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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] Goverment and Violent Games

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old_School
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Posted: 13th Jan 2013 20:54
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I’ve worked as an educator now for a few years and I can tell its poor parenting. Just an fYI to all the parents in the world, we are not babysitters and we cannot/will not teach your kids right/wrong. We are simply there to teach them basic Math/English etc. Maybe if parents would stop thinking of as a second parent, we would see better behaved kids.
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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 13th Jan 2013 21:53
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I'll wait for Thraxas to respond to that, old school. Not my domain.

I'd say that some kids don't respond to "good" parenting.

On that note, I'd like people to define "good" and "bad" parenting. Physical discipline? Well, you're getting them in line, but also making it feel like violence is natural right? But no, if you don't smack them, they'll run ragged with injecting marijuanas and start bringing Howitzers to school.

I can say that I know a-holes who've had parents with plenty of money and nice houses, and people living off welfare. Despite common belief, there are aspects of a personality that are there from birth, some dependent on the peer groups they have, and some that just seem to happen.
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old_School
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Posted: 13th Jan 2013 22:15 Edited at: 13th Jan 2013 22:19
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Parenting is not about money or your welfare state. It’s about simply providing proper attention to the child and helping them developmental and physically in a healthy manor. It’s not rocket science, it more less common sense and basic instinct as a parent. The problem is parenting requires work and time which is a problem for some people. Some prefer to spend their time working late hours, others spend it being immature or other various other ways instead of giving proper direction to their child or children.

Old people kind of got it right when they said "you kids today are lazy". Well this was very true to a degree for a small group of people, in today’s standard the number of lazy people has grown and turned into lazy parents. I’m not on a crusade to blame every parent but those who blame society need to look in the mirror.
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Thraxas
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 00:33 Edited at: 14th Jan 2013 00:39
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Quote: "I’ve worked as an educator now for a few years and I can tell its poor parenting. Just an fYI to all the parents in the world, we are not babysitters and we cannot/will not teach your kids right/wrong. We are simply there to teach them basic Math/English etc. Maybe if parents would stop thinking of as a second parent, we would see better behaved kids."


This is where I would disagree with you 99%. That 1% is because I agree that we're not babysitters.

My current school's Vision Statement: To develop competent, responsible citizens for the future

I'll even go to the New Basics Project (undertaken by Education Queensland, and as I currently work in Queensland it's easiest for me to access now) and take one of the Productive Pedagogies:

Recognition of difference
We want to ensure that students know about and value a range of cultures, create positive human relationships, respect individuals, and help to create a sense of community.


Education is much more than basic maths/english/science/history etc and to focus solely on that would be a disservice to the children you work with.

How would you create a competent, responsible citizen if you never discussed (and I'll be incredibly broad here) right and wrong? How can you help someone create positive human relationships or to respect inviduals if you never take the time to discuss right and wrong? Topics like this naturally occur everyday within the school environment with stealing and bullying being the two that instantly jump to mind.

Quote: " we cannot/will not teach your kids right/wrong"


Not only do we have time to do such things but we must do such things. There is so much more to education than simply the facts and figures that so many people think is all we do and it's really disheartening to see what you wrote above.

Quote: "Maybe if parents would stop thinking of as a second parent, we would see better behaved kids."


I'll talk about this from a primary school perspective here. Outside of their immediate family, a teacher is who a primary school aged child spends most of their time with. Now for some students, where their parents both work full time it's possible that you spend more time interacting with that child than their parents do on a daily basis. So yes even though you are not that child's parent you certainly have to take some of the responsibility in teaching that child about more than simply facts and figures. Even if you're (and not referencing you here old_school) a terrible teacher your students will still look up to you and begin to emulate you.

If a parent is not teaching their child right from wrong, and a teacher isn't teaching their child right from wrong. Who is?

ADDITIONAL
I see you posted while I was typing, I'm a slow typer.

This:
Quote: "Some prefer to spend their time working late hours,"


Do people really prefer to work late hours or do they do it so they can afford to live? It's no good being at home with your kids all the time if you can't afford the roof over their head, their clothes or food.

Stuttering in images! Can you help?
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MrValentine
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 00:53
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Quote: "start bringing Howitzers to school."


I would vote for that!

[Paper cannons of course- maybe tracing paper just to be safe]

Will contribute to history classes, science classes, mathemathics and even help recruit new soldiers lol

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old_School
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 00:54 Edited at: 14th Jan 2013 00:55
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Im not saying were limited to just education but im saying parents think we should be the only person to teach their kids right/wrong etc. We do at a certain degree teach them right and wrong but it techincally should not be us teaching kids "hey don't do that in school". I teach at a good school but Ive seen some of the kids & parents and wonder sometimes.
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That Guy John
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 01:03
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Thraxas, where exactly do you teach? I've got a buddy that is suppose to be moving to England in several months. I think he would want someone like having someone like you teaching his kids.
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Quik
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 01:21
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Quote: "Not only do we have time to do such things but we must do such things. There is so much more to education than simply the facts and figures that so many people think is all we do and it's really disheartening to see what you wrote above."


Was about to say that actually - i dunno how courses work over in other countries, but here in sweden anyway we have a course named well basicly "community" - that is dedicated to how communities work - i do not dare count how many times gun laws - yes, gun laws in a country which havent got guns in homes, have gotten up there, or games and violence - as well as simple stuff like how to dress for work, or the dangers of "greenhouse effect" - not to mention social behaviour and whatnot - the latest there, being included in such things as swedish courses and whatnot.

Your a teacher - I would find a teacher who does not offer up occational 15-30 minutes of study for a off topic discussion about the world - as a matter of fact, a teacher who does not BOND with their students - will essentially be the booring, uninteresting teacher. I know I wouldnt listen to him.

Having a bit of fun - and swaying from topic from time to time is exactly what makes a good teacher - not how accuratly you know your math.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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rolfy
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 01:29 Edited at: 14th Jan 2013 03:00
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It about respect, teach a kid to respect themselves and they will respect you for it.


I am actually very impressed by your attitude Thraxas and much of what you say is true, but it still remains that when a generation implodes on itself and adopts the selfish me,me culture which really means "I am going to sit on my butt and get wasted because its my right to do so" and there is no home interaction or structure, then your going to see recurrent generations that go further down the toilet. Its very hard for teachers to take sole responsibility for a kids upbringing and the job is made so much harder by 'bad' parenting which often means 'not around or not even on this planet' whether rich or poor.
Its true that past generations are hypocrites who merely patronise younger people, and ignore the fact they themselves had their own brand of devilry going on, kid's see right through that. To me this is probably a part of the problem.

Quote: "Having a bit of fun - and swaying from topic from time to time is exactly what makes a good teacher"

Its the same thing really, having a laugh shows you are human just like them and an adult in a position of authority who goofs around a bit is respected more for being willing to make fool of themselves (something kids are very self conscious about).


Just an aside but doing that around here has seen certain people here being hauled up for it by a mod, I understand its just...well I have problems

Just another aside to Coffeegrunt, I am from Glasgow myself

"Nope games aren't the problem."
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Thraxas
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 01:54
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Quote: "Thraxas, where exactly do you teach? I've got a buddy that is suppose to be moving to England in several months. I think he would want someone like having someone like you teaching his kids."


I live in Australia now and I teach in quite a big school in North Queensland.

Quote: " when a generation implodes on itself and adopts the selfish me,me culture which really means "I am going to sit on my butt and get wasted because its my right to do so" and there is no home interaction or structure, then your going to see recurrent generations that go further down the toilet. Its very hard for teachers to take sole responsibility for a kids upbringing and the job is made so much harder by 'bad' parenting which often means 'not around or not even on this planet' parenting whether rich or poor."


I agree. I feel that society at the moment is one where blame is always assigned to someone else. A lot of people seem unable to take responsibility for their own actions and always look for someone else to blame...and then sue them

Take, for example, Christmas Day which I spent this year with some of my wife's extended family One of the people there was going out with my wife's cousin. He has one of those breathalyzer devices in his car which means he has to breath into it and if he's over the limit the engine won't start. It also has to be blown into every 7 minutes while driving to ensure you didn't just get one of your mates at the pub to blow into it before you drove off.

The reason this is in his car is because he has been caught numerous times driving over the limit and all the previous punishments didn't stop him doing it. To hear him speak about how unfair it was that it was in his car, and how it was unfair that it cost him $250 or so a month to keep it in his car made my blood boil. He has no one to blame but himself but he kept going on about how it was simply a cash cow for the police.

Anyway, this leads nicely into video games and violence. I know both sides are bias, as a player and hobbiest creator I have my own bias when it come to violent games but to hear those against violent games talk you would think it was the only factor in what has happened. It's the scapegoat, it is what is to blame. All other factors are ignored to focus on games. Do these people really believe that if violent games were banned that violence would stop?

Stuttering in images! Can you help?
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MrValentine
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 02:01
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Quote: "Do these people really believe that if violent games were banned that violence would stop?"


> Sheep Factor

Sadly You could say this is the reality...

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rolfy
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 02:08 Edited at: 14th Jan 2013 02:43
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What they dont get is...kids are simply playing games like they have always done and those kids were once you.

I remember getting bashed around and had my share of bloody noses from playing as a kid, the violence to me is less real in a video game

Edit*
Quote: "Do these people really believe that if violent games were banned that violence would stop?"

Meh! it used to be music, "play this backwards and listen to the Devils voice, now go and do his bidding" been hearing that one since at least the seventies. They'll move on to something else soon.

"Nope games aren't the problem."
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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 02:48
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Oh silly humans.

I have no signature.
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xplosys
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 02:55
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I'm not one who feels that violent video games lead to violence, any more than I feel that playing PacMan leads to cannibalism, or PopIt creates a deep-seated hatred of balloons. I do however wonder if truly realistic violence is necessary, and if we should be striving to achieve it.

I love FPS games (the good ones) for their immersive environments where I think that realism plays a huge part. I recently watched a video of some military type gamplay (the particular game is not important) and I was amazed at the realistic killing.

Does it need to be so realistic? Is that the draw? Would you be less likely to play a game with less realistic killing or less violence?

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

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rolfy
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 03:08
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You have a very good point xplosys, but who's going to decide whats 'over the top' when it comes to Adult games.

Quote: "Would you be less likely to play a game with less realistic killing or less violence?"
If it gets real enough to make you throw up you know its gone too far.

"Nope games aren't the problem."
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fallen one
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 03:12 Edited at: 14th Jan 2013 03:14
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Instead of banning guns or video games, why dont they just get to the real crux of the problem and ban psychopaths, very easy to diagnose with a CAT scan.

Reminds me of the Voight-Kampff machine for detecting replicant humans. Which is really what a psychopath is.
Voight-Kampff machine -
A very advanced form of lie detector that measures contractions of the iris muscle and the presence of invisible airborne particles emitted from the body. The bellows were designed for the latter function and give the machine the menacing air of a sinister insect. The VK is used primarily by Blade Runners to determine if a suspect is truly human by measuring the degree of his EMPATHIC response through carefully worded questions and statements.
—Description from the original 1982 Blade Runner press kit.

Diagnose psychopaths with a CAT scan when viewing emotive images.
Thats the 4% of the population that spoil it for everyone else out of the picture, though I will say only a very tiny proportion of them are killers. Perhaps we should start with politicians and the upper rains of power of large corporations, seeing as that's a haven for psychopaths from influential familys. After all, they destroy more lives than the low level psychopath that shoots up a school.


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xplosys
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 03:14
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it shouldn't be realistic or violent. There is a market for everything and no one has to play what they don't like. I'm looking for thoughts from a range of players/ages.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 09:14
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Quote: "Just another aside to Coffeegrunt, I am from Glasgow myself"


Paisley, so I'm in the neighborhood. How's sunny ol' 'Merica?

Also, I find myself agreeing with Thraxas. As someone not too long out of high school, I can tell you that it's instantly apparent whether a teacher cares about you as a human with a future, or you as a target grade in the final GCSEs.

You feel more willing to please the former category. It's not necessarily about strictness or leniency, as I've had teachers on either end of that spectrum who still managed to work the lesson.
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Van B
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 14:34
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http://www2.tbo.com/news/pinellas-news/2013/jan/10/st-pete-man-18-dies-after-accidentally-shooting-se-ar-603022/

Videogames are not the problem, allowing guns to make it into the hands of idiots/inexperienced/mentally ill is the problem.

I'm getting sick of the kneejerk, ''make guns illegal and criminals will still use them'' response though. See, the problem is that people make a distinction between themselves and criminals, they don't see that they themselves are a problem. Yeah, so long as you haven't killed anyone yet, you should be allowed a firearm. It's rediculous - I say they should clamp right down on firearms, make it a miserible, tedious and expensive endeavor to own a firearm. But allow non-lethal options, like tazers, pepper spray, and shotguns with non-lethal rounds for home protection. It can't be everyone elses problem anymore, it's clearly EVERYONE's problem.

As for banning violent computer games, well ''You think coders obey the law, you must be stupid''. All we would end up with is an underground gaming scene, where the morals would be cast aside. It would be a p'ing contest to see who could make the most disturbingly violent game. Right now we have distinct non-realism in violent games, the problem is that realism is easier and cheaper to produce than OTT videogame violence.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
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xplosys
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 14:59
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@Van B
Did you just use the same argument for games that you discounted for guns, or did I miss the sarcasm in there?

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

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Benjamin
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 15:25
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I have to say, I agree with Van B. Although I can't see guns being outlawed in the US any time soon; I'd think a good compromise would be to give tighter restrictions on muzzle velocity, magazine capacity, that sort of thing. At least then mass killing will be somewhat harder, while 'law-abiding citizens' can have their guns for self-defense.

... ANYWAY, isn't this topic disallowed by the AUP or have things been changed?

You're signature has been erased by a mod
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Van B
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 15:35
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Well I'm saying that the same argument people have against extending gun law, is the exact same problem we'd face if they extended laws against violent games. They say the laws against gun ownership would be ignored by criminals, but laws against violence in videogames would have the same non-impact. Nobody can stop gun crime, nobody can stop violent videogames, rock music, horror movies and Ryan Reynolds, because the law, government, is not in total control and they never will be. Laws will often be defied just so someone can proove a point...

...Illegal to own a gun = get a gun to proove you are free.
...Illegal to make a violent videogame = make a violent videogame to proove you are free.

I certainly don't like the idea of an underground game scene - we saw what was produced in the 80's, even back then there was some really nasty games doing the rounds, I don't want to see what would happen now with the growth of the internet.

It's all political, hell - if they made it illegal to chop your own arm off, some people would go and buy an axe for that very purpose. There are people out there who would fight to the death for their right to own a firearm, and I'm not talking about nut cases here, I'm talking about wealthy, powerful and famous people, people with more guns than common sense, people with more money than common sense. I mean, it might just be the web pages I read, but I'm seeing a helluva lot more call to end videogame violence than to change gun law - surely they've got it all backwards!

I firmly believe that violent videogames are an outlet for people who might be a threat to society - nobody seems to do anything for or about these people until they pick up a weapon for real. Show me someone who actually believes that videogames cause these psychological issues and I'll show you an idiot. If anything, I believe that violent games allow these people to vent, and that could certainly save lives.

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 16:04
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Quote: "Your a teacher - I would find a teacher who does not offer up occational 15-30 minutes of study for a off topic discussion about the world - as a matter of fact, a teacher who does not BOND with their students - will essentially be the booring, uninteresting teacher. I know I wouldnt listen to him.

Having a bit of fun - and swaying from topic from time to time is exactly what makes a good teacher - not how accuratly you know your math."
I couldnt agree more.

As for violent videogames, a few years back I read an article after a shooting at a school in finland. The article said this (this is the same grammar that was used in the article) The night before the shooting, the student warmed up by playing the death game far cry 2. Later in the article, the author wrote "there are more chriminals that play videogames than smokers that get cancer." And that fact is suposed to convince people that "death games" are bad
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xplosys
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 16:39
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I just want clarify one thing for those who don't understand the American gun culture.

The problem with gun control or even controlling the type of guns and mags we can own, is that if the government is successful in doing so, only the government will have powerful weapons. On the surface you might think... What's wrong with that? If you just need guns for self defense, why do you need high powered, automatic weapons?

When you realize that we have the right to bear arms specifically for the purpose of defending ourselves from our government, you should begin to see the issue. When our constitution was written, our founding fathers realized that governments have a tendency to get very powerful and forget that they serve the people, not the other way around. They built into our constitution a way for us to protect ourselves and throw off a government that gets out of line.

If we trade away our rights for perceived security, we loose our ability to protect ourselves, and ultimately our freedom.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 16:45
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There are already innumerable numbers of firearms out there in the general public; legal and illegal. Tightening down on firearm purchases will do nothing to change that fact. Closing loopholes at gunshows and personal sales (that do not need a background check) would be something to consider fixing.

Criminals will get their weapons any way they can - FACT.

Psychopaths do not care about "Gun Free Zones" at all - FACT.

The millions of weapons owned and used (legal or illegal) in the United States, will not "magically" disappear overnight if the government says so - FACT.

Wishing you had a gun to protect you and your Family when a criminal (or psychopath) comes to your front door will not help you to resolve the situation in your favor - FACT.

You CAN, in fact, stop gun violence against yourself and/or your Family by owning and using a firearm - FACT.

[b]-Keith

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Van B
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 16:57
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The constitution was written in 1787.

It's been over 200 years America, what have you learned in that time?

I got a fever, and the only prescription, is more memes.
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xplosys
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 16:58
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Quote: "what have you learned in that time?"


That our founding fathers were right.

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

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RAXMUX Games
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 18:12
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Quote: "The millions of weapons owned and used (legal or illegal) in the United States, will not "magically" disappear overnight if the government says so - FACT.
"


But in time they'll fade.

Quote: "Psychopaths do not care about "Gun Free Zones" at all - FACT."


But if they can't get a hold of a gun they can't shoot.

A gun ban in the states would not make any difference now, but it will later. The constitution is far to old to be followed blindly, and besides, Us don't follow it so well on any level.

Just call me Raxmux
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Quik
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 18:14 Edited at: 14th Jan 2013 18:16
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Quote: "I just want clarify one thing for those who don't understand the American gun culture.

The problem with gun control or even controlling the type of guns and mags we can own, is that if the government is successful in doing so, only the government will have powerful weapons. On the surface you might think... What's wrong with that? If you just need guns for self defense, why do you need high powered, automatic weapons?

When you realize that we have the right to bear arms specifically for the purpose of defending ourselves from our government, you should begin to see the issue. When our constitution was written, our founding fathers realized that governments have a tendency to get very powerful and forget that they serve the people, not the other way around. They built into our constitution a way for us to protect ourselves and throw off a government that gets out of line.

If we trade away our rights for perceived security, we loose our ability to protect ourselves, and ultimately our freedom.
"



And the difference here to other countries are.....`?


Quote: "You CAN, in fact, stop gun violence against yourself and/or your Family by owning and using a firearm - FACT."


provided you got the courage to do so, and not minding living with the consequences of actually having killed a man - wether under threat or not.
Just because you have a gun does NOT mean you have the right set of mind to use it - even less using it responsibly.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
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xplosys
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 18:30
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Quote: "And the difference here to other countries are.....`?"

I don't understand your point. What does another country have to do with gun culture in America? Are you agreeing or disagreeing?

Quote: "Just because you have a gun does NOT mean you have the right set of mind to use it - even less using it responsibly."

And who do you feel should make that determination?

!retupmoc eht ni deppart m'I !pleH

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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 18:31
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Quote: "But if they can't get a hold of a gun they can't shoot."

As I've said; rainbows and wishes....it's impossible at this point. They're everywhere. We need solutions that are actually real, and not based off of "what we'd like to happen".

-Keith

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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 18:33 Edited at: 14th Jan 2013 18:35
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Quote: "provided you got the courage to do so, and not minding living with the consequences of actually having killed a man"


Are you serious? My Family is at home, I'll absolutely take care of it. It is my RESPONSIBILITY to take care of my Family. Could you do the same, or would you just roll over? Your argument makes ZERO sense.

EDIT: Nevermind, this is obviously turning into another gun control debate. Locked.

-Keith

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KeithC
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Posted: 14th Jan 2013 18:35
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Flame

This thread has been locked due to the unmanageable number of flame responses. Please refer to section 3.11 - 3.12 of the Acceptable Usage Policy for full details:

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?gf=aup#forum

AUP Section 3.17 ...Moderators shall, at their discretion, determine what constitutes a violation of these terms, along with generally accepted netiquette standards, and can take action against those who violate these rules.

If you contributed to the reason for locking, you may now find yourself on moderation, or in extreme cases a ban.

-Keith

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