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Geek Culture / The future of WIMP interfaces

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 7th Mar 2013 07:41
The term is very widely unused today, but WIMP stands for Windows, Icons, Menus, and Pointer, referring to a typical Windows style GUI. These are absolutely ingenious interfaces as their nature of simulating a normal, real life workspace makes them incredibly intuitive yet useful. However, devices like tablets and smart phones which are becoming far more popular than Windows computers use GUIs that only implement the icons and menu functions of a WIMP interface; they don't support windows or pointers. I will say a touch interface is more intuitive than a pointer, but the lack of windows on a type of GUI the tech world is trending towards is a pretty grim prospect in my opinion. It seems, however, that some mobile developers have been trying to bring windows back to tablets, so this makes it hard to tell whether WIMP interfaces are on their way out, or if they simply aren't practical or implemented on mobile devices quite yet.

Another thing I wonder about is how long desktop PCs and laptops will stay around. I assume that desktop PCs will be a rare thing to own for normal home tasks in say, 5 years, and I assume most laptops will be the tablet/laptop combination by about that time from now.

What are other peoples' thoughts on these various questions?
easter bunny
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Posted: 7th Mar 2013 09:33
WIMP interfaces are necessary for programmers and advanced users, I don't think it will ever go away completely.
My opinion is that fullscreen (such as win8's Metro) will become the norm for users who can't 'use' a computer. But anyone who use's their computer for a specific task (art, 3d modeling, programming etc) will still use 'Windows mode'
Some program's I regularly use are probably never going to be available for metro (list)

I don't that programming on a touch screen would work very well, because you are so close the the screen, and it's slower to type, even if it's only 50% slower, that means many of coding hours more. Though the speed would be quite a bit faster in reality because it would (should) use inteli-sense (like Visual Studio)

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Van B
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Posted: 7th Mar 2013 16:05
What I don't understand, is what Microsoft expects to happen with Windows 8. Firstly, why is it still called Windows - surely that suggests the traditional GUI with multiple windows.

I'm thinking about upgrading, and having most of my old PC as a media centre PC - now what to put on it... it's a toss up between Windows8 and Linux!

That's the way it's going, and will continue to go so long as a company like Valve is pushing it. What is the point in a general user paying more for a Windows tablet, if the experience is just the same as with an android tablet!

I think that Windows 8 should have been called something else - like leave Windows the way it is, traditional mouse based interface... and have Windows8 as a seperate OS for tablets etc. Microsoft are making far too many assumptions about the way I use my devices... I use the iPad for killing time, I use the PC for work - the 2 are not very compatible, in fact they are as compatible as they ever will need to be. I don't want to slide the screen when using a PC, I don't want to touch the screen at all - So I'll stick with Windows7 and live in the hope that Microsoft get a fricken grip.

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ionstream
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Posted: 7th Mar 2013 18:39
I think its possible that programming can still be done without a windows/icons interface, but Windows 8 is not it. Programmers still need to know what the machine is doing and Windows 8 is distancing itself from that in the hopes that it will be easier for the average user to consume media, which it is successful with (Bing news is the prettiest and most straightforward news app I've seen). I hope that there is a better bridge between productivity and media consumption in the future, and maybe with some more innovation Windows 8 can be that.

To be fair I never tried Windows 8 on a machine that is well suited for it, I just played around with it on a virtual machine. It felt like it was absolutely wonderful to watch videos and check the news and social outlets with, but when I had to do "real" stuff then the traditional desktop was the only way to do it and it was worse than windows 7.

I have hope though, I don't think the only way to have a productive OS is with windows and pointers and I like when companies take a leap with something drastically different instead of playing it safe. It might not work now but it might lead to great strides in the future.

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 03:38
It would seem very likely to me that with Valve pushing Linux so hard as stated, by the time MS has a chance to release another OS to redeem themselves if they choose to do so, it might be too late; so many people will have likely made the switch to Linux by then. As soon as development tools I like to use move to Linux, I sure as hell am going too!
Quik
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 18:08
most people that use computers use windows, youre expecting that many people to just switch to linux? I guarantee you, i can count on one hand the people that know of linux on my facebook for example.



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Indicium
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 18:46
If you buy a linux game, do you get its Windows counterpart?


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 21:08
I think you do
Van B
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 21:10
That's how it works with the mac at least, not that there's a huge amount of mac games on steam.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 22:03
I have recently installed Windows 8 on my netbook, and I have to say that it's done a power of good.

In addition to the SSD I put in it, upgrading now lets it boot in under ten seconds from a cold start, and shut down in literally zero. Everything loads up instantly, and runs smoother than anything I've had the chance to play with before.

However, I don't use this for anything other than my average-Jane browsing, Skyping and writing needs, so that's a fair thing to level against it. Windows 8 was definitely a noticeable upgrade to this system, though.

Planning on testing it with a couple of 2D games on my Steam, such as Limbo and Terraria. If it runs those well, then I'll be happy as a pig in muck.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 23:06
Quote: "youre expecting that many people to just switch to linux?"
When they realize it's free and does just as good as Windows, I'd say it's likely! Only thing holding them back would be software compatibility, so it might actually be manufacturers who really decide when the switch to Linux will occur.
Quik
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 23:24
Quote: "When they realize it's free and does just as good as Windows"


windows is basicly free - you buy a computer and you have windows there ,do you honestly think the "non-nerd population" activly goes out to buy copies of windows - not to mention install it?



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 23:32
A few more things to take into consideration are cost for the companies. Say MS charges HP so and so amount of money to put a copy of Windows on one of their machines, if HP puts a copy of Linux on their machines, they do so for free, increasing their profits, and allowing them to do so even while lowering the cost they charge for the computer. So yes, Linux is free, Windows isn't, and people want to save money.
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 23:36
Problem is getting stuff to work with Linux.

Cannot understand the logic in that people are saying everyone wants a simple, easy to understand operating system...so they should get Linux?

Not saying Linux is like ye olde DOS, but we're dealing with the lowest common denominator here, people.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 8th Mar 2013 23:41
This is true! And honestly, I'm sure that's one of the only reasons holding society in general from switching to Linux; it's too complex to use. And as quick stated, there's literally almost no non-techy person who would be willing to switch.
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 00:17
The only people I know who tout Linux are programmers and other similarly computer-literate people. While I can understand that it's excellent for those who can tear out parts and make it exactly as they want, most don't.

I mean, no average person has the basic skills to even open up most of the items in their house, (which I find sad.) If people would roll up their sleeves to fix a leaking washing machine, then they're not gunna edit their registries and other stuff.

Heck, is there anything that isn't delegated to some form of tech support nowadays? I know most of the biologists I work with are useless with technology, and they're Uni educated.
The Zoq2
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 00:43
Quote: "windows is basicly free - you buy a computer and you have windows there"


Microsoft have to get the money from somewhere, so if you buy a 5000 sek laptop, you probably pay atleast 500 sek for windows. Not to mention office, there are great alternative to MS office but people still pay 1000sek for it, just because it is what everyone else uses
Quik
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 01:28
Quote: "Microsoft have to get the money from somewhere, so if you buy a 5000 sek laptop, you probably pay atleast 500 sek for windows. Not to mention office, there are great alternative to MS office but people still pay 1000sek for it, just because it is what everyone else uses"


that was not my point, my point was that it comes with the computer, thus there's no need to buy it separatly - and it comes installed, why switch to linux - if you are a casual user, if you already have a fully functional windows copy preinstalled on the computer you just bought? why go through the hassle <and it is a hassle> to install linux? or ubuntu? or whichever. For a casual user there's literarily nothing that linux has to offer - for those however who are willing to take the time and learn, it has plenty.



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 01:33 Edited at: 9th Mar 2013 01:35
Remember my point that the corporations are most likely ultimately going to decide when the switch occurs, and for them, switching to Linux is a mother load of saved money. I don't think the corporations even care how easy it is for the customer per se, as long as it's easy enough to get them to buy it and give the corporation money. By putting Linux on the computers, bam, it's already there and no user ever has to deal with installing it.

And about those OSs having nothing to offer, they sure do! Number one, companies would love to lower the prices a bit to make the product even more attractive, and with Linux being free, they'd still make a greater profit, so that's one advantage for the user. Among many other things, the user is no longer contained within the confines of a highly corporate controlled piece of software.
Quik
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 03:18
Quote: "Remember my point that the corporations are most likely ultimately going to decide when the switch occurs, and for them, switching to Linux is a mother load of saved money. I don't think the corporations even care how easy it is for the customer per se, as long as it's easy enough to get them to buy it and give the corporation money."


thats exactly the problem, if you have 2 computers - one says "comes with windows" and one says "comes with linux"

even if this casual user knows what linux is, do you think he or she is likely to buy it?
hardly
Quote: "the user is no longer contained within the confines of a highly corporate controlled piece of software."



Explain this one to me, cuz i dont see how it's a issue



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 03:36
Quote: "even if this casual user knows what linux is, do you think he or she is likely to buy it?"
Really? I hope by 'buy' you meant install... Which once again, the user would not be installing Linux, it would come preinstalled. And how many people who aren't rather technically advanced have 2 computers, both of which they use and expect to work together?? Not many! If they do expect those things, I'm sure they have some decent technical capabilities.

How is being corporate controlled an issue? Like we see with Windows 8, a direction has been taken with the interface that is somewhat unpopular. Sure, you do still have the option to use other operating systems. I don't blame MS at all either for that, a company's gotta make money. I'll take it back and say the corporate thing isn't much of an issue, but I think my point still remains.
Quik
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 04:07
You're not even reading in context - obv i meant buy a computer with linux preinstalled.



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 04:19 Edited at: 9th Mar 2013 04:22
You're not even being clear enough - obv i meant when people happen to buy a new computer in general, it will have Linux preinstalled on it as opposed to Windows.
Quik
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 11:54
but why would it have?
If every store would just suddenly switch to linux, most people would probably go "WTF is thiz!?" and return the computer

I'm sorry but a windows to linux switch is highly unlikely to happen anytime soon



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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 12:12
So, I'm using Windows 8, and still wondering what the fuss is.

It does have a Desktop button on the front page as soon as you log in. A big one, with flowers on it. You can't miss it, and when you click it, boom. Pretty much the same as 7, only the start bar is in the top-right corner, and has been rearranged.

Regardless, I can still browse files through windows in exactly the manner I did in 7, only everything's a lot more responsive.

Of the many people I know using Windows atm, none would bother trying to learn Linux, but many would find W8 a welcome upgrade. I think the Metro interface got blown out of all proportion on release, and I genuinely cannot work out why everyone hates W8 so passionately.
bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Mar 2013 18:15 Edited at: 9th Mar 2013 18:19
I've found most people dead set against Linux are the technical types who've had bad experiences. Most people I talk to when I repair a computer and offer to install Linux are onboard up until I tell them their kids can't play most windows games off the shelf. Nobody's ever turned me down for things like Netflix compatibility or anything else. The only reason again and again are that the kids can't play their el-cheapo or whatever games.

The one person I did a dual-boot for and a person I did a full install for absolutely love it. I tell them how to go get future upgrades all on their own and every once in a while I help them support something funky that they can't get working right from the software center.

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
the_winch
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 03:17
The low end pretty much has ditched windows already. That's why everybody stopped making netbooks. It's not possible to make money competing against android tablets when you have to pay windows licensing fees.

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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 03:27
Ah, great point!
Libervurto
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 04:08 Edited at: 10th Mar 2013 04:10
Quote: "The only people I know who tout Linux are programmers and other similarly computer-literate people. While I can understand that it's excellent for those who can tear out parts and make it exactly as they want, most don't."

You don't have to do this with Linux -- you can, which is cool, but you don't have to -- there are many Linux distributions with competent WIMP interfaces.

Slightly off topic: I'd like to see a map of the world displaying the popularity of different operating systems in different countries. Whenever I go to Linux forums there's a huge amount of Indians, Eastern Europeans and South Americans, which makes me think Linux is a lot more popular outside of America and Western Europe.

If we break down the terms included in "WIMP" we can see what the essentials are:
* Windows: A way of displaying and distinguishing between work areas for simultaneously running programs.
* Icons: A way for the user to call specific programs, files and directories.
* Menus: A way to alter the behaviour of a program or manipulate a file or directory.
* Pointer (which is a poor choice of word when applied to computing, but acronyms...): A way to control user input.

So none of the actual terms are concrete, but I think we will always need terms that fit those descriptions; but not necessarily split into these four areas, we might merge some or split some in half. I can't see mouse pointers disappearing any time soon: the mouse is a work of genius -- I think it's a travesty to have a clunky old slim-typewriter sat next to it -- but certainly it is input devices that have the biggest impact on how our requirements for human-computer interaction are resolved. Touch-screens might be a great method of input but there are still situations where a mouse and keyboard are preferable.

Now how do we replace the keyboard?


Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 04:17
I'd agree with the mouse staying around for a while being likely, and I hope it is. If I'm using a laptop or desktop, I would much rather use a mouse and rest my arms rather than have the raised constantly to use the computer. Tablets are ok in that regard as they are held in whatever place the user finds most comfortable, but tablets are small and performance limited. Honestly, I think Windows 8 is a wonderful OS to put on tablets, especially the Tablet Pro as that runs a genuine dasktop Windows; I find that to be a pretty epic thing. However, for desktop computers and laptops, Windows 8 simply is not the way to go.
Libervurto
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 04:27
I hadn't really given Windows 8 much thought, as I didn't intend to buy it anyway, but this has gotten me thinking and it really seems like Microsoft are selling the farm to buy lunch. Why on earth would they move away from the needs of desktop users and try to accommodate tablet users when they hold a majority on desktops and are a minority on tablets? Why didn't they make a separate OS for tablets and not have tablet features encroach on desktop users?


Quik
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 16:59
Quote: "I've found most people dead set against Linux are the technical types who've had bad experiences. "


I'm not against linux - its most likely great once you get into it, i'm just asking WHY would the general populace change FROM Windows to Linux, if windows fits them perfectly fine?



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bitJericho
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 17:14
Quote: "I'm not against linux - its most likely great once you get into it, i'm just asking WHY would the general populace change FROM Windows to Linux, if windows fits them perfectly fine?"


For the general population, you have a simpler OS. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense but for the beginner, the Linux desktop and associated programs are easier to update, manage and install. You've got all the software one could want available for free and installable with a single click.

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Quik
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 17:17
Quote: "the Linux desktop and associated programs are easier to update, manage and install."


question, is Linux or Ubuntu easier?



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bitJericho
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 17:20 Edited at: 10th Mar 2013 17:21
Ubuntu is Linux. I wouldn't recommend anything but Ubuntu or one of its variants for pretty much any purpose TBH. I'd go with Lubuntu if you want something leaner, and stock Ubuntu if you have a decent setup.

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Quik
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 18:45
I know ubuntu is linux..

I used Ubuntu in school - but I did find it horribly confusing and unintuitive, I honestly would not change to ubuntu, and I cannot see how, once again, any casual computer user would



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Indicium
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Posted: 10th Mar 2013 23:39
Quote: "I know ubuntu is linux.."


I don't think you understand.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 00:59
Why would you ask which one is easier to use if you knew they were the same thing?

Also, you're the first person I have heard say that Ubuntu is difficult to use and unintuitive. It may be different than Windows and maybe you aren't used to it, but that doesn't make it difficult and unintuitive.
Quik
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 01:07
Quote: "Why would you ask which one is easier to use if you knew they were the same thing?"


I thought there were some differences, but i probably dont understand the deal with them

But no, i've never gotten into linux or ubuntu, i can certanly see the appeal for more complex users, but i just want to play games, chat, listen to music <spotify> and surf the net, and for that - windows fits me pretty well and I honestly dont see any reason to change



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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 01:10
Ah! Well, I can't disagree with that.

If you knew that some version of Linux existed with a really nice interface, was easy to install, and was compatible with all of those programs, would you switch?
Quik
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 01:22
No, because i'm already using windows.
but, if I were to get a new computer, i would perhaps give it a try, or maybe i could install it as a secondary program to try it on, but switch just because? no



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easter bunny
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 01:42
I don't really understand why users DON'T change to Ubuntu (or some other distro), for me, it's simple, I use very specific software, much of which doesn't work on Linux, but the average user only really uses simple programs (or apps as they're calling them now), such as Firefox, Thunderbird, [IM chat program], VLC, open office and an image viewer. The real problem is that it's hard to create software for Linux, you're pretty much limited to GCC, which is hard to use, to say the least.
Quote: "i can certanly see the appeal for more complex users, but i just want to play games, chat, listen to music <spotify> and surf the net, and for that - windows fits me pretty well and I honestly dont see any reason to change"
, Linux fits the bill fairly well for that, sure Windows does it fine, and if you already have it, then it's not worth it to change, but if that's all you need to do and you can shave $50 off the price tag by using Linux instead..........

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 01:46 Edited at: 11th Mar 2013 01:48
hmmm, I actually don't find WIMP to be that intuitive solution, but that's probably more because the failings of the common design principals programs seems to fall into.

In terms of programming, all you need is text entry.

bitJericho
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 02:49
You're limited to gcc on Linux in the same way you're limited to visual studio on windows. Which is to say, you're not. I've used, for example, purebasic on Linux and it worked fine. You got most popular languages available. Python, ruby, c c++, many varieties of basic, and so on, most available right from the ubuntu repo.

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
easter bunny
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 05:42
While all you do need is a text editor, you also need a fast way to switch between your program and your editor, also, when programming games, you normally have an image editor open as well (like The GIMP), and often a web browser. Windows (not the OS, the literal windows) are a good solution for that, though there might be better ways of doing it.
I suppose a lot of the problem programming on Linux is the lack of good IDEs, I find it difficult to program without my syntax highlighing and auto-indention (not to mention inteli-sense), and then to use the terminal to compile it, pressing f5 is much easier. (aren't I spoiled)

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bitJericho
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 06:04
What's wrong with codeblocks?

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Libervurto
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Posted: 11th Mar 2013 10:04 Edited at: 11th Mar 2013 10:22
Quote: "I suppose a lot of the problem programming on Linux is the lack of good IDEs, I find it difficult to program without my syntax highlighing and auto-indention (not to mention inteli-sense), and then to use the terminal to compile it, pressing f5 is much easier. (aren't I spoiled)"

Huh, there are tonnes of good IDE's. Even the default text editor (gedit) has syntax highlighting for many languages.

I find it much easier to manipulate files in Ubuntu, and having multiple workspaces is handy. I'm not a big fan of the "unity dash", I'd much rather have the old menus; I know you can still basically use it the same way to specify the type of program you're looking for but it take a few extra clicks than a simple menu. Maybe I'm missing some functionality that makes it quicker to find things.

Windows is really restrictive: even simple things like moving the taskbar totally cock-up the position of everything on screen and it never compensates for it. Maybe there are programs that fix this, but there again it is more difficult to find that sort of thing on Windows since there is no software centre like on Ubuntu. Does Windows 8 now have a software centre? I heard something like that. Does it work like Ubuntu or is it just a shop?


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