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Geek Culture / Buying a New PC

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 19:17
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Today was pay day (woop woop) and I've decided to finally buy my desktop. I was looking at building one myself, but I am willing to pay the little extra to have it build for me...saves making mistakes or contacting another geek to do it for me.

I am looking to pay between £500 and £600 and would probably add upgrades myself when games require more and more oompf. The site I've been mostly looking at is DinoPC because of its value-for-money, but I have been fooled by value for money before and bought this Acer laptop I'm typing on for £700, had its keyboard replaced in the first year under warranty, later suffered overheating problems, which then decided to die on me when out of warranty and cost me £150 to fix. So note my slight caution here. Looking at reviews, DinoPC sounds like a good idea, I get 1 year parts & labour and 3 years labour as standard going through them. Though if somebody recommends me to steer clear of them, I'm sure I'll listen.

I've specced up this system for £550.20
AMD FX 4170 Black Edition Quad Core 4.2ghz.
Windows 8 64 Bit
8gb DDR3 1,333mhz (1x8gb)
500gb S-ATAIII 6.0gb/s
22x DVD Rewriter
NVidia Geforce GTX650 Ti 1gb
Onboard 7.1 Audio
Xigamech Asgard 382 Window - Case
450w Corsair VS PSU

To me, as somebody who's probably a few years behind on gaming PC specs the specs sound pretty damn good. Especially having a Quad Core 4.2ghz CPU, which is one hell of a step up from Dual Core 2.2ghz. Is that acceptable for the price? I know I am willing to go up to £600 if necessary, but I am trying to keep it as close to £500 as possible.

However, I am thinking Windows 8 64-bit would be pretty unnecessary (so it's £60 off of the price), I've got Windows 8 Pro 32 & 64 bit disks from when I upgraded, sure they won't be activated versions, but I can live with that for 1 month whilst waiting for my next paycheck and it'd only cost me £50. However I've never installed an OS onto a computer without a previous OS already installed, I've done it to partition drives and as an upgrade. Am I right in assuming I just stick in the disk and follow the installation instructions, or does it require a little more geekery?



Any thoughts or recommendations? (aside from, don't use Windows 8 ) Maybe some sites to look at.

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budokaiman
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 19:26
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Quote: "Especially having a Quad Core 4.2ghz CPU, which is one hell of a step up from Dual Core 2.2ghz. Is that acceptable for the price?"

I've got an FX-6100, it's a great CPU. The stock cooler that it came with does an excellent job as well, I've got mine OC'd to 4.1 GhZ (from 3.3) and I've never had any problems with it.

Quote: "a computer without a previous OS already installed, I've done it to partition drives and as an upgrade. Am I right in assuming I just stick in the disk and follow the installation instructions, or does it require a little more geekery?"


Pretty much, just make sure you boot from the disk drive, not the HDD (depending on the bios, it might automatically detect there's nothing on the HDD and boot from disk).

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 19:32 Edited at: 25th Feb 2013 19:37
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Quote: "I've got an FX-6100, it's a great CPU. The stock cooler that it came with does an excellent job as well, I've got mine OC'd to 4.1 GhZ (from 3.3) and I've never had any problems with it."


Glad to hear it, I was stuck between the one I listed above and the FX-6300, but the difference is £10, so I guess I could be less stingy and get the upgrade. You get 6 cores instead of 4.

Quote: "
Pretty much, just make sure you boot from the disk drive, not the HDD (depending on the bios, it might automatically detect there's nothing on the HDD and boot from disk).
"


Gotcha, saves me some money if I do it that way at least.

[edit]
Without enticing an accidental flame war, what are AMD graphics cards like these days compared to NVidia? It's probably been more than 10 years since I've used an ATI/AMD, so I am a little clueless.

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budokaiman
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 19:41 Edited at: 25th Feb 2013 19:56
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Quote: "[edit]
Without enticing an accidental flame war, what are AMD graphics cards like these days compared to NVidia? It's probably been more than 10 years since I've used an ATI/AMD, so I am a little clueless."

Depends, I've found the 5000 series was pretty decent, but the 6000 series aren't quite as good as the NVidia alternatives. I've no idea bout the 7000 series though. Of course, if you go with NVidia, you can make proper use of PhysX. The card you've picked out (560 ti) is a great card though.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 19:54 Edited at: 25th Feb 2013 19:56
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Going for the AMD card I was looking at I'd be paying an extra £70, looking at it the 650ti will be sufficient when looking at the technical specifications (it's still a huge upgrade from my current GeForce 9500M GS), sure the AMD card does come with free copies of Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite, but I'd rather keep my budget low and I won't be tricked into little gimmicks like that.

Dropping the OS, upgrading to the 6300 AMD CPU, going for a 550W PSU and adding extra cooling will bring it to around £530, saving a little bit more, but at the same time getting a little bit more.

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Indicium
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 19:56
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I'm not sure exactly sure how nVidia and AMD line up, but I think you might be a little disappointed with the graphics card.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 19:58
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Quote: "I'm not sure exactly sure how nVidia and AMD line up, but I think you might be a little disappointed with the graphics card.
"


How so? I know it's a mid-range card, but is it not sufficient?

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Indicium
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 20:01
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Actually according to this website, it's a high end card.

I'm misinformed, it only ranks slightly below my own card ( HD6850 and it's ran every game I've thrown at it on max or close to after I've overclocked it slightly ). You should be very happy with it, ignore my previous comment. It seems a solid build mate, better than mine.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Phaelax
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 20:41
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I looked up the GTX650 power requirements, it suggest a minimum 400w. Your 450w sounds sufficient in theory, I dunno what the black edition CPUs require, but I'd get 500w to be on the safe side.

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 20:42
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Ah, well that's ok then, i just assumed because of the numbering it's mid range after following the logic of cards like the 9xxx, 8xxx etc. and because it was one of my cheaper options.

I'm gonna email DinoPC to ask about their delivery options and perhaps place my order tomorrow, so any useful advice/recommendations will be appreciated before I splash the cash.

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Melancholic
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Posted: 25th Feb 2013 21:22
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Arg, I've fallen behind on the current hardware available since i built my PC. However if I'm not mistaken your in the UK are you not? If so then i suggest you check out Aria PC for parts (they do a build service as well i think). Its where i got my parts, hell i'm surprised their still in business, I've received a free keyboard, 2*2 gig ddr3 ram sticks, a 500 watt PSU and a 500 gig hard drive from them for free (they run competitions on their forum where you have the chance to win)


I can count to banana...
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Norion
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Posted: 26th Feb 2013 00:53
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You might want to change from 1 x 8 Gb memory, to 2 x 4 Gb memory. This can make your new desktop just a little bit faster

Nec Temere Nec Timide
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 26th Feb 2013 11:34 Edited at: 26th Feb 2013 11:38
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This seems like a better deal:
http://www.dinopc.com/shop/pc/-b-NEW-b-Raider-AMD-X6-6300-94p1640.htm

You also get Bioshock Infinite and Tomb Rader for free with it on steam (I think).

The Graphics card and CPU (6 core) seem a lot better! Although I'm not familiar with AMD, so I could be wrong.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Feb 2013 18:06
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I'm not too bothered by the free games so much, I'm more interested in getting the best spec for a reasonable price with this month's pay.

I went for the 650ti. It will do the job for me just fine and saves me money on the cost of the PC itself. The good thing is, I can always upgrade parts in the future if I need to or fancy a bit more oompf.

The final spec?


CPU: AMD FX 6300 Black Edition
Operating System: No Operating System (got Windows 8 already)
Motherboard: Asus M5A97 R2.0
RAM: 8GB DDR3 1333mhz (2x4GB)
Hard Drive: 500GB S-ATAIII 6.0Gb/s
Optical Drive: 22x DVD±RW DL S-ATA
Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 650 Ti 1GB
Sound card: Onboard 7.1 Audio
Case: Xigmatek Asgard 382 Window
PSU: 550W Corsair VS
Warranty: 3 Year SureCare Warranty

Total cost: £520, which includes the £40 it costs to have a fast turn around, which I was willing to pay for. This means it'll be ready for me to have a gaming weekend this weekend. They told me I can have a weekend delivery, which should fit around the fact I work.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 26th Feb 2013 18:39
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I was cleaning up some old papers yesterday, and found a notebook where I wrote down a computer build from a long time ago. $200 for just a 6GB harddrive. A P233 with MMX! What a beastly machine!

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 26th Feb 2013 18:42 Edited at: 26th Feb 2013 18:49
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If you can, push for a card which has a little more VRAM in it - 1GB is starting to choke out on the higher resolution textures.

Avoid any AMD chip which isn't socket AM3+ (the CPU you have at the moment is fine), this will give you a much better upgrade path in the future.

8GB is a healthy amount of RAM if you don't feel the need to have a million tabs and programs running in the background (never understood this). Hardly any games are 64 bit to take advantage of 4GB RAM, so that leaves you with at least another 4GB free for the OS and background apps.

I'd also set aside £15 for adding fans, the airflow in the default configuration is woefully low - consider adding a 120mm intake fan at the very least (Noctua and Fractal make brilliant low-noise fans).

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 26th Feb 2013 19:55
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Quote: "If you can, push for a card which has a little more VRAM in it - 1GB is starting to choke out on the higher resolution textures."


I was almost tempted to go for the next model up, but decided against it, I think 1gb will be sufficient for what I need and would be willing to wait until I need to upgrade to get a higher spec model.

Quote: "
I'd also set aside £15 for adding fans, the airflow in the default configuration is woefully low - consider adding a 120mm intake fan at the very least (Noctua and Fractal make brilliant low-noise fans)."


I've got a couple of my own fans (coolermaster) already if there's any problems keeping cool.

Quote: "Hardly any games are 64 bit to take advantage of 4GB RAM, so that leaves you with at least another 4GB free for the OS and background apps."


Main reason I went 8gb instead of 4, I am a multitasker, even when I game.

Quote: "I was cleaning up some old papers yesterday, and found a notebook where I wrote down a computer build from a long time ago. $200 for just a 6GB harddrive. A P233 with MMX! What a beastly machine!"


Hehe, I remember when I got an upgrade to a P233 with MMX, I was really psyched, previously I had a 133 with 1gb. Jeez, I loved my old 1mb 3DFX card as well, the graphics quality was amazing for that little card. It's insane watching how much PCs progress, I mean I remember thinking my Acer laptop was state of the art, but with i5 processors and the graphics cards available now, even on laptops just dwarfs it.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 27th Feb 2013 02:14
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Quote: "Main reason I went 8gb instead of 4, I am a multitasker, even when I game"

My system would choke with a tiny 8gb of ram! I have 16gb and I've actually run out before!

Quote: "but with i5 processors and the graphics cards available now, even on laptops just dwarfs it."

Cell phones dwarf our old computers!

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 27th Feb 2013 21:28
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I've hit the peak of my 2GB while I was playing a game with a VM in the background and a browser window open. I have now upgraded to a monumental 3GB!

You get 500MB extra space on Dropbox... I get 500MB extra space on Dropbox

Everyone's happy!
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Phaelax
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 06:07
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I think I use over 2GB on a fresh boot with Win7

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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DevilLiger
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 09:49
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For me this is more future proof:

FX-8350
Asus Sabortooth R2.0
32GB DDR3 1866 Dual Channel
GTX Titan (Going to order this soon)
1TB WD Black Edition
Windows 8 Pro
Asus Blu-Ray Drive
1200W PSU (Im going to get myself one too from Thermaltake)
Full Size Case like mines: (note: 6 fans is never enough. 7th fan possible)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129100

they key is to buy them during specials. mine only cost $800USD other than the video card and windows 8.
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BiggAdd
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 09:56
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Quote: "they key is to buy them during specials. mine only cost $800USD other than the video card and windows 8."


And live in a country where computer hardware is considerably cheaper.

Also, How is $800USD a good representation of your future proof system, when your graphics card alone will be $1300?

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DevilLiger
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 10:26 Edited at: 28th Feb 2013 10:41
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except for the video card, but something along that line. you can downgrade it to a FX-8120. maybe downgrade the video card to maybe a GTX 660 along with a 500GB blue drive WD. also you can downgrade it to a cheaper motherboard. It's more future proof because on the long way it won't be too slow for at least 10 years maybe. Reason to go a little higher because it's like using a Pentium 4 these days which I still do once in a long while. A pentium 4 isn't very useful in most situation these day. I can be wrong. These days with a decent core 2 quad with decent setup can still get you around well. It maybe not be able to compete in high end games, but it'll get you around well. If he has to go that price he might want to think about an Intel I3? pretty strong for a dual core but still in the same price range. imo

for comparison. I'm still not sure what you do regularly on your computer. So anyways here is a link:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/fx-4100-core-i3-2100-gaming-benchmark,3136.html
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The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 13:39 Edited at: 28th Feb 2013 13:41
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Such large PSUs are utterly pointless unless you plan on a multi-GPU powerhouse rig. Even the top-end cards are only drawing 100-200W - the 550W PSU you have seems like a nice wattage.

And as the guy above said, we'd be able to make better recommendations if we knew what you intend on doing with your rig.

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Indicium
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 18:29
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Current memory usage Win8: 2.0GB.

What I have open:
- Netbeans
- Skype
- 3 Chrome windows
- Several Explorer windows
- Spotify

And I never really do more than that.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 18:45
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The way I see future proof is simply how far I can upgrade it. At the moment there's plenty of room for future upgrades. I don't have a problem with upgrading parts as I know how and I know how the compatibility works too. As far as I can see the MB is pretty future proof, which I think is the important thing. I'm more interested in getting a good system for a fair price that will play everything I want and where I can upgrade parts when I'm not satisfied with performance.

As far as I can see, the choice I went for suits that purpose, and you guys have managed to convince me on making some better choices.

Quote: "they key is to buy them during specials. mine only cost $800USD other than the video card and windows 8. "


Funny you should say that, there were some special offers on the build I ended up going for. I ended up with some good deals as well. Essentially I started with the £599 preset, which was down from £669 and made my own changes to bring the price down further (change of OS and graphics card mostly).

However, I am jealous that Americans get cheaper hardware than we do.

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Phaelax
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 22:43
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Quote: "Current memory usage Win8: 2.0GB.

What I have open:
- Netbeans
- Skype
- 3 Chrome windows
- Several Explorer windows
- Spotify
"


Netbeans is probably using it all!

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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Indicium
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 23:01
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Aw don't be mean, it's a lovely IDE. Using 240MB, not too bad. I think Win8 is a little more memory efficient than Win7, but I could be wrong.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 23:09
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Right now im using 4.07gb of RAM

9 chrome tabs
2 visual studio
1 explorer window
skype
AGK keystate checking app
the task manager.

One of the chrometabs using 230mb of memory. Probably the one with an hour long youtube video.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 28th Feb 2013 23:30 Edited at: 28th Feb 2013 23:31
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Using 1.2gb with 4 IE tabs and MSN and running Windows 8 OS at 1920x1080, I think it tends to use more RAM when it's available to improve its performance. I have 3gb RAM on a laptop and I'm able to multitask much better than this and still use RAM fairly efficiently. I could be running Unity3D, Visual Studio, Carrara, Silo3D, IE with this many tabs and WinAmp playing music. Of course, the performance isn't as smooth, but it's plenty to allow me to multitask effectively.

I am able to multitask as efficiently on my Lenovo as well, with 2gb, though it isn't as good with programs that relied more on the graphics card, but to be fair, it is running an Intel GMA, so it's understandable.

I will be interested to see how my new PC will handle multitasking. It has 3 times the number of cores and has a much faster processing speed and has a lot more RAM to spare. I am also liking the fact the motherboard in it is designed so that Windows 8 is even faster to boot (little over 6 seconds according to the demonstration), it will be nice to see how true to its claims it is.

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BiggAdd
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Posted: 1st Mar 2013 03:43
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Quote: "except for the video card, but something along that line. you can downgrade it to a FX-8120. maybe downgrade the video card to maybe a GTX 660 along with a 500GB blue drive WD. also you can downgrade it to a cheaper motherboard. It's more future proof because on the long way it won't be too slow for at least 10 years maybe. Reason to go a little higher because it's like using a Pentium 4 these days which I still do once in a long while. A pentium 4 isn't very useful in most situation these day. I can be wrong. These days with a decent core 2 quad with decent setup can still get you around well. It maybe not be able to compete in high end games, but it'll get you around well. If he has to go that price he might want to think about an Intel I3? pretty strong for a dual core but still in the same price range. imo"


Oh right! Sorry for a minute there I thought you were suggesting he should build your system with the GTX Titan in order to future proof it!
I thought it was a bit of an excessive jump from £500 to ~£2000!

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DevilLiger
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Posted: 1st Mar 2013 08:34
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That's okay. Even though I'm getting the Titan, but he can always go with the 660 or none. I'm still not sure what is he using it for. btw windows 8 boots up so fast that I love it. Only bad part now is the hassle of shut down without having to go through sign out, wait, then finally shut down. It takes me so long to shut down than it is to boot it up. lol. Boot is shorter than 30 seconds and that includes all the way to the desktop. My brother has SSD and it is less than 5/10 seconds.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 5th Mar 2013 22:47 Edited at: 5th Mar 2013 23:49
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It arrived today! Unfortunately I finished work at 8pm, so have only managed to get it set up, install Windows 8 and test out a game on there. I tried Crysis, though I know it's not really the big benchmark anymore, however, it ran very smoothly at the highest settings, so this means I am happy with this investment.

Next I'm going to try the FFXIV Benchmark, which I think is a better tool for benchmarking.

The final specs:
Windows 8 Pro 64bit
8gb DDR3 RAM
AMD FX 6300 Black Edition
NVidia GeForce GTX 650 ti 1gb
500gb HDD

So thanks for your pointers, I am happy with the results so far and think I ended up making the right choices. I think I will be glad I didn't go for the cheaper option as far as the CPU goes.

[edit]
FFXIV Benchmark score:
Settings: High
8670 - Extremely High Performance
Settings: Maximum
6929 - Very High Performance

I am very pleased with this result. Not tried it in the highest resolution though, but it was still pretty high. Might test on another resolution tomorrow, however, I need sleep as I've got work in the morning.

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DevilLiger
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Posted: 6th Mar 2013 11:37
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As long as you're happy than that's what matters. Congrats sir.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 6th Mar 2013 19:36 Edited at: 6th Mar 2013 19:37
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Cheers. Also, the test for Maximum settings on 1920x1080 is...4201, which is rated as high. The frame rate was still very smooth.

Given my gaming laptop scored 750 on the old FFXIV benchmark at minimum settings(minimum required to play is 1500), I am actually kind of overwhelmed at the moment.

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Husbarn
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Posted: 6th Mar 2013 21:31
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I recommend to buy 1TB HDD, because 500GB might seems to be enough, but trust me, soon it won't be. I have 1TB HDD and less than 500GB of free space already.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 7th Mar 2013 12:23 Edited at: 7th Mar 2013 12:24
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Too late. However, if I need more space, I can upgrade, I managed fine with a 250gb HDD with a 250gb external prior to this. I'm prolly gonna grab a USB 3.0 external drive as well, possibly 500gb or 1tb. Most of my music, videos and projects tend to be stored on an external drive anyway, just for the sake of portability.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 05:58
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Most laptops these days are coming with e-sata ports. You're best off to use that rather than USB 3.0

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 08:12 Edited at: 8th Mar 2013 08:14
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I was contemplating it when I was speccing it up because my ThinkPad has one, but it's hard to say which of the two will win the battle in the long run. Apparently e-sata is faster, but USB 3.0 kind of has its backwards compatibility.

I went with USB 3.0 because they're additional USB ports and generally are more used. However there are HDDs that are USB 3.0 and e-Sata compatible, like this 2tb one. Granted, there aren't many of them out there and brands like Western Digital are slightly cheaper (but with only the option for USB 3.0 and Firewire). So I've got options if I need a speedy HDD to transfer data between my ThinkPad and PC. However, most of my backup data is already on my 500gb USB 2.0 drive.

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Indicium
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 18:49
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Surely USB 3.0 is faster than the HDD can read/write anyway?


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
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Phaelax
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 19:32
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It is faster, theoretically even more than the fastest SSDs right now. You'll never hit 5Gb/s though.


Quote: " You're best off to use that rather than USB 3.0"


I would argue that USB 3.0 is a better choice. It's more common and versatile with its backwards compatibility. And speed-wise it's comparable to sata. The plus side to esata is the controller isn't going to be shared with multiple devices and could technically provide better performance, but I'd say very slightly if at all noticeable.

If you happen to have an esata port on your computer, great, but don't ignore it if it doesn't have one.

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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