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Geek Culture / Information request about World War II

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mr Handy
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Posted: 9th May 2013 23:48
Hi guys, we celebrating World War II end these week (annual), so just wondering: what is written of it in your local textbooks? I mean, some people even say that some textbooks say that Germany won. Just drop few lines.

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Crazy Acorn
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Posted: 10th May 2013 02:21
Aliens invaded in July of '44 and took the earth while humans were weak. Not sure if this is a textbook

NIlooc223
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Posted: 10th May 2013 03:04
It never happened it was a conspiracy created by the illuminati. They created this hoax so that aliens would be scared to come thinking we were evil and stuff but long behold aliens came around 43 and 44ish and a huge war happened but we don't remember it because the Men in Black used those memory forgetting things and that is why we do not know the truth about WW2....
Le Shorte
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Posted: 10th May 2013 05:59
@Nilloc
You know too much. You should have never revealed your extensive knowledge.

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th May 2013 09:46 Edited at: 10th May 2013 09:48
There's always the History channel, where the facts are history.



There's a LOT of information about WWII, so it'd be a huuuuge post if I were to discuss what I've read about WII, was taught in school and have watched in documentaries...heck, I watched on the other day, which just focused on smart bombs, including BF Skinner's pidgeon piloted bomb, which would have been kinda cool if they ever used it. Though a bit cruel on the poor pidgeons.

If you're on about who won the war? I don't think it's as simple as winning & losing. Because whilst there were victories, there were losses from all sides. Heck, whilst you could say Germany lost the war, it was also a victory for them, they lost the grip of a cruel dictator, people were no longer oppressed by a Nazi regime and many people were brought to justice and for Germany it meant they could start fixing their society and rebuild for the better. For others, it meant not feeling the threat Germany was to their countries like the Czech Republic, Poland, France and others.

Bear in mind also Germany wasn't the only country people fought against in the war, countries like Japan also played their part - there's actually an interesting novel, fictional I know, but it kinda addresses Japan's involvement in the second world war and in a way, suggests Japan's loss was for the better for them as a country. The book is called An Artist of a Floating World by Kazuo Ishiguro, the novel also suggests loss in their national identity.

Van B
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Posted: 10th May 2013 10:25
You should look at the inventions made during WWII, like radar, the wide use of penicillin, synthetic rubber, jet engines, nuclear power.

The negative aspects have been covered already several times over. When I was at primary school, we learned all about the London blitz. In high school we learned more about the political aspects and Hitler and cronies in general. But the best stories comes from the people who actually lived it.

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Posted: 10th May 2013 11:35
Speaking of which, the invention of the computer should make for a very interesting topic. Alan Turing made an excellent contribution to the war and technology in general. He helped crack the enigma code and help pioneer the early computers and was a genius of mathematics, also responsible for some of our principles surround AI. Unfortunately, he barely got a mention at school, yet you could say there's a lot we owe him.

Wiki.

mr Handy
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Posted: 10th May 2013 15:17 Edited at: 10th May 2013 15:20
I mean, did you noticed any history "rewriting"? Like there was "A" twenty years ago and today there's "B". They say some European countries these days rewrite some WW2 moments due to new politics. That's all related to textbook for schools, not special literature.

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Van B
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Posted: 10th May 2013 15:45 Edited at: 10th May 2013 15:47
The Discovery channel has certainly sensationalized some of it... Like a documentary about UFO's, and how Nazi scientists were involved in experimental craft that were able to blah blah blah... That sort of stuff goes on a lot. Discovery are getting as bad as TLC.

I do know what you mean though - things like our own countries war crimes are glossed over or removed from history completely. I think that every country is guilty of that to some extent, you could say that some countries are still filling kids heads with lies to protect their national identity. Sorry if that's political, but anyway the impression I get is that any country that was involved with the Nazi's tend to be vague when it comes to exact history. The truth of the matter is that for a lot of Europe, there were no 'friendlies' - just a few hundred thousand soldiers marching through, wrecking the place as they went. Some of the best stories of WW2 are about the underdogs standing up for themselves. Example?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

705 kills in 100 days with no scope... that would be an achievement in a videogame, never mind a bloomin war!

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 10th May 2013 16:30 Edited at: 10th May 2013 16:34
I suspect there are myths surrounding the war and some stories exagerated or told differently depending on the perspective, as is the nature of storytelling. History as a topic is difficult one as far as 100% reliability goes, but there are things we can say are definite facts, but sometimes eye witness testimony isn't necessarily reliable. Typically this is why historians do not rely on a single source. For the second world war, we've got the advantage in that it's so well documented and so recent (with people who lived it still alive) there's a lot we can know to be accurate and true.

Of course, how people recall stories can depend on their reconstructive memory of those events, have a look at how reconstructive memory works. Beliefs and expectations can affect the gaps in your memory to create a coherant string of events. Social expectations and other factors can bear influence too. Some people can just add a little extra juice to a story to make it an anecdote or more interesting to listen to.

An example of reconstructive memory is my telling of the day I met John Major in Tescos, I was pretty sure it was around the elections (I was a kid) and cracked a joke about Tony Blair, apparently it was never around that time and I probably didn't make the joke. It makes for a good anecdote. However, I did definitely meet him in Tescos, he only lives 5 minutes away from me, so it's not so unlikely to bump into him either.

Quik
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Posted: 10th May 2013 17:32
My teacher specifically told me: US IS NOT THE BEST, AND THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY ONE INVOLVED ASIDE FROM GERMANY...
also they threw 2 nuclear bombs at japan, and still to this day have the thinking: "they deserve it >:"


Otherwise i dont remember anything specifically odd about my schooling ~~



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xplosys
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Posted: 10th May 2013 17:38
Quote: "My teacher specifically told me: US IS NOT THE BEST, AND THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY ONE INVOLVED ASIDE FROM GERMANY...
also they threw 2 nuclear bombs at japan, and still to this day have the thinking: "they deserve it >:""


Now I'm beginning to see where the attitude comes from, though I did suspect you were being taught these things all along.

Brian.
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Posted: 11th May 2013 00:04 Edited at: 11th May 2013 00:04
Quote: " US IS NOT THE BEST, AND THEY WERE NOT THE ONLY ONE INVOLVED ASIDE FROM GERMANY..."

That's interesting. From what I've heard most countries outside the US preach the opposite. We'd have to hear from our British residents on the forum, but I've heard it to be especially true in England.

Quote: "and still to this day have the thinking: "they deserve it >:""

Awfully radical teacher This isn't true at all (with the exception of a few equally radical thinkers on the other end of the spectrum scattered about)

Quote: "Now I'm beginning to see where the attitude comes from, though I did suspect you were being taught these things all along."

huh?

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Indicium
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Posted: 11th May 2013 00:17
The US joined in at the end.


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mr Handy
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Posted: 11th May 2013 00:28
@Indicium
Umm... no? Attack on Pearl Harbor: December 7, 1941

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CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 11th May 2013 00:35
Oh thank God, I swear if someone said "we saved your ass in World War 2, I would quit this thread."

I think that all the countries have bad things. I mean, we in Britain like to believe we are the stoic bulldogs who weathered the Nazi storm in the skies with the valiant efforts of the RAF, while deceiving them with tactical wit and plucky sleight-of-hand to keep things like D-Day a secret.

Yet in high school we were taught that we were no better. I can't remember which city it was, but it had a large industrial component key to the Nazi war machine. They were ordered to bomb the houses. Why? "Because the Nazi war machine can replace a factory in months, but it'll take them 16 years to replace the workers."

WWII was all about revenge. Germany wanted revenge on the world for the Treaty of Versailles. Russia wanted revenge for the devastation of Stalingrad. America for Pearl Harbour. Britain for the Blitz.

I think WWI left with Germany holding the blame for what was essentially a political hiccup that escalated into the slaughter of millions on either side. Lasting three years after it was supposed to end, everyone cut Germany's resources down to the bone leaving it in a pitiful state come the 1930s depression.

I have to be honest, I don't think there's a country in the world that wouldn't have supported a fascist regime if it fed their children and gave them pride and purpose in life. It's sad, but look at the sudden rise of Right Wing parties in poor countries Europe at the moment.

Sorry for this uber political post. I hope we can keep this talk sensible and level-headed, as I quite like talking history.
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Posted: 11th May 2013 00:42 Edited at: 11th May 2013 00:44
Quote: "That's interesting. From what I've heard most countries outside the US preach the opposite. We'd have to hear from our British residents on the forum, but I've heard it to be especially true in England."


The way I understand it there were contributions and help from many places, all were valuable in ending the war and bringing down dictators. I don't think you could argue one country's actions were greatest. From what I understand it was the unification of different countries that ended the war, not a single country's contributions.

Insert Name Here
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Posted: 11th May 2013 01:01
Quote: "That's interesting. From what I've heard most countries outside the US preach the opposite. We'd have to hear from our British residents on the forum, but I've heard it to be especially true in England."


It's been a loooong time since I took a history class. It's taught in so much detail over here it's kinda hard for there to be too much pro/anti American bias - we tend to focus more on the effects on British life.

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bruce3371
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Posted: 11th May 2013 02:28 Edited at: 11th May 2013 02:32
Quote: "WWII was all about revenge. Germany wanted revenge on the world for the Treaty of Versailles. Russia wanted revenge for the devastation of Stalingrad. America for Pearl Harbour. Britain for the Blitz.

I think WWI left with Germany holding the blame for what was essentially a political hiccup that escalated into the slaughter of millions on either side. Lasting three years after it was supposed to end, everyone cut Germany\'s resources down to the bone leaving it in a pitiful state come the 1930s depression.
"


There's a school of thought that there was in fact only ONE World War, with a 21 year cease fire between 1918 and 1939. And that the war in the Far East actually started in 1937 at Marco Polo Bridge.

Following on from that, there's another school of thought that says that WW2 was in fact 2 seperate conflicts (one in Europe, the other in the Far East) that merged in 1941 when America entered the war, creating a global confict...

swissolo
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Posted: 11th May 2013 02:41
Quote: "The way I understand it there were contributions and help from many places, all were valuable in ending the war and bringing down dictators. I don't think you could argue one country's actions were greatest. From what I understand it was the unification of different countries that ended the war, not a single country's contributions."

Absolutely.

Quote: "It's been a loooong time since I took a history class. It's taught in so much detail over here it's kinda hard for there to be too much pro/anti American bias - we tend to focus more on the effects on British life."

I can understand that. For such an event to impact an entire people for such an extensive period of time... not something to forget.

Quote: "Yet in high school we were taught that we were no better."

Makes me proud of global education systems. This seems to be mostly universal so far.

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Indicium
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Posted: 11th May 2013 02:55
Quote: ": "Yet in high school we were taught that we were no better."


Sorry - Am I completely missing something here? No better than genocide?


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ionstream
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Posted: 11th May 2013 04:10
Yeah I'm with you Indicium. There are some things that are a gray area in life - World War friggin 2 is not among them.

swissolo
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Posted: 11th May 2013 05:05
Quote: "
Sorry - Am I completely missing something here? No better than genocide?"

Similar acts occured in Allied countries as well. We all know it wasn't to the same extremities for the most part, but they still happened. It's up to you ethically to decide what it means. (segragation, Japanese American concetration camps, atomic bomb, civilian air raids over Germany etc.)

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Phaelax
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Posted: 11th May 2013 08:37
Quote: "WWII was all about revenge. Germany wanted revenge on the world for the Treaty of Versailles. Russia wanted revenge for the devastation of Stalingrad. America for Pearl Harbour. Britain for the Blitz."


Pearl Harbor, the main reason we got involved in the first place. I just wonder how different things could have been if we were never attacked. Normady could have been very different outcome, and the whole war itself.

No doubt the stories of WW2 are told differently here than in Europe. We jumped in late, and the fighting wasn't on our doorstep like so many other countries. For instance, The American Revolution is taught in great detail here, but I've heard from others in Britain that it's only briefly mentioned in history class.

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Quik
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Posted: 11th May 2013 09:42
Quote: "Yeah I'm with you Indicium. There are some things that are a gray area in life - World War friggin 2 is not among them."


In your opinion yes, but we all have different opinions on this - kind of.

Quote: "The American Revolution is taught in great detail here, but I've heard from others in Britain that it's only briefly mentioned in history class."


Obviously - It's only briefly mentioned here aswell, just as french revolution aso - but swedish history... now that's what 70% of my history lessions were of... and it's not enjoyable >_<



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th May 2013 10:34
Yah, we mostly focused around our own history, though we did a module on the Vietnam war for GCSE History. Didn't do any Swedish history though, however I think my friend studied it at university :p. There's a lot of ground to cover, so your own country's history takes priority, except maybe the US, who's just an infant (I kid, I kid).

Yes I know the UK is involved in some US history, and we learn some of it, but not to the same detail as the US.

Quik
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Posted: 11th May 2013 12:33 Edited at: 11th May 2013 12:34
US is UKs(among others...) children, you should be nicer to your children, seppuku


I know most of my vietnamese history from a research project like.. 5-6 years ago - other than that, we never covered it - and that project was self chosen, AKA we all got to pick something to research on..

WW2 though, 4 years ago - and we covered it quite in depth^^ dont remember everything though, but i'm very intruiged of it even to this date



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Ortu
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Posted: 11th May 2013 19:27
here in the US, highschool history curiculum can vary considerably even from state to state. Texas for instance devotes a good deal of time to our state history and to mexico, though little is pesented regarding say modern canada which i would guess is backwards for the northern states. Oklahoma puts much more focus on native americans and the internal US than on the borders, even though thy are the next state north, its a different enough region to have different concerns.

we get a year of world history which, among other things, covers europe prior to the american revolution in considerable detail. the following year is american history, which is essentially modern history from the american perspective and its during this year that we spend a couple of weeks covering each of the world wars. our literature courses also shoulder a good portion of teaching history though here it is from a more personal and humanizing perspective. when studying the works of historys great authors and poets, you get a better sense of their time and place, their society and their socities beliefs than simply getting names and dates and facts from a history text.

more on topic as to changing/hiding history, i think we do a pretty good job of addressing and facing our darker side with the intent to learn from our mistakes. slavery, segregation, and civil rights are covered in detail. internment camps, native americans, communism, even more modern issues such as the environment, and the funding of conflict are addressed, with varying degrees of detail granted, but nothing major seems to be glossed over. there is simply too much history in the world to cover everything so its natural that any region is going to focus primarily on wht it has gone through most directly.

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Posted: 11th May 2013 20:38
Quote: "US is UKs(among others...) children, you should be nicer to your children, seppuku"


I'm so sorry, I'm a bad parent.

Benjamin
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Posted: 11th May 2013 20:48 Edited at: 11th May 2013 20:49
I think one of the bizarre things is that many Germans still feel guilty about what happened during WWII, even when they weren't old enough (or not even born) around the time that it all happened. Why? Modern Germany is a very civilized place, and as far as I know human rights are above or equal to most other countries in Europe (and above what some of the 'allied' countries now have, ironically).

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 11th May 2013 21:27
I think that's one of the things about national identity, you kind of take it on as a persona. Like people tend to say "we" beat the Nazis, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't there. But people feel their nationality is very much a part of them and they take on various traits and responsibility.

Same applies to football


CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 12th May 2013 02:54
Love that skit.

Quote: "Sorry - Am I completely missing something here? No better than genocide?"


In terms of military tactics, all sides seemed fine with bombing civilians if it got the job done.

Looking at images of post-WWII Berlin, I daresay the Allies ravaged it pretty hard.
Wolf
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Posted: 12th May 2013 03:26
Quote: "so just wondering: what is written of it in your local textbooks? I mean, some people even say that some textbooks say that Germany won. Just drop few lines.
"


What textbooks teach that germany won and where are these used... and who told you that?

Also define "textbook". You mean in school?

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Diggsey
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Posted: 12th May 2013 04:10
As I understand it, by the time the US joined the war it had already turned in favour of the allies - that's not to say they didn't save many lives by shortening it significantly. However, it's not unlikely that the delay to join was in part motivated by the large profits of selling oil to germany at huge premiums (it's always oil). At the start of the war it had just suffered the great depression, by the end it was one of the richest countries in the world. Perhaps that's not a great crime in a war caused by politics/economics, but one would hope that they joined no later than when it became apparent that the nazis were committing mass murder.

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Posted: 12th May 2013 04:19
Quote: "US is UKs(among others...) children, you should be nicer to your children, seppuku "

None of my family is from the UK

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Quik
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Posted: 12th May 2013 09:28
Quote: "None of my family is from the UK"


Dear, that was a joke



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th May 2013 10:04
Quote: "None of my family is from the UK"


Prolly why he said 'among others' We're like some sort of weird family.

mr Handy
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Posted: 12th May 2013 11:30
Wow, so much feedback!

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Posted: 12th May 2013 14:30 Edited at: 12th May 2013 14:39
I'd actually argue that it was the Russians who saved us during WWII (As the Russian army annihilated 80% of the German armed forces). Although it was Hitler's hubris that caused him to over stretch himself, attacking Russia cost him the war.

Quote: "WWII was all about revenge. Germany wanted revenge on the world for the Treaty of Versailles. Russia wanted revenge for the devastation of Stalingrad. America for Pearl Harbour. Britain for the Blitz."


The London Blitz happened after Britain had declared war on Germany.

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Posted: 12th May 2013 14:32
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Posted: 12th May 2013 19:16
Quote: "I'd actually argue that it was the Russians who saved us during WWII"


I'd agree, while our contributions in europe were certainly important, we were still one force among many. I'd say our most significant impact was on the pacific front

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Posted: 12th May 2013 21:05
Well in russia its the spring holiday season may 9th being the biggest one, which celebrates the end of ww2. All i can say is that to this day ww2 is surrounded in controversy and in recent years i noticed that there were efforts to shift the blame on Soviet union for starting the war. Ive read both american and russian texbooks the main difference betwen is the level of detail describing that time period. Also might depend on what your teachers will tell you.

As for American role in the war most people give the US less credit than what they deserve. Sure russia concentraited all their forces in the west but if it wasnt for american activity in the pacific, Russians would have been dealt a heavy blow by the japanese empire if the americans didnt interviene.

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Posted: 12th May 2013 23:03
Quote: "Dear, that was a joke"

Dear? I better be either my wife or the woman serving me at waffle house!

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mr Handy
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Posted: 12th May 2013 23:06
Wait, dear is an animal with horns, right?

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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 12th May 2013 23:15
That's a deer

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Posted: 13th May 2013 01:23
Quote: "As for American role in the war most people give the US less credit than what they deserve. Sure russia concentraited all their forces in the west but if it wasnt for american activity in the pacific, Russians would have been dealt a heavy blow by the japanese empire if the americans didnt interviene."


What about the Aussies? They did some good fighting in the Pacific and all around the world and were considered to be some tough soldiers

Seems everyone forgets about Australia haha

mr Handy
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Posted: 13th May 2013 01:33
Quote: "Seems everyone forgets about Australia"

Japanese were bombing north of Australia, not much. That's all I know.

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Posted: 13th May 2013 02:15
Australia...
...
...
Never heard of.




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Posted: 13th May 2013 03:29
Australia has been in a war?

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Posted: 13th May 2013 03:36
I have a small anthology called "Gems of English Poetry" that was printed in Germany in 1926 -- all but the poems themselves are in German and there are translations in the back -- given to my step-grandfather by someone he met during the war (I think he was in the Netherlands). I think it is a beautiful but also tragic object, a symbol of the unity of man beyond borders and the sharing of culture beneath the shroud of war.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.

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