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FPSC Classic Product Chat / No Audio Mods? I am hurt!

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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 29th Mar 2013 19:24
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Bein involved in the sound and music industry since 2003 I found myself deeply hurt that fps-creator nether supports the most basic audio functions nor has anyone tried to create a mod which would include such features.

Now music composing is my career which makes programming a weak spot in my skill list. I can not code mods but seeing as darkBASIC HAS the core audio control features and FPS creator doesn't, even though one is based on the other makes me sad.

Auditory aspect of game creation seems to be an under-appreciated topic as I see so far.

Hopefully Reloaded will provide a much more thought-through audio engine.

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
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Ekipshi
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Posted: 29th Mar 2013 19:34
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Here here! Hopefully reloaded will have at least a primitive 3D sound system.

You can still achieve a great deal of audio effects in FPSC now, it just takes a bit of ingenuity and creativity in both the engine and in the music/sounds themselves.

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Flatlander
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Posted: 29th Mar 2013 19:52
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@Tobias_Ripper, What exactly are you interested in seeing implemented?

As far as audio quality, I think the quality is good enough for the type of games FPSC can make. I have made a mod that utilizes audio a lot easier and for different uses. For example, RPG Mod has conversational talk boxes that one can display. Along with this the developer can actually use an audio voice over at the same time so that the player can not only here the character but read along with him. Also, there is the ability for lip synching with voice over. The only problem with this is that the character models have to have a mouth in the textures of the character as well as the mouth/lips having animation. It's available but only to those who are capable of creating characters that can use it.

I guess I don't understand what is needed in a game development tool that can be initially free and only costs 50 US dollars if one wants to redistribute stand-alone games. Maybe it something I can add.

THEORY - you know everything but nothing works. PRACTICE - when everything works but don't know why. For me, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and I don't know why.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 29th Mar 2013 21:41
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Well the basics needs for an audio engine are Volume, Pan, Reverb, Delay and EQ.

These settings will make a supreme audio engine but I was most shocked when I figured out that fps creator does not incorporate Panning feature. I need my crickets heard left and right dammit! Only with 3Dsound and even that is limited to hardware abilities.

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Flatlander
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Posted: 29th Mar 2013 23:10 Edited at: 29th Mar 2013 23:11
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I looked at what is called set sound pan. This seems to work pretty well. I also think I can add it to RPG Mod without messing up the sound in any way. I'll be looking at what more I might be able to do.

However, realize, that if I add it, it will only be available in RPG Mod.

THEORY - you know everything but nothing works. PRACTICE - when everything works but don't know why. For me, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and I don't know why.
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rolfy
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Posted: 29th Mar 2013 23:55 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 00:14
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3D spatial sound is fine to think about as it adds to gameplay with distance and direction of sound, volume is a must have and easy enough to set already. But to be honest delay, reverb and EQ are processing effects best done in an audio editor, you would be using memory and resources which should be reserved for more important things in a game engine.

Voice overs ideally should be 8bit mono anything else is pointless overkill.

Theme music of course should be 16bit stereo and any processing and mastering done before loading into game.

Quote: "I need my crickets heard left and right dammit!"

Simply pan left and right in your audio editor before importing to FPSC.

Dont get me wrong on all this I like audio too, Dark Basic is more than a game creation tool and in fact you could create an audio editor program with it so you have these functions. FPSC is a game creation tool and therefore audio is not as important.
I do agree with spatial audio all the same but it might again be that it would use resources I would prefer to use on gameplay.
I dont know for sure how difficult it would be either as you need to tie it to player position.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
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Wolf
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 00:44
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You can do a lot audiowise in FPSC if you like to. It will involve a little scripting though. You can have zones, sounds that increase or decrease in volume depending on how far you are away from a certain object (visible or invisible) Environment sounds, music, there is this lipsync thing that nobody ever used and I bet you find a lot more if you try.



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The Zombie Killer
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 01:55
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I'll see if I can add something like this into the community mod.

@Flatlander
This looks like a nice plugin we could use in both of our mods.

-TZK


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Flatlander
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 02:35 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 02:48
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@TZK,

I was going to send you an email about this thread. I didn't see that plug-in because I was searching the DBPro thread. Thanks for it.

I created a sound using nothing but DBPro source and putting the sound into a memblock. I didn't load a sound file but simply played the sound. Download the 7z file that contains the exe. It's only 804 KB. A function was created and the following data went into it. This is based on Ric's Create Sound code.



Data that went into memblock



Here is where you generate and write the wave in the function



Tobias_Ripper you probably should recognize some of the terminology and understand the code a little bit.

This is some fun stuff.

THEORY - you know everything but nothing works. PRACTICE - when everything works but don't know why. For me, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and I don't know why.
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s4real
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 02:57 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 04:32
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All this is pretty pointless for this game engine.

You can pan and have 3d sound in fpsc already as its already a feature, re verb, eq is only needed for mastering or production side so does not need to be in the engine and this would reduce frame rate.

Adding to much to the engine would just slow down the game even pro games use mastered music or sound with re verb,eq and other mastering tricks.

So I feel this don't need any more work doing to it myself just record it in.

I admit that the 3d sound could be better but its in there.

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Flatlander
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 03:28 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 03:31
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@s4real

I'm a programmer at heart and I just find anything new for me to learn is very exciting and fun. However, when it comes right down to it, I agree with you. All sounds can be created outside of FPSC, and then loaded as a sound file into FPSC and then played when needed.

I have three sound applications that I use.

MorphVox Pro that I use for voice overs and even sound effects. There's a lot of different effects that can be used.

DCart - in addition to many audio restoration features, audio enhancement capability has been incorporated. You can use this for providing special audio effects for movie, radio, television, stage theatrical use, or game development.

FL Studio - FL Studio is a full-featured music production environment capable of multi-track audio recording, sequencing and mixing for the creation of professional quality music tracks. With VST & DX hosting, a flexible 99 insert-track mixer, advanced MIDI, DX and ReWire support no musical style will be beyond your reach. Songs or loops can be exported to .wav, .mp3, .ogg or .mid format.

I use these in to pre-record sound and then play them at the appropriate time.

There is one thing that I think might be useful to RPG Mod and that is the panning sound.

The DBPro code test for this is very simple.



While the sound is playing (crickets for example) we could cause the crickets to be either on the left, center, or right speakers depending on how the developer wants to create it. This will not take up any resources at all. It will not slow down frame rates either. It just simple sets where the sound is coming from from the hardware standpoint. The FPSC modder will just need to create commands to allow for this. Actually, this will be very easy to do.

From an RPG viewpoint we could have sounds coming from the left of the player and another sound coming from the right of the player. These could be voices. Also, this is an easy way to pan a sound from left to right or from right to left as if a something is moving in that direction (a train?). Sound volume might be useful as well. A sound that starts out very low and then increases in volume and then decreases again as if the sound is coming towards the player and then moves away. This also will not take up resources or frame rates. It will just be a matter of accessing the audio hardware and simulates direction of the sound. At least this is how I'm seeing it.

BTW, I don't believe pan is a feature of FPSC as the DBPro command that controls it is not included in the FPSC engine.

THEORY - you know everything but nothing works. PRACTICE - when everything works but don't know why. For me, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and I don't know why.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 03:35 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 03:48
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Well, unfortunately i'm going to have to disagree with the some points made by s4real and Flatlander BUT with all due respect of course.

It is true that EQ Reverb and Delay ARE in fact a part of Mixing and Mastering BUT those are only two of the many ways those plug-ins can be used.

First of all by using HQ and Delay you can significantly improve your spacial definitions. By cutting high fequencies, lowering volume and adding a short delay effect you crate an dull echo of the sound. Clear Example can be heard here starting at 1:38 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7QT2Y_kt5k


Now the point in terms of panning - YES you CAN in fact programm a way around it like panning the same sound in your program which will give you two of the same STEREO sounds one panned left and one right and then in FPI calculating the player facing direction and then checking the coordinates of the player to see which sound (left panned or right panned) to place and create a volume (or scale as it is called in FPI for some reason) cross-fade between the tow. Now this is 1 - a lot of unnecessary coding. 2 - you now have to use 2 sounds for each sample you want to have panning enabled thus almost doubling the size of your audio library. 3 - (and I believe the most important) You have 3 rooms in your game, A vast ancient hallway from an abandonment advanced civilization. A small library room and a street alley.
With an implemented Delay/Reverb you can use just ONEfootsteps audio file for ALL three environments. s4real is right, you CAN just use an audio software to edit your sounds buy for every spacial environment, you will have to have a separate audio file. Every time you have a Hallway, Room, Cave, Street, Garden, Greenhouse, Basement, Attic, Bathrum. you will have to create a new variation of the same sound for every one of those environments. but again:

This is only if you want your game to SOUND good, and unless your game is directed by Charlie Chaplin, i don't think you should neglect the auditory aspect of the game.

I really feel sad that features like this are called un-nessesary, just makes it sound (to me) like audio aspect of the game is a minor thing to think about. We once again are talking about FPS creator here, a software which is made for users to eliminate the need of programming.

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 03:48
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Quote: "I really feel sad that features like this are called un-nessesary, just makes it sound (to me) like audio aspect of the game is a minor thing to think about."

Nobody is saying its minor, whats being said is its not worth the time, effort and cost to processing it real time. The use you describe above with EQ and delay is still better done pre-processing rather than coding into the engine and all the pernickety scripting required to achieve it, no matter the engine be it FPSC or not.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 03:53 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 03:55
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Quote: "rolfy:: Nobody is saying its minor..."

umm..
Quote: "s4real:: All this is pretty pointless for a game engine."

Sorry.

Quote: "This is only if you want your game to SOUND good, and unless your game is directed by Charlie Chaplin, i don't think you should neglect the auditory aspect of the game."

*had to add this last part, you responded quicker.

Unfortunately I don't think that anyone can really appreciate audio aspect of their games unless they have spent some time in the craft of audio engineering.

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s4real
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:00 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 04:13
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@F l a t l a n d e r :- I understand but I can't see the difference just having the cricket record to the left, middle and right as it would need the same amount of triggerzones if you did it with the code.

But its something new maybe If you want to learn something work away to have a flashlight like a shader flashlight but not using a shader lol.







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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:02 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 04:03
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Quote: "you now have to use 2 sounds for each sample you want to have panning enabled thus almost doubling the size of your audio library"

You would simply use one sound if you could pan it.

Quote: " Every time you have a Hallway, Room, Cave, Street, Garden, Greenhouse, Basement, Attic, Bathrum. you will have to create a new variation of the same sound for every one of those environments."

You answer your own question here, you of course would require different audio files for each surface, its unavoidable and post processing really is far more intensive than different sounds, which for those who know nothing about audio trying to make a footstep sound which was originally a stone floor sound like wood would to me be far more difficult for the 'non programmer'.

I am not arguing for the sake of it, if you can implement and create the sound effects you want and create your own music then thats great, but the reason you dont get much of it in FPSC games is because its a whole different ball game from simply point and click to make a game. Its the same with modeling and shader creation etc its not something you can just drop into the editor and off you go.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:04
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Oh, Oh s4real - Well if you, for example, have a cricket sound panned to the left. You walk in the forest and then you turn around 180 degrees. Well, why would the cricket be still panned the the left if his "assumed position" is not to the right? Its the little things that you start only appreciate when it is taken away.

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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:07
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rolfy - Yeah, i know, i know. Still disappointing about the panning. Plus i mean her, its only gets better that way, its not like Were taking away features.

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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:09
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Quote: "Unfortunately I don't think that anyone can really appreciate audio aspect of their games unless they have spent some time in the craft of audio engineering."

You do realise that sound engineering and music production is s4's real life profession.

Quote: "Oh, Oh s4real - Well if you, for example, have a cricket sound panned to the left. You walk in the forest and then you turn around 180 degrees. Well, why would the cricket be still panned the the left if his "assumed position" is not to the right? Its the little things that you start only appreciate when it is taken away."

I already agreed that spatial 3d sound would be great what I dont agree with is sound processing (reverb,delay...whatever) being real time in a game engine.

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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:17 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 04:26
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Well I speak in general programming and (audio)newbie population - but to think that an experienced audio engineer would say that audio aspects implemented in a game engine is a bogus idea is, to me, equivalent to a programmer say "Stop using variables, they are useless in video games". Well its either that or have 6 variations of the same sound for each environment (if you want to dramatically expand on presenting your environment of course) and using processing tools like reverb, delay and eq is the way it is done. (but don't confuse the environment in which the player walks and the material that the player walks ON) obviously then if you walk on hard-wood floor and tiles, you can either have 2 foot-steps samples with real time processing or.. well.. 12.. pre-processed samples. Depends on what you want to sacrifice, Hard Drive space or CPU load. I just thing that FPS creator is a great game engine and these idea by no means will make it worse. In fact anything here will only make it more compete-able among "3rd brand engine"

PS: I should apologieze to everyone by the way, including F l a t l a n d e r, rolfy and s4real. It is usually very hard for me to let go of my opinion*. So my apologies

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s4real
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:26
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Don't get me wrong it would be nice to have DSP effects and surround sound and soft mood technology in the engine but this would cost to much to add and DBO does not support these features as far as I'm aware.

Its just not worth the time for such a low cost engine so cheap audio tricks can be used for this.

The 3dsound feature in fpsc should do what you want with the cricket example, I admit its not the best and I'm not sure how well it works as I can't think of many people using it.

I think bond used it for his rickroll character and thats about the only thing its been used in.

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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:30
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Oh yeah, and the 3DSound command is not even that good since, well, whether it works or not solely depends on whether your sound-card supports 3D sound processing. I really don't feel like having my players complain that some can-not hear sounds. Or even worse not realize that there is so much more to the audio of the game but they just can't hear it.

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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:35
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Sigh! I dont know where you get 12 audio samples required to represent these different areas. I will be honest the player wouldn't notice the minor differences between a wood floor hallway or corridor, they might notice the difference between a huge hall and a room but not minor scales. Besides you dont compare costs on the engine with this real time processing which would actually be very high.
Its also a fact that the player wants great gameplay and cares nothing about 'real' sounds, this may annoy you and make you sad but its how it is, they bought a game not a soundtrack.

Its a trade off like any aspect of game creation, you wont have enough realism in environments and characters for some, nor will you have perfect audio reproduction, its not something I would spend a great deal of time on when I have so many other things to consider and as I say its very minor to the player, if you think this is unfair on audiophiles then you have to realise its simply not a priority for the Indie developer.

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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:46 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 04:48
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It's the little things that count but yeah I get where you are coming from.

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s4real
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:49
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All games rely on hardware supporting there audio engine and every soundcard of today supports 3dsound anyway.

I don't think you got a good argument for having a good sound engine in a low budget game making tool myself and its not going to happen in the official.


There plenty of workarounds to make what you want happen and as a engineer as well you should be able to do these pretty simple.

Maybe at a later date if I have time I will look at what feature can be added to fpsc.

I'm not saying its not important to have a good audio engine and I agree with you 100% its just not friable with fpsc.

Also when adding new things like surround sound there things like copyright to thing about for TGC.

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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:52
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If you go the extra mile then it will be noticed, but if you don't then it wont even be mentioned, unless your really missing some sounds that would enhance the immersion the player.
Its the same with graphics, drop in something outstanding at the beginning of a game and the player will swear it was a feature throughout it, even if it wasn't included after the first level.

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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:53 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 04:54
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You gotta admit, it would make an impressive arse low budget indie game huh

I just come from my own analogy, if its worth doing, its worth doing the best damn possible way it can be.

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BlackFox
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 04:59
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I'm sorry, but I just had to add my 2 cents Canadian (actually 5 cents now that we did away with the penny). I mod our current source version and have spent many hours fixing issues that (quite honestly) should not have happened in the first place. Currently the engine cannot copy all required files into a build correctly, and we're debating sound? You have to walk before you can run. If the engine can fix some of the core issues first, then let's look at bonus features like sound.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:00
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The Fox has spoken

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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:04
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It doesn't hurt to dream

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BlackFox
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:12 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 05:12
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Quote: "It doesn't hurt to dream"


No it does not, but some of us have seen this engine over the years being developed and some critical issues not getting addressed. People come in and want it to do this and do that, and there is really no serious attention into core issues- the core issues either get buried or forgotten when the new "cool" features get tested and shown to the public.

I spent a day and a half rewriting our entire source last week and made it our good working copy. I had missed some critical issues in the core before that just made me shake my head and ask "why". Now I can add features with ease, and do not suffer most (99%) of the issues the current source does. Unless the "team" can get their heads together and really sort out some of the core irritants that seem to keep plaguing the engine, I just don't see your "sound" option working out the way you seem to envision it. Besides, if your idea is to catch the eye of the developers, you are probably better to take this to the Reloaded thread section. I do not see it happening in v1 of FPSC.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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s4real
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:14
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Quote: "fixing issues that (quite honestly) should not have happened in the first place"


Amen to that.


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BlackFox
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:18
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Quote: "spent many hours fixing issues that (quite honestly) should not have happened in the first place."


Quote: "Amen to that."


And for the record, this is not directed at Scene Commander and his abilities. The issues I speak of come before he even began working on the source and Beta's. There was just some things added and done that really should not have happened in the first place, and stuff added that (quite frankly) is about as useless as a microwave in an igloo.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:24
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Quote: " about as useless as a microwave in an igloo."

This in fact is a major requirement, ask any penguin.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
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BlackFox
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:38
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Quote: "This in fact is a major requirement, ask any penguin."


Nuu-uhh. The last penguin used a microwave and melted our igloo. Blue was not happy.

We ended up barbequing the penguin...


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:38 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 05:43
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Ok ok, I understand that you have some good points but this is not a thread to express them in. This was an audio thread. Not core issue thread. Just saying that bugs and issues in the code have nothing to do with the audio implementation. I absolutely do not mean to be rude or anything but you have kind of converted this thread from what I was talking about. to what you want to talk about. So apart from me being butthurt about it, well... there's nothing I could really do here

And yeah, with the FPS reloaded coming out there isn't really much use suggesting improvements to the current build. And I do hope that reloaded will bring more features to the table for everyone, not just audio engineers.

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
Composers Page: http://milothatch.isenstadtstudio.com
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BlackFox
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:45 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 05:48
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Quote: "I absolutely do not mean to be rude or anything but you have kind of converted this thread from what I was talking about."


I responded based on the debate of whether audio implementation is viable or not. My opinion to why it is not was based on the points I raised. Like it or not, trying to add new features is not an easy task with this engine, considering the state it is in now (no offense Scene Commander). It is hard to find some things, other items you want to change are embedded all over the place. Add something in the wrong order and the entire source has a temper tantrum.

Quote: "Just saying that bugs and issues in the code have nothing to do with the audio implementation."


Yes, they do. Any audio implementation would further augment the issues the source currently has. Besides, as I pointed out in a previous post, it is very unlikely it will be in v1 of this engine. You could take your idea over to the Reloaded thread and see if it catches the eye of the development team. You just might have an idea that they may be able to do more easily than this source.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:49
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Well then my analogy applies to you just as well. "If its worth doing, its worth doing the best damn possible way it can be."

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
Composers Page: http://milothatch.isenstadtstudio.com
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BlackFox
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 05:53
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Quote: "Well then my analogy applies to you just as well. "If its worth doing, its worth doing the best damn possible way it can be.""


I said that very thing when I rebuilt our igloo.


There's no problem that can't be solved without applying a little scripting.
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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 06:00
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Just installed the new microwave, roast penguin anyone?

The current state of FPSC is very relevant, if it cant be done without causing further issue then its going to be very difficult, maybe even impossible to 'do it well'.

We all have our opinions Tobias you have to accept that when you post yours your asking for others and some may not agree with you

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 06:22
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Oh yeah

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
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Flatlander
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 17:03 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 17:15
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Quote: " Oh yeah"


Is there an attitude problem I'm noticing?

In reading several DBPro books and tutorials, some have said, "Sound is quite often more important than the graphics in a game." It is clear that humans interact primarily through speech and sound. It should therefore be no surprise that sound is a vital part of any new game. 3D sound is even more relevant as it gives the effects of being fully immersed in an environment filled with sounds from every direction.

However, I am with s4real. I know him a lot more than I know you, Tobias_Ripper. At this point I totally trust his opinion as it is easy to come on to a forum and make all sorts of claims. So far, there is nothing you have said that actually makes me think you truly are an expert with audio.

All environmental or background sound/music is created as a 3d Sound automatically. Therefore, creating an excellent recording of whatever sounds you want in the 3D environment should be something that one would know how to do and accept it without a problem. So, TR, are you not familiar enough with great audio programs, such as FL to create such audio files?

Before I continue with this lengthy post I would like to say the following. Especially for the benefit to those who do not understand how digital audio works. The sound in the analog wave format presents a problem for the computer. The computer only knows how to represent data in terms of 1s and 0s. A sound wave has more than two states attached to it. The sound must be digitized. The sound card is what convert from analog to digital sound. A sound card takes "snapshots" of the sound wave at different intervals. The process of taking these "snapshots" is called sampling. A video camera takes between 24 and 30 pictures a second but a sound card samples a sound at many thousands times a second. The frequency of the sound wave is the number of times the sound wave raised and falls over a period of time. The sampling rate of a sound wave is also called frequency because it samples the sound at a specific number of times per second. A CD-quality sound is sampled at 44 Hz (samples per second).

When sampling a sound, a bit rate is also establish. A bit rate is the amount of bits used to describe a single sample of sound. Because every sound varies in amplitude, a bit rate needs to be established to represent the height (or depth) of the amplitude. Bit rates are generally referred to by the number of bits each sample contains. A CD-quality sound has a bit rate of 16 bits. That means every sample in the sound has a total of 16 bits of data to it.

A wave file (.wav) is a wave file that contains all the samplings of an analog sound file. It is an uncompressed file and therefore can be quite large. But it will yield the best quality sound for the game.

All this said, it boils down to the fact that the quality of the sound in a game is determined by the sound files provided and the sound card the developer and/or player has in their computer. Even if the sound file is a .wav file the sound may be of poorer quality because of a low end sound card. A high end sound card will yield even better results for a compressed sound file that is provided with the game.

FPSC allows for 3D sound. When the sound is loaded as a 3D sound, it is flagged or tagged as such so that it can be handled in a different by the sound card; if the sound card has the features to do so.

At this point it is totally up to the hardware and the sound file. For an engine that only costs 49 US this is quite sufficient and is more that can and should be asked for as far as I and others are concerned.

There is only one FPSC command that is useful to change the attribute of a sound and that is "musicvolume." This only effects the volume of the background sound.

Description of musicvolume=X: This sets the volume level of the background sound/music. The volume defined by X is converted by FPSC using the following formula:



The internal volume can be set between 0 and 100 so to find the value of X to set the desired volume use the following formula:



Example: :state=1:musicvolume=-350

Addendum:

DBPro has commands that can create positional sounds. Position Sound, Position Listener, and, Rotating Listener. However, utilizing these in FPSC will effect the performance of FPSC.

I have already mentioned a trick to emulate the positioning of sound even when the player has only two speakers or headphones which is more likely the case. It is using panning and volume control. However, FPSC does not have this capability. Maybe it would be something to look into as this would not effect FPSC performance.

THEORY - you know everything but nothing works. PRACTICE - when everything works but don't know why. For me, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and I don't know why.
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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 18:16 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 19:36
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"Oh yeah" as was directed to rolfy for his point on:
Quote: "We all have our opinions Tobias you have to accept that when you post yours your asking for others and some may not agree with you"

No need to get all jumpy, now.

Perhaps my words may not have substantial wight on this forum but once again, I stand by my opinion - I believe that it would be ignorant to think that such powerful tools would not be needed in an idie game engine especially when you are in a competitive software market. Once again, wouldn't hurt, wouldn't make it worse. Perhaps I even will make a post of feature suggestion in Reloaded Forum.

Quote: " So, TR, are you not familiar enough with great audio programs, such as FL to create such audio files?"

I find this an unnecessary and disrespectful mockery of ones skill. Just as much as I assume that you know what you are talking about, I expect a respectable member to do the same for others.

Quote: "A CD-quality sound is sampled at 44 Hz (samples per second)."
44.1* if it was 44hz you would lose data if a devise set up for 44.1 would play it. A change that can not be significantly recognized by the human ear but it's good to be technically correct. 44.056 - NTSC video feed.

I also believe that if my computer which is just about 4 - 5 years old can process a 40 track orchestral piece with each track processing hundreds of samples with each instrument channel having an insert of EQs, Compressors AND each track sent to a Convolution reverb and Delay channels while everything together being processed by a master channel processor. I hardly doubt that a machine these days will have a hard time processing 2 or 3 SOUNDS with a merely Digital Reverb and Delay effect.

3DSound Feature is hardware Driven and, as it appears to be, uses outdated technology. No game industry respecting developer would go "You don't have this particular piece of hardware, too bad."
And lastly, proper auditory description of the environment is much much larger spectrum of variables than just Volume and Pan, which is all the 3Dsound feature was described to be able to do.

Quote: "FPSC does not have this capability. Maybe it would be something to look into as this would not effect FPSC performance."

To this I Agree.

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
Composers Page: http://milothatch.isenstadtstudio.com
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s4real
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 21:12
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Quote: "44.1* if it was 44hz you would lose data if a devise set up for 44.1 would play it. A change that can not be significantly recognized by the human ear but it's good to be technically correct. 44.056 - NTSC video feed."


Lets not get all music tech as this is going to go over many heads and getting into a who better than who thread.

If you want to be technically correct the human ear detects at 20khz but to reproduce that sound perfectly it has to be twice the amount of
bandwidth. Thus, the sample rate needed to be over 40 kHz. So anything over 40khz can be heard by the human ear.

The exact sampling rate of 44.1 kHz is inherited from a method of
converting digital audio into an analog video signal for storage on video
tape, which was the most affordable way to store it at the time the CD
specification was being developed.


Quote: "I also believe that if my computer which is just about 4 - 5 years old can process a 40 track orchestral piece with each track processing hundreds of samples with each instrument channel having an insert of EQs, Compressors AND each track sent to a Convolution reverb and Delay channels while everything together being processed by a master channel processor. I hardly doubt that a machine these days will have a hard time processing 2 or 3 SOUNDS with a merely Digital Reverb and Delay effect."


The reason you can do this on your computer is because you using advanced audio engines in the software you using and asio audio drivers(or more advanced) designed for this using less cpu and hit on your computer.

But anyway you all have good points in your arguments.

Maybe reloaded would add better sound but like I said before this can all be done with some skills.

At the end of the day a production team making a game has to get pro musicians, sound fx guys and so on. The engine not designed to do everything for you just the tools to make it a bit easier.

best s4real

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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 21:37 Edited at: 31st Mar 2013 02:28
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Its all in the purpose, By no means these features should replace the mixing and mastering processes of hired engeneers. But there are some major things that can not be achieved with pre-produced samples.

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
Composers Page: http://milothatch.isenstadtstudio.com
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Flatlander
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 21:43 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 21:44
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Your right s4real. I no longer will participate in this thread and will probably not interact with the author of this thread in the future.

At this point I have no desire to create new sound commands for my mod.

THEORY - you know everything but nothing works. PRACTICE - when everything works but don't know why. For me, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and I don't know why.
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rolfy
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 21:46 Edited at: 30th Mar 2013 22:37
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Folks can talk all day about sound engineering and how their comp can handle all thats going on, whats not being talked about really is the fact that all this seems to be expected alongside the load that the game itself is using.

It takes a lot of optimising as it is to prevent lag in any FPSC game, it might be possible for bigger companies with the right kind of expert knowledge to implement these features efficiently into their engine. If you want these features then you will likely have to pay big bucks for it and I dont see that as being something a small company would make priority.

If someone wants to create a mod with it then thats up to them, but its not something your going to get by arguing your point in this way.

Here's the way it is, there are some very innovative games created by individuals who use their skillset to build a game that stands out according to their talent. Thing is they don't expect others to give them the resources to do so, if yyou cant mod the engine yourself then you can ask someone to do it for you but getting upset because they say they have no vested interest in doing so, is something you just have to accept. Maybe if you tried to mod it yourself you would find the answer.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
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s4real
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Posted: 30th Mar 2013 22:33
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Quote: " But there are some major things that can not be achieved with pre-produced samples."


Not sure what can't be done.

I checked out your stuff and you done some nice work, productions is good and clean.

Sounds like you using East west plugin's

I feel with your skills this should not be a problem within fpsc what you want to do.

I will look at the sound side at a later date for my mod but its well on the bottom of the list.

The problem as rolfy has said is the performance hits on the framerate.


best s4real

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Tobias_Ripper
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Posted: 31st Mar 2013 02:26
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Yeah, that dissapointing. FPSC is has so much potential.

Isenstadt Studio: http://isenstadtstudio.com/
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