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Geek Culture / For someone looking for a career in game development, does GameInstitute.com look like a worthy investment?

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 00:05
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Gosh, that's probably the longest post title I've ever written...

Anyways, recently, due to many troubles with stupid financial aid and other complications, taking the IT course at my local college this year will not be possible; this marks two years in a row where I've tried to go, and haven't because the government won't approve me for financial aid due to a couple of factors. Having this hurtle come at me, I decided I would look online for courses in programming, and my search led me to the following site.

Reviews of it, as like many other reviews, are mixed at best, though the people actually taking the courses say they're worth it. Someone managed to get a job at EA thanks to it, another at Sony, and others' have just been happy because it's jump-started their indie development. Upon completion of the course, you can obtain a certificate, and if you want to continue your education with it, there's a partner college that will (apparently) help you obtain a degree... I think. I'm not sure, the site's not exactly clear.

They've been around for years, and I've actually heard of them before, but before I go ahead and sink the money into it, I'd like to see if you guys think it's worth it? It's definitely affordable for me, a 21 year old living with his parents, trying to jump start his life and find a way to obtain a career, but are there better options?

Even if I don't obtain a degree from it, I can still use the knowledge learned for my personal game development. But for $99, it almost seems too good to be true, though they do seem fairly credible. Maybe miracles do happen?

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 00:10
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Think from the point of view of the employer. Would you hire someone who did a $99 online training course, or someone who went whole hog. Even despite the circumstances, I've heard from uni grads I work with that where you study is as important as what you studied, and online courses at least in their fields are laughed at.
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 00:17
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The initial $99 just acts as a yearly subscription, basically; if you want to take more in-depth classes and go one-on-one with the professors, it costs more, though I'm not certain of the amount, I'm sure it's a few hundred though.

I've heard both stories from graduates; some have told me that the only thing that matters is you have a decent portfolio/resume to show at a job interview, others have said it matters where you studied... yada yada yada. I s'pose it just depends on where you're looking to get hired and how determined you are!

It's funny, this place has more positive reviews than the DeVry University's game design/programming course. That sort of says something about DeVry's quality, eh?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 00:54 Edited at: 16th Mar 2013 01:00
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I don't think online courses are necessarily a bad thing or even a bad sign to employers, but I think your best bet is to actually speak to the employers, hear it from the horse's mouth. There's no harm in asking and it shows you're also taking an active interest in the industry. Also look at their job advertisements, see what they want in a person and try to cater your education to it.

With regard to online courses, I am going to take one in journalism, but the diploma you receive is pretty much a requirement, so I kinda need it to get the job I want.

But also with online courses, there are pitfalls, not all courses are beneficial and you're not necessarily going to be taken seriously, like if you went to a diploma mill to get your degree (we don't have them in the UK, but I understand you've got them in the US).

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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 01:38
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I've never heard of a diploma mill, sounds like a bad thing though.

I don't know, I've looked at a LOT of reviews of this place, and the people who post negative reviews seem to be upset because they think it "overcharges" them for the lessons, but really, it's an online course with a certificate program and further education units and optional degrees, it's going to cost money. You can't get a certificate/degress through 3D Buzz, that I'm aware of, and most of their useful videos aren't free, plus they ramble a LOT...

Anyway, it's also accredited, and their courses are used in 2,000+ schools in the nation... so it seems like a cool little site I found. I might do it anyway, just to jumpstart the learning process!

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greenlig
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 06:29
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What do you need the degree for?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 09:02
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Quote: "I've never heard of a diploma mill, sounds like a bad thing though."


Essentially a diploma mill offers bogus qualifications. It's essentially buying the qualification, but it means absolutely nothing, it just offers the appearance of authenticity.

Quote: "Anyway, it's also accredited, and their courses are used in 2,000+ schools in the nation... "


According to whom? If it says accredited on their website, you might want to verify this through another source...possibly one of those 2000+ schools.

Of course, it could be a reputable distance learning package, which is not such a strange thing these days, but with the internet there's naturally pitfalls and it's best to avoid diploma mills.

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Sph!nx
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 12:25
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I think it depends on several factors. What does the employer seek and what do you show for it. Diplomas are 'proof' of knowledge but so is a good portfolio. I don't think one can really go without the other unless one is just that good. One can compensate for the other but that's all up to the employer.

Regards Sph!nx
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 16:40
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Quote: "If it says accredited on their website, you might want to verify this through another source...possibly one of those 2000+ schools."


Yeah, as far as I can tell, they're accredited. I haven't found anything on the web that states otherwise, but I'm still going to do research. Plus, they've been around since at least the early 2000s, I doubt they could claim being accredited for that long without any trouble. Really, the only negative things I can find about it are that people say it's overpriced, or that they didn't like the classes, and all the positive ones I find make it sound very, very worth it.

I did some more in-depth searching, and discovered that it costs around $135 for the initial sign-up, and that includes the starting textbooks, software packages and example projects they ship to you. Then, if you want classes every week, it's an additional $7 a week. That's $364 PER YEAR. Most people spend that amount in a day, even at a community college! Of course, these figures are according to one student from October of last year, so they may be different. I'm going to email them and find out just how much I may spend on this.

One of their professors has been in the industry for years, I forget his name, but he's written a ton of highly praised books on the subject of game development, so hopefully that bodes well for the school.

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Wolf
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 18:00 Edited at: 16th Mar 2013 18:01
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You better google for reviews on that websites performance and read throught them on various sources. Many bad services fake propaganda reviews, keep that in mind.

The videogame industry does not need any kind of degree. Your work should speak for yourself. If you'd want epic games to hire you, you are much better of familiarising yourself with the engine and everything around it.

I noticed that you ignored some posts stating that you would not need the degree or asking what you would want the degree for so I realise you are probably going to ignore this post too. However, I try to give you some solid advice here:

Learn everything about gamecreation outside of your professional environment instead of taking this course. The videogame industry is not yet institutionalized (if thats proper english) yet so people are looking for talent rather than diplomas and I'd hate to see yet another guy sitting on his diploma not finding work. I keep up with the industry and I know how major studios hire. At least in the creative/artistic field people get hired by portfolios...not diplomas.

Learn something solid you are sure to find a job in as a solid basis and teach yourself how to make games. Its all there on the internet. Learn the basics of everything needed and then specialize yourself in a specific directory (gameprogramming, engine coding,modeling, writing, 3d design).

If your plan on getting into the industry fails or if you "grow out" of videogames in a couple years you still have your other diploma to base a new career in.

Don't waste your money...whatever this institution could teach you is available on the internet and its probably much more up to date.



-Wolf

http://www.serygalacaffeine.com
Without struggle,no progress and no result.Every breaking of habit produces a change in the machine.
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 18:40
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Quote: "I noticed that you ignored some posts stating that you would not need the degree or asking what you would want the degree for..."


Oops, I didn't meant to, I just didn't see a couple of them.

I'm not sure what I would need the degree for, I just figured that if colleges offered degrees in game design, certain studios might require it, though I'm glad to see most people say it really just depends on a good portfolio and how hard you apply yourself.

Quote: "You better google for reviews on that websites performance and read throught them on various sources. Many bad services fake propaganda reviews, keep that in mind."


Oh yeah, I know, and I've been Googling reviews non-stop for the last week. Many of them are from around '04-'06 for some reason, during which there apparently was a gap in new content from the site for a period of time. However, game development tools were changing then, and it may have been difficult to keep up with the changes, but now it seems they stay fairly updated (at least in course work), plus it was 7 years ago, so it's not really applicable to the site anymore.

Really, the only negative things I can find said about it are that it's overpriced (but this was said in the reviews from years ago), and that people wouldn't bother putting it on a résumé. Other than that, people seem to really like it. The amount of materials you get for a membership alone is pretty attractive.

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 19:46
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What aspect of game design in particular are you looking at?

If it's level design, I'd argue that you'd get much further putting a year of your time to learning Unity or UDK in depth, (please don't start the ol' "what about FPSC" argument here, by the way. These engines have the complexity as well as the functionality that employers would probably find to be a bare minimum.)

Other things like writing, texture/concept art and modelling can all be learned for free with a good program and a tonne of free time.

I only really know of the recruiting habits of Valve, who are a little bit different to everyone else. Still, they look for people with general skills in a wide range of things, and specialisation in one.

This makes sense, because it shows an adaptive ability that could save your behind. If the axe starts swinging once you get into a studio, they'll cut the texture artist, as opposed to the texture artist who also pitched a couple off good gameplay ideas for the game currently in development, while also voicing a couple of minor characters, or something like that. (Like how Joe Staten wrote the storyline and canon for the Halo universe, and voiced several of the characters, as well as handling cutscene work, too.)
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 20:24
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I got a friend that has a brother working at DICE. As far as I know he hasn't even finished High School but he got hired because he made some good maps for counterstrike. He works as a playtester right now I think
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Phaelax
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 20:39
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I don't think a game degree or certification is going to help anyone. Make something and show off a polished portfolio of what you can do, I think that'd would help more in this particular industry.

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
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The Zoq2
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 20:41
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I think a degree helps to, but if you don't have a degree, you can still manage to get into the industry
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Jeku
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 21:04
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Quote: "I got a friend that has a brother working at DICE. As far as I know he hasn't even finished High School but he got hired because he made some good maps for counterstrike. He works as a playtester right now I think"


*facepalm* Anyone can get a game tester job, but believe me it's the worst job in the industry. I've done it for two years and it was not fun.

As for gameversity, I'm not sure I'd trust them. I bought some of their courses back in 2008, just for fun. I already had a degree but I wanted to improve some of my AI skills. I remember checking the site every year since then, and their courses have NOT changed or been updated since then. The Direct3D course was decent, but I'm fairly sure they haven't updated that one in about 5 years or more.


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The Zoq2
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Posted: 16th Mar 2013 21:25
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Quote: "*facepalm* Anyone can get a game tester job, but believe me it's the worst job in the industry. I've done it for two years and it was not fun."


I know, he hates it. But I think he has got some promotions and on the way to becomming a level designer. You can probably get a better position in the beginning if you have degrees and stuff, but if you are not able to get that for whatever reason, it's still possible to get into the industry. You just have to start further down.
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Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 17th Mar 2013 00:34 Edited at: 17th Mar 2013 00:36
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@Jeku:

Judging by a blog post, they updated a lot of things just last year. It may be true that not all of their stuff is 100% up-to-date, but what course in any university could keep up-to-date, either? I appreciate the personal insight, though.

The way I look at it, if I joined Game Institute, became a member of a site like 3D Buzz and used both sources to learn, that would only be about $700 per year. That's much, MUCH better than a typical college course of the same nature, which even in my neck of the woods would run $2k+ per semester ($4k+ per year), not including textbooks...

Game Institute looks like a good place to start, I think I've read enough reviews that I'm just gonna go for it. If I like it, and find it incredibly useful, I will let you all know how I'm doing with it, although I likely won't "enroll" until the summer, when my savings account looks a little better.

EDIT: CoffeeGrunt, I'm considering studying both programming and 3D modeling/animation, and even level design eventually. I've already delved into Unity quite a bit, it's a great tool!

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greenlig
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Posted: 17th Mar 2013 15:08
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Start here. Don't waste your time and money on a certification that will get you exactly what effort will afford. What do you want to do? Code? Design? Art? All of 'em? Just get into it here. Make things, like Wolf said, learn from the net. There are plenty people here making their way sans degree or diploma!

Greenlig

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Jeku
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Posted: 17th Mar 2013 20:45 Edited at: 17th Mar 2013 20:46
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Also it's very rare to get a job as a "technical artist", or someone who is a rockstar at programming and a rockstar at design. If I were you I would choose one path and focus on it, becoming a rockstar at that one path. I have worked several years in the game industry and met just one guy who could do both.

If you choose programming, then get a real degree. I can only speak from experience, but I've only met 2 people who worked at EA who didn't have a degree. This was 2 people out of 50 programmers that I worked with every day.

If you choose the design route, then I have absolutely no idea what credentials an employer is looking for. Good luck though!


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 17th Mar 2013 23:53
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Quote: " but I've only met 2 people who worked at EA who didn't have a degree. This was 2 people out of 50 programmers that I worked with every day."


You worked at EA? Sorry to go off-topic, but is it as bad as the rumours say?

Also I think specialisation is key to this sort of industry.
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Jeku
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Posted: 18th Mar 2013 06:07 Edited at: 18th Mar 2013 06:11
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Quote: "You worked at EA? Sorry to go off-topic, but is it as bad as the rumours say?"


Yes and.. um, yes

I worked there for two titles as QA and Additional Programmer, and then after I got my degree I was there for over 3 years as a Front End Programmer and Lead Front End Programmer on a bunch of games. In Canada we were all pressured to work crazy hours, and they didn't pay us any overtime. Because we were on salary, and they couldn't technically make us work for free, we had to "volunteer" to come in because we felt we'd just get laid off if we didn't do that enough. I remember on NHL 2009 I worked for 7 weeks straight, 7 days in a row, and often 8-12 hours a day. For the low salary, it just wasn't worth it. That being said, it's like the McDonald's of the game industry; it looks great on your resume.

To add insult to injury I was laid off anyways with EA's regular "seasonal layoffs". I was laid off with 300 others in a single day. Fun! About two weeks after the layoff a recruiter from EA phoned me to ask if I want to work at EA on contract, and if I'd be willing to come in for a phone interview. I was floored because they didn't connect the dots and realize that I was already there for over 3 years! They just treat people like numbers because they have hundreds of fresh graduates who hand in their resumes and would love to work in the game industry.


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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 18th Mar 2013 20:34
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Wow, that sound horrible. I got made redundant when a company I worked at bit the fiscal dust, but getting swept out and forgotten must've been so much worse.

I think everyone sees companies like Valve, Bungie or Google, and think that every company operates like them. A shame, cos you'd have to boost your resume in other places to get to somewhere better.

I hope there's a happy ending to that story though, right?
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Jeku
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Posted: 22nd Mar 2013 23:23
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Happy ending to my story? After getting the boot I got a senior web dev job for 33% higher pay. That's pretty happy I'd say


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