camera"). It is a close-range Kinect-like HD camera that allows you to track fingers and hands etc. for $200 at the moment. I think there is a lot of potential in gaming and general apps for these devices and would definitely like to see AppGameKit evolve towards them down the road.
JimHawkins
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 19:31
Cliff - the Kinect works beautifully. Throw the dog out!

The Leap is designed for very close stuff. It is nothing to do with TV.

Tracking through webcam? Get real! These dedicated devices are far batter.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
JimHawkins
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 19:32
If the Intel gadget is as good as Intels's graphic systems it might as well go in the bin immediately.

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 21:20 Edited at: 6th Jan 2013 21:23
Quote: "Cliff - the Kinect works beautifully. Throw the dog out!"

iam not a fan of kinect and by such a bad judge of it
And the dog is cute
Quote: "The Leap is designed for very close stuff. It is nothing to do with TV."

The stuff it does close by the monitor is cool.
But if you are so cloose to a computer why wave your hand in front of the screen?
I see a usefullness for handicaped persons but not so much for everyday users?
But i belive its potential will be revealed by all the hackers and hobbyists like with wiimotes and kinect.
But its still such a large grey zone.
The biggest flaws with kinect and playstation move seams to be motions close to them and when light sources confuses there software.
Kinect have more problem of bad coded games and software while ps move have alot of great software and bad hardware in its camera.
I have always loved motion controls and whas the first to buy the wii and playstation move when it whas released.
Havent bought a new box after the red rings but think about it sometimes.
So most of my kinect experience is when i play at my friends place.
So i shouldt judge it to much

Here is an article about laptops with built in kinect.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-57369732-1/sorry-kinect-weve-already-tried-motion-control-in-laptops-and-it-flopped/
Watch the video that comes after the toshiba one as its about win 8 and motion controls.

Quote: "Tracking through webcam? Get real! These dedicated devices are far batter."

There is some crazy people doing some cool stuff out there





Here is a few webcam games
http://ns2.camgaming.co.uk/

If we skipp all the talk about wath system is the best and scale them all down so do we see that its old tech in new clothes and more or less simply better software.

Wiimotes is nothing more then webcams with gyros that detect ir spots.

Kinect is a pretty looking camera with licensed software from israel.

Move is simply ps eye with colored balls with gyros we hold in our hands .

My problem with supporting motion controls is wath system should agk support as its a mess right now?

All manufacturers screams about there own product.

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bjadams
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 21:58
agk does not work on xbox or playstation so supporting Kinect and Move makes little sense.

I know that you can connect the Kinect to a pc, but the Leap is only $90 so I think it will catch on faster.
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 22:14
Quote: "I know that you can connect the Kinect to a pc"

Its more the tech nerds like us that buy these toys

Iam even looking at buying a retron 3 console that plays nes,snes,famicom,genesis games and even master system games with adapter,it have 3 slots on top for cartridges



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JimHawkins
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Posted: 6th Jan 2013 23:31
Cliff - you usually talk a lot of sense, but on this issue I think you are somewhat below sensible.

Quote: "Kinect is a pretty looking camera with licensed software from israel."


I share the view of several well-known computer journalists that Kinect is the most innovative and exciting technology for a decade.

Just a camera? You must be joking! It has a microphone array that can accurately track voices in 3D space, depth and colour sensors, and built-in skeletal tracking, and a controllable tilt servo.

If you'd seen people from 8 to 80 walking through Disneyland World in our sitting room this Xmas with the Xbox Kinect I don't think anybody would moan about bad software. That stuff is seriously well-done.

The leap ($69.99) is a different concept. It has no sound input but extremely (millimetre) accurate finger-tip tracking. The difference that some people seem to be lacking the imagination to see is that this operates (like Kinect) in 3D space. So, for £70 you can have better than a 27" touch screen, and not smear grease all over it.

This is not just nerd territory. Kinect and sensors like it are being used in medicine, design, art, music and so on. Surely people interested in making games must be a little bit excited by the possibilities - or is producing yet another side-scrolling platform game enough for them?

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Mobiius
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Posted: 7th Jan 2013 20:34
And the Kinect also has a full 3d accelerometers built in too. Why would they do this in a static device?! But it does and the possibilities of using it are endless.

It's just xbox games developers would rather focus on quick to release games with Kinect support selotaped on, rather than to come up with a truly innovative way of using it. (Kinect Disneyland Adventures comes the closest to it however. A truly well thought out game!)

The Gadget Show in the UK also made a full 360 degree hands free virtual gaming room which used the Kinect for jumping tracking out of off the shelf tech. A truly amazing video.


Here it is, and I want at least one!

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
See what I live for here: [url]http:\\www.TeamDefiant.co.uk[/url]
JimHawkins
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Posted: 7th Jan 2013 22:30
@Mobiius - Yep. I forgot that.

The Kinect SDK is very elegant, and so for that matter is the Leap's.

I'm particularly excited by the musical possibilities. Being able to register fingers in a 3D space gives vast possibilities to "pull" sound stuff out of surfaces, conduct and play imaginary instruments. In other words, things that would be impossible with a mouse or touch-screen.

And then, of course, I bet a lot of you would like to do motion capture for your 3D or 2D models

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 7th Jan 2013 22:39
Quote: "The Gadget Show in the UK also made a full 360 degree hands free virtual gaming room which used the Kinect for jumping tracking out of off the shelf tech. A truly amazing video."

This have bin out for the ps eye since launch and as you can see do this crappy camera also track well with good programing.
I where more impressed by the gun for iphone that showed some clever programming and use of camera and gyros


For me so did ms promise something and delivered something else by cutting out the kinect processor and use xbox internal cpu instead.
And cut down the rgb cam to 8 bit and a 640x480 resolution.
The core of kinect is licensed hardware and software from israel.

Here is the part that they own and get license fees for in kinect.

Israeli developer PrimeSense, which developed a system that can interpret specific gestures, making completely hands-free control of electronic devices possible by using an infrared projector and camera and a special microchip to track the movement of objects and individuals in three dimension. This 3D scanner system called Light Coding employs a variant of image-based 3D reconstruction.

And now if we look at wath kinect are ?
87% licensed software and hardware.

Ms simply put military tech at our homes
That had bin in use for a couple of years before kinect whas released to our homes.

You guys must read betwen the lines as the true point is that good programming can do wonders even with simpel webcams.
Its the software that is the amazing parts.
And if agk is to support motion controls so does it nead to be someting like an webcam that works on windows,iphone,android,mac and blackberry devices.
They all have webcams and i dont belive anyone would strapp on kinect to an ipdad or mac

Iam more impressed by the stuff that can be done with very basic hardware thru clever programming then sheets of paper that shows wath there tool have inside.

And as mobius points out so is it bad software more then bad kinect that i have experienced.

And if you read my older posts about the cameras so do i simply point to a simpel fact that they take well known technology slapp it in to an plastic shell and give it fancy names.

Playstation move is nothing new as this whas possible with the ps eye already on the ps 2.
They simply added light bulbs to hold in your hand

Wii is probably to outdated to even mention today with its greyscale camera and ir detectors.

If agk would support kinect how easy is it for everyday users to buy kinect an hook it up to work on an pc?

I thought we where talking about a good and cheap motion system for agk to support and not about wath systems we like?

But then again if i had the skills to hack and program kinect so would i probably also love it alot more

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 7th Jan 2013 23:07 Edited at: 7th Jan 2013 23:14
@Cliff - "We" weren't talking about anything. I was.

Do some more research before deluging us with opinion. For example:

Quote: "how easy is it for everyday users to buy kinect an hook it up to work on an pc?"


Answer: Buy a Kinect for Windows on Amazon and plug it into a USB port. As you haven't got one at all, I don't think you're standing on very firm critical ground. You talk about "bad software" that you have experienced but don't say what it was. All you said was that your friend's dog messed up the system. Well, I was laying down a complex Midi track some years ago when my girlfriend's cat jumped on the keyboard; I didn't blame the Cubase software software for not having automatic cat-elimination algorithms - I blamed the cat, and hit the Cat-Eject button!

You do not need to "hack" Kinect. The SDK is available from Microsoft. For nothing. Free. Zilch.

At no point have I said that I would like AppGameKit to support any of these devices - I can do that and use AppGameKit for display. I can make the integration available if anybody's interested. It will be T2 or Pascal. Given that AppGameKit can't currently even use a microphone, I don't think putting sophisticated recognition devices on the Basic agenda is worth bothering with!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
BatVink
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Posted: 7th Jan 2013 23:40
Quote: "The best thing would be some kind of tracking thru the web cam that some entrys used on the ultrabook competition?"


A Web Cam is not in the same league. These devices are not cameras, they are advanced motion and sound sensors.

Kinect is a serious piece of kit. I don't own one, but they are being used for allsorts. They have a serious place in robotics, being used as "heads" in protoype models. They are also used in operating theatres, you don't get more serious than this environment - literally life and death. They use them to allow the surgeon to operate the screen containing video and system feedback, without having to touch anything.

-------

I was just looking at the Intel offering this evening, it looks like one of their better efforts. I was immediately wondering how it could be AGK'ed for some seriously fun tech. I applied for one but don't expect to get it. Then again, I never expected an Ultrabook either.







Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 00:25 Edited at: 8th Jan 2013 00:44
Quote: " You talk about "bad software" that you have experienced but don't say what it was."

Steel batallion whas crapp.
star wars whas incredibly laggy and unresponsive.
Kinect sports whas one of the the best so far and reminds alot of sport champions.
Then there whas some game with jumping in an raft in an river?
There whas some dancing game that worked well but iam not an dancer
I have tryed a bunch of games at various friends when they bought it or new games.
I dont remember the names of all the games as some where more or less mini games.
But not lately so i havent tryed the disney game.

I watched some video of mass effect with kinect support that whas cool , but cant find that now on the tube.
Where some motion and voice functions?
But i havent played it with kinect.

Quote: " All you said was that your friend's dog messed up the system."

If its supposed to track your limbs so well why do a waving tail confuse it?
For me so shouldt it mess it up as its tracking my limbs.


Quote: "A Web Cam is not in the same league. These devices are not cameras, they are advanced motion and sound sensors.
"

I whas more showing some cool stuff made with simple web cams.

But the simpliest path would be agk supporting dll files for extra functions like dbp.

This is not a rant or critic on any specific hardware as they all have flaws that i have experienced.

Ps...
And when i talk about motion controls for agk so do have in mind that it should work on all supported platforms, thats why i see some solutions as hard to achive.
If we stagger to support solutions that only work on one platform so are we again going in the wrong direction of wath agk whas intended for?

And then could i also simply be in an bad mood as iam back at work and it s**ks

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 00:41
@BatVink - Yes, you are totally correct. The Kinect can do things that are utterly impossible with a webcam. Suggesting otherwise is at best ignorant. For example, a mono webcam microphone cannot possibly do the audio-spacial tracking that the Kinect's microphone array can do. Taking that together with the depth and colour sensors gives you amazing power.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm not in the slightest bit interested in producing little games for phones. AppGameKit is not just for that. It's also for creating really good interactive graphics on reasonably powerful computers. In other words, I see it as tool in my workshop, and in my workshop I would like to create some exciting real-world applications. My purpose in starting this thread was to say that.

I hope some of you will be interested in the journey!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
JimHawkins
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 00:44
@Cliff - You're a very clever programmer. Buy yourself a Kinect and then come back a little better informed!

-- Jim DO IT FASTER, EASIER AND BETTER WITH AppGameKit FOR PASCAL
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 00:48
Quote: "@Cliff - You're a very clever programmer. Buy yourself a Kinect and then come back a little better informed!"

Iam pretty much in an over all bad mood as its back to work again lol.

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Mobiius
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 02:21
The Kinect sensor is amazing. I have one. I never use it as there's nothing on xbox that takes advantage of it yet, and at 32 years old, I'm certainly not bouncing round my games room playing a Disneyland game!

That said, everything in the Kinect fun labs have been created by hobbyist programmers, for free, using the Kinect SDK. With all the truly talented people in the world I'm sure it won't be long until someone creates an awesome Kinect game. Hell, someone even wrote a wrapper for DBPro!

Although it would be cool for AppGameKit to support both Kinect and Leap, as it's primarily designed for mobile devices this will never happen, (As you can't connect either to a mobile phone,) but you can certainly do it yourself in tier 2 for Windows with the relevant SDK's. Kinect is simple enough to decode once you know what it's outputting.

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
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bjadams
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Posted: 9th Jan 2013 00:54
Mobiius I am 41 years old and I have no problem punching and kicking my way through God of War if that would be possible in any way (not with those stupid Move coloured bulbs)!

Problem is, can they make an action/fight game that can keep up with me?!!!!

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