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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Creating a General Purpose Editor

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Sasuke
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Posted: 1st Feb 2013 16:16
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So I've been thinking about creating a general purpose editor for the community that can be easily manipulated to be integrated in your own engines. I'll will be making it in stages so that we can develop it together, share ideas, best approaches and so on. Hopefully we can all learn how to develop are own editors to make developing are games far more efficient. So lets being with a question.

What do we want from our General Purpose Editors? The idea being that it's a base to work from for are own engines, so lets just look at that base first or how it should be coded so it's easy to play with.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 1st Feb 2013 22:10
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I think editors are rather specific to what they're designed to create, at least game-wise anyway. I'm not sure how you plan to accomplish a general purpose editor. A 3D map editor is going to be completely different than a 2D tilemap editor.

"You're not going crazy. You're going sane in a crazy world!" ~Tick
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Sasuke
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2013 10:46
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The idea behind the thread is that we build and develop an editor over time. This editor well probably have basic functionality but can be developed on to be more specific. I want to do this in stages so that people that are looking for a more engine specific editor can take the ideas found in this editor and put it in their engine. We could discuss or demo engine specific content.

Or we could design a more dedicated editor and use it as a learning tool for developing their own editors. < (thinking about it now, this seems like a better idea)

As of 2D and 3D = 2 editors.
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Chris Tate
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2013 12:42 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2013 12:55
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So how far have you got? Do you have something started? What plugins do you intend to use to create this thing?

From time to time I'd be willing to help. It would be useful to have a solution for a number of level/game creation issues with DBP.

Are you thinking of starting an SVN server, or somewhere to manage your source code?

Edit:

I would have to say that I would advise you to consider it a 3D editor with 2D options. Any 2D operations can just simply swap the Y axis as sprite priorty or something. You just swap the draw operation to shift and tile images/sprites instead of 3D objects when running in 2D mode. That way it would be one editor.

With collaboration, everyones motivation will differ and conflict. People will want different things out of the tool and will more likely be motivated to add what they want, otherwise you will struggle to find help.

Warning
You will likely have to show your dedication to the project with proof of progress otherwise the MODs might lock the thread according to this:

Quote: "Rule 1 - Show some signs of progress

We do not accept Team Requests for projects that are yet to start. You MUST have something to show for the project so far. This can be in the form of: screen shots, source code, game downloads / test programs, illustrations, design documents and design concepts. "


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Sasuke
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2013 13:01 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2013 13:24
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Quote: "So how far have you got? Do you have something started? What plugins do you intend to use to create this thing?"


I've got a fully working editor for my engine that has been in the works for 3 years. The point of the thread is to start at the beginning, so people can learn how to develop there own editors, simple or advanced. As of plugins, Ian M's as a standard, advanced 2d, imagekit and that's about it. When it comes to GUI I make my own and its an import part. It helps you learn how to work with 2d and deal with performance issue that you will hit.

Quote: "From time to time I'd be willing to help. It would be useful to have a solution for a number of level/game creation issues with DBP.
"


Cheers

Quote: "Are you thinking of starting an SVN server, or somewhere to manage your source code?"


Haven't thought about this yet, but will look into cause I've read about the benefits of SVN server and etc...

EDIT
Quote: "I would have to say that I would advise you to consider it a 3D editor with 2D options. Any 2D operations can just simply swap the Y axis as sprite priorty or something. You just swap the draw operation to shift and tile images/sprites instead of 3D objects when running in 2D mode. That way it would be one editor."


I didn't want to make this to confusing to people that just wanted a simple editor that say only handle 3d or 2d. But I did say about discussing other techniques and or showing examples of other ways of doing things.

Quote: "With collaboration, everyones motivation will differ and conflict. People will want different things out of the tool and will more likely be motivated to add what they want, otherwise you will struggle to find help."


I think you didn't understand exactly what I'm doing. I'm creating an editor as a learners tool for people wanting to create their own. We can discuss ideas or techniques while I'm making it in stages. People who want specific things in this tool can take whatever code that is here and edit it to there on specifications. I'm not asking for people to help me develop it.

Quote: "Warning
You will likely have to show your dedication to the project with proof of progress otherwise the MODs might lock the thread "


This is not a team request. I said at the top that I'll be making it. Like anything on here, people join in to help or discuss what I'm doing and that's all I'm asking. As of progress, I don't see why it applies here because people just post asking a question which is what I did. The progress comes out of the question. I'll be waiting forever over in Game Design Theory plus there's less traffic. Then I'd have to make another thread to do it. Why not just do it all in one?

Though I'm already putting some stuff together to post, talking about the basics of interaction and navigation.
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Jeff Miller
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2013 15:00
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I think a general purpose editor would be quite useful, because some things are more easily done in an integrated environment. For example, I've been developing a little home-made editor that defines "zones" as used in Matrix1Util_21, and stores the 2 defining vertices in a file (with zone number if one wishes to dedicate one, and a zone name). It then capitalizes on the zones to create single-sided 3D plane objects with Matrix1Util_18 in areas where you would want an object to conform to a face of a zone. For example, if you have a zone that represents a room, it is then simple to create objects to serve as a floor and ceiling in the same editor.
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MrValentine
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2013 16:21
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Interesting... I may learn from or contribute to this...

I suppose this is in the Concept stage for now...

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Chris Tate
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2013 19:10 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2013 19:11
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Quote: "The point of the thread is to start at the beginning, so people can learn how to develop there own editors, simple or advanced."


So people can learn.

Quote: "I didn't want to make this to confusing to people that just wanted a simple editor that say only handle 3d or 2d. But I did say about discussing other techniques and or showing examples of other ways of doing things."


Yeah, that's understandable if this is for learning.

Quote: "This is not a team request. I said at the top that I'll be making it. "


Quote: "I'll will be making it in stages so that we can develop it together,"


Quote: "I'm not asking for people to help me develop it"


Quote: "The idea behind the thread is that we build and develop"


Quote: "I've been thinking about creating a general purpose editor for the community that can be easily manipulated to be integrated in your own engines."




It would be cool to have a general purpose editor, I'd love to help out, but I am just warning you out of experience; I asked the questions because I've seen these kinds posts many times here and on other development forums, they tend to get locked or die off; especially the ones that pitch with a couple of paragraphs of text.

I hope that many people benefit from this idea.

But saying things like "developing it together", "I've been thinking about it" just gave a completely different impression to what you are implying is for community learning based on a project that has been in the works for 3 years. The first double paragraph post did not look convincing. And the quotes above are just a little bit contradictory, just a little.

So any screenshots of your GUI concepts, any tips?

GUI can be quite difficult for new users of DBP, is that something the editor will produce aswell?

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Sasuke
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2013 19:59 Edited at: 2nd Feb 2013 19:59
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I get what your saying Chris, though I semi planned this all. Given the nature of forums I can't plan for everything but I've got the idea I'm running on down. As of screen shots, I thought there's no point showing mine cause what will be produced here will not even come close to it.

Quote: "So any screenshots of your GUI concepts, any tips?"

Not to long ago I wrote a tutorial thread about creating a menu, though was locked due to me moving and not having internet for like 3 months, but I would of added a ton more info. Have a quick look at this and it should help you to see how I explain and or showcase things: Creating a Menu

I've created a lot of GUI's in DBP:

Maya Style (which is what I'm working on currently):


And others:



A very early editor years ago I started on:


Anyway I've had alot of GUI experience.
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thenerd
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2013 21:38
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I'd contribute to something like this I'd also recommend using SVN if this is going to be an open source project.

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Sasuke
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2013 21:49
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Quote: "I'd also recommend using SVN if this is going to be an open source project."


I really never consider this being open source... though it end up being that way. Though if it does it'll run along side this cause it'll be far more advanced than this is!
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Zero G Scott
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2013 16:20 Edited at: 3rd Feb 2013 16:23
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Great info in your GUI thread, definatly something for me to pour over and learn from. So far my biggest concern has been finding a fast solution for text, which seams to be a major slowdown in DBP. Any specific result you could share about this would be great.

A 3D menu system is definatly an interest as well.

Thank you for this!
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Ruwbaen
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2013 22:49
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I was thinking the same a week ago, I started to work it out and I'm almost finished now. I had the same thing for 2d and 3d, but keep in mind, doing it for 2D is much easier as you can use software like paint.net or photoshop to. But for placing tiles it can be usefull to have your own editor. For creating general games I made an editor which looks like a piece of paper, but you can draw 2D shapes on it which positions, types and colors are saved in a xml file. And yes, you can adjust the name, the color and even what kind of shape. Current options are a line, rectangle, circle, ellipse or a square. The installer is already uploaded on my website, but that one is still in progress. I'll let you guys hear something soon!

"Ce n'est pas un bijou normale monsieur Will" - Chaque Dupont in my game Jack Will
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Nytus Sermus
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Posted: 4th Feb 2013 07:33 Edited at: 4th Feb 2013 07:47
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@ sasuke- I understand everything your saying, though i also understand the mentality of some of these forum members as well. The main things you need to decide right now are:
Is this going to be:
A: Free or Commercial? if free then obviously there wont be any support for the software- : use at your own risk and without much official help.
B: Open Source or not? this is a trade off either way, if its not open source then its going to be hard to have many people involved.
If it is open source then your not going to have alot of control over it, or its exclusivity- like he said people do what they want to do.
As for me, i'm with you... I have been working on developing something with almost the same ideas for the design process. The only main difference is I wasn't trying to create a general purpose editor, I am trying to create the All-In-One solution, one that was capable of doing everything, at least in 3 dimensions. The 2d version or aspect would be much easier, as there isn't near as much to deal with in 2 dimensions, in my opinion.
Check out my post here (and your right, GameDesignTheory is not the place to post.)

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=203101&b=19

If your serious and you want to join forces, just email me or respond here.

EDIT: To vaidate that im not just a fat mouth here a couple of screens of what im working on; the interface isn't professional looking yet, but fully functional.






Here is the video where im doing real time limb creation, editing, animation all in one.


You could be done already.....stop trying to re-invent the wheel.
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Chris Tate
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Posted: 4th Feb 2013 09:23
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@Sasuke


Quote: "Not to long ago I wrote a tutorial ... Have a quick look"


Yeah, you are good at creating GUI. I like how Valve and the Blender Foundation design their stuff.

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Sasuke
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Posted: 9th Feb 2013 04:11
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@Zero G Scott, Cheers and I will cover various techniques of displaying text most efficiently cause this is also a battle I've had for ages and picked up a few things over the years.

@Ruwbaen, I'll look into your project

@Nytus Sermus, It will be free and it's used and a learning tool so others can make there own. It's not fully open source, but like anything people will want to contribute ideas, but mostly I will be doing the implementing. I've checked out your work, really liking what you've done so far and the animation is cool.

@Chris Tate, Cheers

Currently guys I'm getting everything together and writing tutorials. The current one and most interesting is Immediate GUI's, which is a way of creating GUI's that don't require any set up. If used affectively you can just about create anything with minimal effort:

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Nytus Sermus
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Posted: 10th Feb 2013 05:06
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@ sasuke -hey that immediate gui's sounds cool, i'd like to see that working sometime. right now im implementing a windows type gui just to see if it makes things easier.

You could be done already.....stop trying to re-invent the wheel.
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