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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Best way to create and optimize a game level?

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ale870
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 08:40
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Hello,

until now I worked using Unity3D free. In that IDE, I can use the visual world editor (inside unity) to "compose/assemble" my world, my scenario.
Now I'm trying to make something good using DBPro (I'm still learning it ).
My biggest problem now is I cannot understand how to compose and load the scenario (game level).
In my mind I need to compose the scenario using a 3D modeler (I use Silo and AC3D and DeepMesh). After the scenario is completed, I can load it in DBPro at runtime. Here my questions:

1) How can I quickly add lights? I wish to add lights in the 3d modeler, but how to manage them in DBPro during level load?

2) Similar to question (1): how to insert placeholders for spawn points, objects, etc...?

3) How to optimize scenario? For example, I can make a 3d scenario in the 3d modeler, and export it as a single mesh (is it good?). Or I can export the scenario as a plethora of single models (so, maybe, DBPro can better manage visibility for every model?)

Ok, I hope I clarified my problems, and I hope someone can help me for this!

Thank you for your help!

--Alessandro
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 08:58
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Have a look at this thread

You might want to look at apps on here like 3D World Studio, MapScape etc.

There is a trick to modelling and loading, it all comes down to your coding style... [In my opinion]

What DBP related additions do you posses? [Paid Plugins/Community Plugins]

One method is to give a LIMB a specific texture name, another method is to create a debug environment and move the camera or an attached object around and record that position.

Hope this was helpful...

There are a lot of ways to do what you have asked, I am sure others will give theirs too but we require some information before people go on repeating the same things...

Also keep an eye on that thread for now

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ale870
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 09:32
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So if I assemble the scenario using 3D World Studio I can load it directly in DBPro? Does it maintain textures, bump map, lights, etc..? And terrain?
Can I apply some "markers" in 3DWS and find them in DBPro (using limbs? Or how?)?

Thank you!

--Alessandro
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 09:36 Edited at: 8th Jan 2013 09:36
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Quote: "So if I assemble the scenario using 3D World Studio I can load it directly in DBPro? "


Yes, by means of .X or .DBO file formats

Quote: "Does it maintain textures, bump map, lights, etc..?"


Textures, yes somewhat
Bump Maps, should be handled within DBP as far as I know
Lights, are done within DBP

Quote: " And terrain?"


YES! Multi-texture too, I am still experimenting with this however.

Quote: " Can I apply some "markers" in 3DWS and find them in DBPro (using limbs? Or how?)?"


Yes!

Quote: "Thank you!"


You are welcome

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ale870
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 09:54
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Are there any "tricks" to assemble the scenario and optimize it?
I have several dbpro plugins, but I can buy some more if needed. For example: how can I use/apply Dark Occlusion?

One thing more (sorry!): how can I "draw" massive trees (how can I select precise area where they are located?)

Thank you!

--Alessandro
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 10:17
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Quote: "Are there any "tricks" to assemble the scenario and optimize it?"


Coding... Clean coding... Indent, and try to avoid reloading media multiple times, and only load what is required, try to reduce polygon counts as well...

Quote: "I have several dbpro plugins, but I can buy some more if needed. For example: how can I use/apply Dark Occlusion?"


Which do you presently own?
There is a dedicated thread for Dark occlusions in the DBP board I believe... If you cannot find it using the Forum Search below, just ask I will point it out for you...

Quote: "One thing more (sorry!): how can I "draw" massive trees (how can I select precise area where they are located?) "


THATS 2

Quote: "One thing more (sorry!): how can I "draw" massive trees"


There are two packages on the TGC Store, and a few more around these forums... On the Store there is TreeMagik G3 and Tree Party...

The ones on the forum, just look around at the recent 100 threads in DBP and Work In Progress...

Quote: "(how can I select precise area where they are located?)
"


There are a number of ways to do this...
1- Place them within your world editor, like 3D Words Studio [3DWS]
2- Perform a random positioning with code and then use ray casting to get terrain heights to get the Y positions and then place the trees there...
3- more but you get the idea for now...

Going out for the day, will not be able to reply as thoroughly until I get back, hopefully someone can take my place, or you will have to contend with me typing terribly on my mobile >.<

Hope this helped...

Let us know which plugins you currently have and plan to get... keep in mind there are some free plugins called Community Plugins on the forum, namely, Matrix1utils, Advanced2D [A2D], BBB GUI, MapScape and many more... have a nosey around, specially in Program Announcements!

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ale870
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 10:45
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Thank you for your help!
(I will buy 3D World Studio today

--Alessandro
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 11:02
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oh keep in mind... it does not currently work in Windows 8, Not as far as I havetsted... I use Windows 7 to run it...

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ale870
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 11:09
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No problem, I "archived" Win8 in a circular container (trash...)....

--Alessandro
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 11:20
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LOL

I use it and love it... I can personally say I work significantly faster because of it

But yeah... can you list what you already have so we can draw lines haha

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Sasuke
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 11:42
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There's also the long task of building your own engine editor, making everything said here far quicker and easier to access. Editors don't need to be complex, you can make them as simple as you want!
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ale870
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 12:04
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Yes @sasuke I understand what you say, but I wish to avoid to spend weeks and weeks to make an editor if I can buy one for 40 bucks (like 3d world studio).
Then I will "fix" missing parts from dbpro self during load

@FPSC Reloaded Backer why you want to know which modules I have?
If you think I can use some modules to improve this loading process, please simply tell me which ones I need! Thank you!

--Alessandro
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 13:05
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hahahahah my name is MrValentine...

anyway... the reason is so that we can suggest options based on what you do and do not have...

I could say use STYX or use Matrix1Utils...

and not know if you have one or the other... saves guess work, time and repetition...

I can tell you what I have if it helps...

DBP
GDK.NET
3DWS
FPSCreator X9
start of DBP Plugins:
Enhancements
EZRotate {Paid}
LUA/Unity
eXtends
DarkPHYSICS
Dark A.I.
DarkLIGHTS
STYX
DarkINK
DarkNET 2.0+
DarkCLOUDS
DarkDATA
end of DBP Plugins
DarkSHADER
DarkSOURCE
DarkVOICES
PlantLife
TreeMagik G3
DarkMATTER I
3D Crafer 9.0+
Smart Packer Pro 1.8+
Benge Animated Sprites Pack
DarkOCCLUSION
Cartography Shop 4
APP GAME KIT

And much more for me to buy into yet...

so... nothing to be shy of suggestively devious... it is common to ask what products you have... just does not get asked very often... Anyway... yeah get STYX if you do not have it already... it features a lot of useful bits...

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ale870
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 13:44
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Quote: "hahahahah my name is MrValentine..."


OMG! Sorry

I wanted to avoid to tell you which packs I have since I wish you tell me the best solution (if I need to buy a pack, I will do it).
So imagine that I have everything...

--Alessandro
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MrValentine
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 14:14
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hehe ok...

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Sasuke
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 21:10 Edited at: 8th Jan 2013 21:10
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A level editor doesn't take that long to make plus really really speeds up development when you have it. Also you can then just improve upon it making it a valuable asset to your engine!
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Mage
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Posted: 8th Jan 2013 22:34
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I completely agree that a level editor is the best approach. Even professional studios develop in houe tools for their teams.

3D World Studio and the like are very generalized and this maes it easy to access their advanced features but difficult to have or use features they don't have.

Making a level editor in DBP, even one that uses 3D World Studio data gives you a framework to extend functionality and efficiency. More work, better work, and less time used.

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Chris Tate
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Posted: 9th Jan 2013 18:57 Edited at: 9th Jan 2013 19:03
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I agree; however, do not dismiss 3DWS; it is quite similar to editors used by AAA game developers. Actually MapScape is a little closer to modern; although I've had a few minor glitches with it.

You will need your own level editor if you are creating something large; but it might not need to do everything; all without re-invent the wheel.

What I do is build the features not available in 3DWS, in DBP, VB.NET and Blender Python. But that is just me; be sure to check some of my work. Sadly there are no easily extensible map editors for DBP. There's no easy documented way to create 3DWS plugins.

I have also demonstrated parsing 3DWS levels into a Phyics scene in the following video.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Jan 2013 00:21
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I use 3DWS to create my pieces, but my new Dynamic World Simulator will be used for positioning inside my game worlds...

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ale870
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Posted: 10th Jan 2013 00:36
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I tried MapScape and seems amazing. Export correctly textures in dbo and in .x

I think I will work with it.

--Alessandro
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Jan 2013 00:42
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have patience...

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ale870
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Posted: 10th Jan 2013 00:47
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I have it, but 3dws seems really limited (and old..). MapScape is also limited (i.e. doesn't have terrain features), but exports textures correctly.
I also tried DeepMesh. It seems very good for world building.
Now I try deled.

--Alessandro
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MrValentine
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Posted: 10th Jan 2013 00:49
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Your call

I have not many issues with 3DWS, aside from it using OpenGL...

let us know how you get on with DeLeD

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Chris Tate
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Posted: 10th Jan 2013 01:09 Edited at: 10th Jan 2013 01:20
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Quote: "I have it, but 3dws seems really limited (and old..). MapScape is also limited (i.e. doesn't have terrain features)"


Not quite accurate...

You can use what works best for you. Personally 3DWS works best for me; trust me I have mapped for CSS, RTCW and my DBP game and know what features are important. Just be warned, there is more to map creation than the part in the editor; you have to consider the programming part too; and how these editors export the .X file; which cannot load quickly.

Your statement above is not true because MapScape uses the displace mesh tool to create terrains; quite similar to Valve Hammer does it for the Source engine games such as HL2, CSS, CSGO....

I would not be using 3DWS if it was limited; it certainly is piecing together my cities and islands with no lag. One of its most important features that is often overlooked and unmentioned in the adverts that I cannot live without for Sports Fiction, is its texture baking; rendering views to file. Critical for top quality; not even Blender does this so effortlessly for game ready textures.

My advice; The best thing to do is play around with the demo versions of all the editors; do some serious programming then see what map files actually work properly, which ones work best; and what works with shaders, and what actually loads in less than 10 minutes lol. THEN pick your editor.

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ale870
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Posted: 10th Jan 2013 01:22 Edited at: 10th Jan 2013 01:23
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@ it was trivial that was my personal opinion, not the universal truth
Furthermore consider that I'm a professional programmer, not 3d artist. I need to find a decent tool to make my scenario, a 3d world editor "batteries included".
For modelling I use AC3D and Silo, and I judge them as really wonderful (for my job and competencies, and for my final targets).

I have no doubt that you judge 3dws very good. I simply noticed that its features seems limited (my opinion!).
I'm testing more world editors. FOr example, Deled seems really full featured.

I noticed, generally speaking, that 3d editors manage ".x" better than dbo. I think I will export models in that format, load in dbpro, then export/save to dbo.

EDIT: I think DBPro could do the same thing that JME does: when you import a model (e.g. in obj format) jme automatically save the same model in its internal format (optimized). That's very good!

--Alessandro
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Chris Tate
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Posted: 10th Jan 2013 02:05 Edited at: 10th Jan 2013 02:17
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Still, I bet you will end up in 3DWS or Mapscape in the long run. I can just feel it lol...

DeepMesh didn't work on my system.

With Deled my mapping instincts just bother me. You know that feeling when you try some new programming language or software tool and something just doesn't feel right, that unconventional feeling,That's what I get when using Deled you know, export menu that is not in the File menu; renaming objects doesn't store the old name in the text field, simple left click or right click doesn't select objects in all viewports... You have to select objects pressing more than one button.... You know, industry convention. XD

Particularly with its 'System.Forms' ala Microsoft Word style key events for exploration where you have to wait 2 seconds for the keyboard to start moving the camera. At least the CAD style white overkill backdrop and thin lines can be changed, But I don't really like seeing a list of all my objects; I don't want to see rock 233, rock 232, door handle 2329, table leg 232 in my list, and I do not want to have to name and housekeep such trivial sub objects. Great for entities, but I have my game editor for that. Object lists are fine in modelling but not so practical for worlds. Someone who is used to selecting with a list might like that, but hmm...

Anyway, at least it works and has more buttons than 3DWS; and does promise alot with its features.

Ultimately you know your game better than me; perhaps Deled does what you need it to do better.

I'll clarify that I also Blender which is Python based. 3DWS handles my collision mesh for the world; everything else gets done in Blender and my own in-game level editor for those logical entities.

Quote: "
EDIT: I think DBPro could do the same thing that JME does: when you import a model (e.g. in obj format) jme automatically save the same model in its internal format (optimized). That's very good!"


Also I think DBP should support OBJ format altogether. That does for 3D programs, what the PNG format does for 2D programs; its universal and yet DBP can't load them.

Edit:

Quote: "I noticed, generally speaking, that 3d editors manage ".x" better than dbo. I think I will export models in that format, load in dbpro, then export/save to dbo."


Forgot to mention; check out how DBP exports your .x file to .dbo. I've never tried that, not sure what result that will bring with textures and limbs. Let me know.

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