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Geek Culture / Petition Against HTML5 DRM

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Libervurto
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Posted: 14th Jul 2013 22:41 Edited at: 14th Jul 2013 22:42
Quote: "The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) is considering a proposal to weave Digital Restrictions Management (DRM) into HTML5 — in other words, into the very fabric of the Web. Millions of Internet users came together to defeat SOPA/PIPA, but now Big Media moguls are going through non-governmental channels to try to sneak digital restrictions into every interaction we have online. Giants like Netflix, Google, Microsoft, and the BBC are all rallying behind this disastrous proposal, which flies in the face of the W3C's mission to "lead the World Wide Web to its full potential.""

click here to go to the petition page
Daniel TGC
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Posted: 14th Jul 2013 23:48
Sorry won't be signing this. It's the right of content creators to protect their work. If I get access to some kind of HTML5 DRM framework I can implement on my paid Video tutorial courses, then I'll welcome it with open arms. I could stream my content online, maintain cross compatibility with separate devices and I wouldn't need to burn expensive short run DVD's. For DRM benefits both large and small scale content creators.
Ortu
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 01:24
I agree with daniel, while I am all for open source and gnu licensing, I firmly believe it is a content creators sole right to decide how their content will be released and under what terms.

Shazam!
bitJericho
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 01:28 Edited at: 15th Jul 2013 01:35
How on earth would drm in html5 stop piracy? It'd be defeated within days of introduction. Just like I can take your DVDs and torrent them as soon as they arrive in the mail. (I wouldn't, because I have some self-respect.)

What it will do is allow companies like netflix and google to keep content creators thinking that they have legitimate protections and (legitimate) users thus will be locked into netflix, youtube, and windows. Of course windows is rallying behind it, it'll be the only OS that can allow users to view youtube and netflix natively!

Quote: "I agree with daniel, while I am all for open source and gnu licensing, I firmly believe it is a content creators sole right to decide how their content will be released and under what terms.
"


Uh, no you're not. The goal of gnu license is antithetical to drm. If you are a content creator and want to protect your work, don't release it publicly.

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
Daniel TGC
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 01:51
I used DVD's because at the time it was the only option, DRM protection under flash was very expensive to implement and the ongoing cost would have been 5 times over anything I would have made. My DVD's did end up on torrent sites as well. No amount of "he's rich so he can afford it" arguments here applies, because I'm not rich and the profits made wasn't remotely close to any kind of minimum working wage. Torretns and piracy is indiscriminate and damages small scale operators far more than large scale operators.

Quote: "don't release it publicly."


The point of creating content is to allow the public to use it. HTML5 DRM opens up lower cost solutions that will potentially allow me to distribute the content at half the price of DVD's and full HD resolution. I have every right to state the terms of my content usage, I put the time and effort into making it. No one else has any rights over my own work, if you don't want to accept my terms then no one is forcing you to purchase the content in the first place.

There's simply no way I can put unprotected commercial MP4 files online, they'd be stollen within 24 hours, and frankly I'd get better protection throwing it up on youtube with adverts. Given that generates just under £40 a month at present, it doesn't make it worth my while generating a 12 - 15 hour programming course.
bitJericho
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 02:05 Edited at: 15th Jul 2013 02:09
Quote: "There's simply no way I can put unprotected commercial MP4 files online, they'd be stollen within 24 hours, and frankly I'd get better protection throwing it up on youtube with adverts. Given that generates just under £40 a month at present, it doesn't make it worth my while generating a 12 - 15 hour programming course. "


If you're not able to make a living off of it you're doing something wrong. DRM ain't it. People can already pirate netflix videos (http://torrentfreak.com/arrested-development-pirates-skip-netflix-out-of-habit-130529/)

How is DRM in HTML5 going to help? (Netflix is already DRM protected).

If you want to make some cash and start to limit piracy, find out why pirates are pirating your videos in the first place. It isn't because they can (netflix is proof that pirates don't pirate just because they can, netflix is still in business, afterall). Is it because they're students and have no cash? Is it because you charge too much? Is it because your shipped format is not good enough? Is it lack of advertising? Is it too niche?

Once you figure out the real reason you're not making money you can either refocus on a product that makes money or you can just fix the error in your current product.

Perhaps all you need to do is offer a free exclusive, like an exclusive support forum, or an hour-long one on one chat, I dunno, be creative.

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
xplosys
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 02:13
Totally against the government doing this, but all for the content creators doing it. If it turns out a waste of time or they do more harm than good, then so be it, but the power is in the right hands.

I am the underground.
Daniel TGC
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 02:16
That's a very idealistic approach bitJericho that doesnt' work in the real world. People have many reasons for pirating a video, from the fact that they are improverished, to the fact that they don't see why they should pay for anything at all when they can just get it for free.

At present Netflix uses silverlight not HTML5, and Netflix is a big brand attracting lots of attention from lever hackers who can strip DRM.

My courses won't get the same kind of attention, this makes limiting the casual pirate far more effective.

Quote: " If you're not able to make a living off of it you're doing something wrong. DRM ain't it."


I'm dealing with a niche community with a limited number of AGK/ DBPro installs. Every community member who wants my tutorials counts. I know what kind of market I'm selling too after all I've released a DVD tutorial series, and an eBook. I know the sales figures. I'm here to tell you, every sale matters. If I don't get enough royalties from these things it's the difference between paying my rent and not.

Don't confuse the netflix of the world with independent developers.
bitJericho
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 02:22
To be clear, I'm totally not against netflix doing this (on behalf of their content creators). I'm a netflix subscriber myself! Content creators should have the right to implement their own DRM. Don't be surprised when you find it doesn't actually help though.

HTML5 supporting DRM will be disastrous though, because that won't help the content creator. It will only help the content distributors, and not in terms of sales and piracy, but in terms of locking in creators under false pretenses to the distributors with the keys.

Look at Steam. Great platform for buyers and sellers right? It's starting to become impossible for DRM free games to be sold outside of steam and get the eyes needed to succeed. Guess who gets a cut of every sale made on steam?

If steam didn't exist, all it would take to make a sale is some word of mouth or advertising. Now, to make a sale, all it takes is some word of mouth or advertising, and a spot on steam because gamers don't like buying games that they can't install from steam.

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
Libervurto
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 02:23 Edited at: 15th Jul 2013 02:40
Quote: "No amount of "he's rich so he can afford it" arguments here applies, because I'm not rich and the profits made wasn't remotely close to any kind of minimum working wage."

This is why I really struggle with this topic.
I totally support the GNU project and it's clearly absurd to copyright algorithms, imagine if Leibniz had patented calculus and prevented Newton from making his own version; the software algorithms of today are no different. So software has to be free, but then how do programmers, and those who use their software professionally, earn a living?

I would certainly support the government paying programmers to develop free software. I think Venezuela are doing that, maybe Brazil too.

Quote: "I have every right to state the terms of my content usage, I put the time and effort into making it."

I don't agree with that. You deserve to be rewarded for your effort but I don't see why you should have continued control over your project once you've published it. The only right I believe you should have in that respect is that if people modify your work they release it under their own name and not yours.

The answer to this problem has to be getting away from the idea of selling copies of software like they are physical items. It's unfair on developers that suffer heavy losses due to "piracy", and it's unfair to consumers who are heavily restricted by the software they use.

Look at Daniel's story. It's ridiculous that he had to distribute his tutorials on DVD to try and get around "piracy". There must be a way to solve this problem for both sides.
bitJericho
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 02:27
Quote: "I'm dealing with a niche community with a limited number of AGK/ DBPro installs. Every community member who wants my tutorials counts. I know what kind of market I'm selling too after all I've released a DVD tutorial series, and an eBook. I know the sales figures. I'm here to tell you, every sale matters. If I don't get enough royalties from these things it's the difference between paying my rent and not.

Don't confuse the netflix of the world with independent developers. "


I know your plight. I don't have all the answers for sure. I wish I could help you. I don't believe that DRM in HTML5 will be your saving grace. I believe it very well could hurt you and TGC and all creators.

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
Daniel TGC
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 03:00
Quote: "HTML5 supporting DRM will be disastrous though, because that won't help the content creator. It will only help the content distributors"


I am both distributor and creator.

Also I sell ebooks through 3rd party retailers such as Amazon, iBooks, etc. I've used on demand DVD publishers and even had a short stint with a distributor. As the content creator, I'm here to tell you that I get paid per copy sold. There's no flat fees for me. I don't know what it's like higher up the chain, but for independent developers trying to get their content out there, every single sale makes a difference. If just ten people watch a bittorrent instead of paying me, I'm out of pocket by £50. That might not sound like a lot to you. But it makes a big difference to my personal finances.

This is what's effectively being put into HTML5
Quote: "The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), the group that orchestrates the development of Web standards, has today published a Working Draft for Encrypted Media Extensions (EME), a framework that will allow the delivery of DRM-protected media through the browser without the use of plugins such as Flash or Silverlight.

EME does not specify any DRM scheme per se. Rather, it defines a set of APIs that allow JavaScript and HTML to interact with decryption/protection modules. These modules will tend to be platform-specific in one way or another and will contain the core DRM technology."


The advantage of HTML5 is that all the new browsers support it to a greater or lesser degree. That's set only to improve over the years. Mobile devices are starting to support it properly and it's cross platform. I won't have to demand that extra flash or silverlight is installed. I can learn Javascript, setup a server and implement it myself. It'll take some research to write the modules required, but as long as I make them compatible with the HTML5 API it's certainly not an impossible task.

One of the things I've always wanted to do is dedicate myself to big complex tutorials, the kind that'll require months of coding, documentation and video presentation. I'd like to develop frameworks for several major game types, from RPG's, to simple board and arcade games. I'd like to document them, update them, produce videos on them. And offer a subscription model where a user can sign up for a few quid a month and access all the information there. Grab the game framework, understand it, and produce their games even faster. I'd even like to write the help files myself with detailed examples. But to do this sort of thing I need money to live on. DVD's sales don't cut it. They are expensive to produce. eBooks are better, but my preferred medium has always been video and live demonstrations wherever possible. I'm currently looking into iBook author as a possible medium, but the price would have to be quite high to justify it, and updating wouldn't be so easy on the scale I imagine.

If this opens a door where I can produce this content, protect it and offer a site that prevents casual pirates from stripping my stuff and uploading it to other sites or p2p networks then I'm all for it. It would allow me to do what I want to do with www.teachyourselfstuff.com
bitJericho
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 03:15 Edited at: 15th Jul 2013 03:18
The DRM scheme will still require a plugin... don't you see that? Instead of being in the browser, it'll be in the OS. The plugin will be a "super sweet netflix app with associated toolbar for your convenience (TM)" that requires the $5.99 (royalty) DRM-remover firmware on a brand new video card exclusively sold by Nvidia with drivers written only for Windows which requires a motherboard with UEFI.

Don't you see where this is headed?

DRM is not about protecting content. It's about protecting big money, big corporations, monopolies.

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
Daniel TGC
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 03:48
No it doesn't require a plugin, as far as I understand it, it requires a module on the server.

I have no problems with big money protecting itself. It doesn't matter if you steal from a poor guy or a rich guy, it still stealing. I've never agreed with piracy. The religonal restriction nonsense annoys me as much as the next guy. But as a content creator myself, and having gotten a peak recently into the kind of deals and legal stuff that goes on in the background and I can see why it happens. In reality big money is just like FOSS. You have a lot of guys pulling in different directions, working at cross purposes, trying to achieve what they can. The result is a very human mess.
Ortu
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 03:52
Quote: "Uh, no you're not. The goal of gnu license is antithetical to drm. If you are a content creator and want to protect your work, don't release it publicly."


I myself prefer gnu and advocate it when asked my opinion, however that is my personal choice, I nor anyone else has the right to make or push hat choice on someone else.

Shazam!
bitJericho
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 04:21 Edited at: 15th Jul 2013 04:23
I apologize if I sounded rude. I guess I would agree with you on your points. I was under the impression that you meant GNU software and DRM should work together. I would not agree with that premise, but looking back you never said that, so sorry.

Daniel, my point is that DRM doesn't protect big businesses content, it protects their business models. It'd be like TGC lobbying windows to require signing all executables. Once done, microsoft signs TGC's exes for free, but charges all other compiler makers...

oh wait, that's already being done:

http://developer.apple.com/library/ios/#documentation/general/conceptual/devpedia-cocoacore/AppSigning.html

Ever wonder why Linux repositories only recommend self-signing, but Apple requires third party signing? Why does it work for Linux and not for Apple? Hint: it's not because Apple is trying to protect their users.

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
ionstream
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 04:42
I'm with Daniel on this. Content creators and idea makers do need a way to protect their stuff, and if this helps even a little bit then I'm all for it. Sure DRM can be gotten around, just like locks can be broken and doors can be smashed in, but we still have to put up some opposition.

Plus, once there is a way to protect content then perhaps more sites will stop using Flash or Silverlight based media players and use HTML5, making things a little more open and accessible.

bitJericho
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 05:15 Edited at: 15th Jul 2013 05:16
Quote: "Plus, once there is a way to protect content then perhaps more sites will stop using Flash or Silverlight based media players and use HTML5, making things a little more open and accessible."


The requirement for flash or silverlight will be replaced with something that runs at the OS layer, which is much worse for stability/security.

It also will not drive forward DRM technology, it is a sideways step. It's no more secure than a browser plugin.

What it will serve to do is demote flash and promote software or hardware to do the decoding, which will mean that content creators (or their customers) have to pay a license.

Here's an example.

Modern day content creator: As a creator, you can buy silverlight development package whatever that is, and that's your "license fee" for developing a DRM application. Good job, you locked out some linux users but they probably use windows anyway and will put up with whatever.

Future content creator: As a creator, you buy silverlight, you buy the latest ATI 209945xl PRO that includes Silverlight DRM-EXISCER chip with HDCP for high def content, you paid an extra few bucks for that but hey it doesn't show up on your receipt. You sell your product.

Future and current pirate: You take your pre-made tools, and transcode the video.

Future pirate: PS, you bought the ATI card so you could transcode the video, good job ATI you still made your sale!

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
Libervurto
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 08:06
Can I ask for some clarification from those in favour of DRM: Do you wish to restrict the use, modification and redistribution of your software/media indefinitely? Is the purpose of this control fundamentally to protect your ideas, or is it purely to ensure that you are paid for your work?
Dar13
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 08:10
Quote: "some opposition."

Punishing your paying customers because somebody somewhere might strip your game/video/music/etc is just damaging your perception among those customers. DRM doesn't affect pirates at all once it's broken, it only affects those who actually bought the content and play by the rules.

There's a reason Ubisoft stopped including it's always-on DRM for single-player games, it pissed off its loyal fanbase by assuming that they were all pirates!

Quote: "No it doesn't require a plugin, as far as I understand it, it requires a module on the server."

It's actually in the browser. It'll be a nice little binary blob plopped in with little to none oversight into how it'll be implemented. I'll honestly be surprised if a project like Firefox allows this to be put into their browser if this becomes part of the standard.

Quote: "Look at Steam. Great platform for buyers and sellers right? It's starting to become impossible for DRM free games to be sold outside of steam and get the eyes needed to succeed. Guess who gets a cut of every sale made on steam?"

Humble Bundle? GOG? Steam games can be and are DRM free(Witcher & Witcher 2 are two examples off the top of my head).


In any case I suppose my final point is that DRM has a habit of assuming that the paying customer is a crook that wants to crack the media. Thus the DRM punishes that customer by making them jump through hoops in order to consume said media, meanwhile the pirates bypass all that hoop-jumping! Gabe Newell is famous for saying that piracy is a service problem not a price problem or a security problem or any of that stuff. If you can make your process of getting the content to the customer just as or more convenient than going to TPB/KAT and finding a clean torrent, you will make more sales.

TLR;
Don't treat your paying customers like pirates when they aren't.

WTLD has been put on indefinite hold.
A new project is under initial development now.
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 09:07
Remember back in 1995 when everything was free online ? ahhh...those were the days...

Daniel TGC
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 10:54 Edited at: 15th Jul 2013 11:12
Quote: "Can I ask for some clarification from those in favour of DRM: Do you wish to restrict the use, modification and redistribution of your software/media indefinitely? Is the purpose of this control fundamentally to protect your ideas, or is it purely to ensure that you are paid for your work?"


If I want to protect my idea's then the only way of doing that is to patient or copyright them and start suing anyone who tries to do something similar.

I'm in the education field essentially, if someone who uses my product walks away empowered to produce software then I'm happy.

Getting paid is my priority after all I am teaching a set of marketable skills that'll allow members of this community to go out and create content of their own. I think that's worth paying me for. After all it's not like I'm producing a TV show who's sole purpose is to entertain. I'm trying to provide easy ways for struggling users to level up their skill set.

Quote: "Remember back in 1995 when everything was free online ? ahhh...those were the days..."


Ahh the days before p2p networks ruined everything for the content creator. The days of badly written websites running over 56.6k modems, in browsers that took 5 minutes to download a single image. The days when web creators could charge huge sums of money for a 12k text file.

it's called progress. Embrace it.

Quote: "Don't treat your paying customers like pirates when they aren't."


Good, then won't mind legally logging into my website, chucking over the cash and watching my videos. After all, if they don't like what they see, they can always request a refund. It's not like I'm going to be unfair with them.

Quote: "Humble Bundle? GOG? Steam games can be and are DRM free"


GOG is mostly older generation games. For every legal GOG site you've got at least a dozen abandonware websites pushing the limits of what they can get away with, and p2p networks hosting them outright. Not to mention newsgroups.

Quote: "In any case I suppose my final point is that DRM has a habit of assuming that the paying customer is a crook that wants to crack the media."


DRM doesn't prevent users from viewing content. It's trying to prevent users from watching off the sellers own network. What's so unfair about that?
Dar13
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 17:29
Quote: "DRM doesn't prevent users from viewing content. It's trying to prevent users from watching off the sellers own network. What's so unfair about that?"

It's only unfair when the DRM takes away features from the media in order to give control to the media creator when the customer fairly paid for it. It's especially bad when the customer knows that the features have been taken away.

Quote: "GOG is mostly older generation games. For every legal GOG site you've got at least a dozen abandonware websites pushing the limits of what they can get away with, and p2p networks hosting them outright. Not to mention newsgroups."

I was specifically referring to GOG.com but what's wrong with P2P networks? Saves the website money and if it's a private tracker then it's not like someone can use the torrent illegally.

Quote: "Good, then won't mind legally logging into my website, chucking over the cash and watching my videos."

Are these on TGC? Or some other site?

WTLD has been put on indefinite hold.
A new project is under initial development now.
Kevin Picone
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Posted: 15th Jul 2013 19:37
Quote: "it's called progress. Embrace it."


Wake me when it's gets good.

mr Handy
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Posted: 16th Jul 2013 09:05
I will never sign such petition. A person who has internet, stole anything at least once. No exceptions. And now these people want more?

«Just because you’re unique, doesn’t mean you’re useful»
«If you contributed to the reason for locking, you may now find yourself on moderation, or in extreme cases in the grave»
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 19th Jul 2013 13:19 Edited at: 19th Jul 2013 13:22
I have signed the petition.

I don't want DRM to be standard. If you, as a content creator, want to implement protection, do it on your own or use some library to do it. Don't make the code I run to view the web have DRM crap standard.

Edit: Also, to the content creators out there, if you use DRM please note that you are doing so somewhere on your page. I would hope you have enough respect for us tree-huggers to do so.

Web - Tweets
“I'm going to punch DXGI in the face. Repeatedly.” ~Aras Pranckevicius
Daniel TGC
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Posted: 20th Jul 2013 13:27 Edited at: 20th Jul 2013 13:32
Err, I don't think you can call yourself a tree hugger lol. "Slips into comic hippy voice"

ya like supporting the industrial world web dude, burning mother natures natural resources just so you can burn a few pixels on your high tech industrial corporate world display man. Like, turn off ya tree burner and go apologise to that white ash outside your door.

Anyway all amusement aside, I still state that content providers create the content. We have every right to define how, where and when that content is accessed if at all. As customers you can make suggestions, and requests, but as the creator I have to determine what will or will not promote or harm my business.

I would also point out that by making it a standard, it makes it easier for smaller developers such as myself to consider implementing it. In addition to this because it IS standardised or will be. This means it will become part of the HTML5 specification that all web browsers, operating systems, etc will eventually support. If I go out and make my own who the heck is going to want to install my plugin. At the end of the day there's so many dodgy websites out there that most users work bork at the idea of installing something from an unknown developer.

I think you're over simplifying it. Because if nothing else once DRM has been added to HTML5 all arguments for keeping slow flash and property sliverlight sites around vanish.
The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 21st Jul 2013 20:30 Edited at: 21st Jul 2013 21:10
Quote: "Anyway all amusement aside, I still state that content providers create the content. We have every right to define how, where and when that content is accessed if at all. As customers you can make suggestions, and requests, but as the creator I have to determine what will or will not promote or harm my business."

That attitude is what led to this situation in the first place. Publishers (and a handful of ignorant content creators) seem to forget that without consumers, your content is worthless. Alienating your loyal fans by drenching content with DRM is a very, very poor decision.

People seem to see piracy as bad thing - the reality is not nearly as black and white. Did you know, the average pirate spends more on media than a non-pirate? How about the pirate who's never bought an album, but regularly attends and supports bands at gigs? Or the pirate that introduces their friends to a band, who then go on to buy several albums and spread the word to further friends?

Why is content pirated? Because publishers and content-producers are getting lazy, that's why. If your content offers nothing over every other bit of similar content on the market, why would anyone pay for it? Why would I pay for something saturated in DRM, when I can view equal or better content for free on Vimeo, or Bandcamp etc.?

Daniel TGC
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Posted: 21st Jul 2013 22:28
Quote: "That attitude is what led to this situation in the first place. Publishers (and a handful of ignorant content creators) seem to forget that without consumers, your content is worthless. Alienating your loyal fans by drenching content with DRM is a very, very poor decision."


I came up with a big post, which I'm going to condense into the following.

It's my time, it's my product, it's my intellectual property. I have every right to sabotage myself (youre thinking) protect myself (my thinking) with protective DRM if I want too. Who here has the right to say I shouldn't be allowed to use DRM in HTML5, it's an open standard. That doesn't mean it's just open for consumers, it means it's open for content providers and creators as well. You are more than welcome to go away and make all the DRM Free products you like, you can host them on your website, you can say how nice you are that you trust your customers will do the right thing. By the same token I have the right to lock down my content so closely that only 1 user in the world even has the facility to use it, and that's ME, lol.

This is about rights at the end of the day. You have the right to buy or not buy my products. I have the right to state what terms that product is used. Perhaps I only want you to use it once when the blue moon is high and you've killed a dozen goats while waring a queen victoria fancy dress costume. I would be absolutely retarded to do so, but I'm only harming myself. You're more than welcome to find someone who doesn't require you to do these things.

P.S. I'm now going to put into my license agreement that everyone who uses my products has to wear a hat with the words "Daniel is always right." printed on it.

Ok not really. Then I'd have to buy you all hats.
Indicium
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Posted: 21st Jul 2013 22:38
What's the problem with DRM? The only reason I can think that someone would have a problem with it is if they haven't paid for the product.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 21st Jul 2013 23:45
Quote: "I have the right to state what terms that product is used. Perhaps I only want you to use it once when the blue moon is high and you've killed a dozen goats while wearing a queen Victoria fancy dress costume. I would be absolutely retarded to do so, but I'm only harming myself. You're more than welcome to find someone who doesn't require you to do these things."

You're "only harming yourself" economically (how the bloody hell am I supposed to format this sentence properly?) but you are limiting the freedoms of your customers.

Pfff... I'm a bit pooped out of this conversation for today (on two threads!)... I suppose I better get that fancy dress costume on.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 21st Jul 2013 23:49
If you pay to see some content, why shouldn't you be allowed to download it and run it freely with the software you use? For example, with VLC or another media player? DRM makes it so you are restricted to the platforms that are explicitly supported by the content creator. This makes it harder for the content creator because then they have to go through the trouble of supporting more platforms instead of just letting the user have the file. Being cynical and thinking that the user is going to pirate it is stupid. "Don't sell to pirates; sell to consumers." If it's worth cracking someone somewhere will do it anyway. Making it harder for them also makes it harder for the consumer.

Allowing DRM to be standard allows a couple of things.
(1) a terrible practice that many despise now has to be codified in browsers to make them "standard." And who's to say the user won't be able to disable this piece of code, especially in proprietary browsers? (I doubt very much IE would offer the ability to disable all pages with DRM.)
(2) content creators who should only be in charge of producing the content, not how it's consumed, will suddenly say "it must be consumed this way, oh and by the way it's a suppository."
(3) for me to waste time tracking down whatever code enables it in a new update and submitting a patch to the projects of the browsers I use that allows it to be disabled by a user configuration. It would of course be easier on me if it weren't there to begin with.
(4) a lot of wasted clock cycles will be spent on all the DRM crap; that means a lot of time wasted for all of you.

Digital Restrictions Management does not help anyone. For the content creator, it reinforces their unjustified insecurities and cynical view of the world. For the consumers, who will collectively experience this more than the short-sighted content creators, they will be disallowed from viewing the content they payed for based only on the premise that it's not on a supported platform. And for what reason other than to "protect" the content. That's like coating food with a layer of plastic so the user doesn't sully it. Or perhaps a better metaphor: that's like telling the user they can eat the food, but only if done inside the store/restaurant or an "approved" restaurant.

So if I "activate my food" at my home, and decide to go on a trip elsewhere, and the food bites back telling me I can't eat it because it's not in a supported location, you know what I'm going to do? Get a refund, and never shop at that store again. That doesn't help anybody in the equation. It wastes time for the content creator (to deal with the refund, possibly at a monetary cost to them), as well as the consumer the content creator is supposedly trying to help.

This post isn't complete but I need to end it here for now. I wanted to take the time to address individual concerns but I'm running short on that at the moment.

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Daniel TGC
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 00:09
lol, I'm sure you make a fantastic queen Victoria.

Quote: "If you pay to see some content, why shouldn't you be allowed to download it and run it freely with the software you use?"


That's the point I made with iTunes. Having said that the reason you shouldn't be allowed to download it and use it freely with the software you use is because that software includes bittorent, limewire, and any website that hosts files. That's all software too.

But yes that is being pedantic. The reason you can't use it with any software video player you like is because it lacks the proper DRM support. If it's done in HTML5 and the API is HTML5's own. Then this limitation vanishes. The real question the becomes "Why didn't this idiot use the standard HTML5 API?"
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 00:52
Quote: "Then this limitation vanishes."

I disagree. I still can't watch it in VLC or another video player that way. It creates another barrier. Maybe I want to watch the video on my webOS-based phone which lacks support for its version of DRM. I still can't view it there even if everything else about the codec is supported.

Quote: "that software includes bittorent, limewire, and any website that hosts files"

That is the problem with virtual goods compared to physical goods. But, content creators earn more respect (at least from me and those with similar views) when they don't restrict the people consuming the content.

The web is supposed to be open with no restrictions. Enforcing a restriction technology as a standard of this supposed-to-be-open platform is not consistent with that. (Giving a choice of restriction is the same as allowing more restriction to take place.)

Granted I can see the counterargument "isn't arguing against it the same as supporting restrictions on the content creator?" To which I would say no. They have plenty of options for DRM already through Flash and Silverlight. I'd prefer for it to stay there on principle.

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“I'm going to punch DXGI in the face. Repeatedly.” ~Aras Pranckevicius
the_winch
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 00:55
Quote: "That's the point I made with iTunes. Having said that the reason you shouldn't be allowed to download it and use it freely with the software you use is because that software includes bittorent, limewire, and any website that hosts files. That's all software too.

But yes that is being pedantic. The reason you can't use it with any software video player you like is because it lacks the proper DRM support. If it's done in HTML5 and the API is HTML5's own. Then this limitation vanishes. The real question the becomes "Why didn't this idiot use the standard HTML5 API?""


You are contradicting yourself.

So the first paragraph argues you need to control what software can access the media and key required to decrypt it. I think that is easy for everyone to agree with.

However the second paragraph argues there is going to be some HTML5 DRM api anybody can implement. What's to stop this software you have no control over stripping the DRM?

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
Daniel TGC
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 01:38 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2013 01:45
Quote: "But, content creators earn more respect (at least from me and those with similar views) when they don't restrict the people consuming the content."


That's great. But what if you're respect costs me 100 or 1000 sales? What if it costs me a single sale? Gaining your respect doesn't gain me anything. Sure I might have a single loyal customer. But no business can run with a single loyal customer. I'm sorry but I don't think sensible usage of DRM would kill a business quite as fast as piracy might.

There's also another factor here you're not considering. My feelings in the matter. To a pirate it's a bit of stuff sitting on their hard drive, it's not personal they just wanted this thingimebob and saw no harm in grabbing it off piratebay or whatever.

To me it's infuriating. That bit of code sitting on their drive was physical days and weeks of my life. I could have done anything in that time, watched some TV, played some music. I didn't have to stress over paragraphs, format lesson plans, listen to feedback, respond to customer e-mails, etc etc. I could have just sat on my haunches and done nothing.

By stealing my work he's devalued my efforts, and the hours of my life that went onto it.

Apart from anything else slapping some sensible DRM onto my content, while I know it won't eliminate piracy all together at least serves to make me feel better. And if someone really really needs to use my product on some device I never thought of, then there is nothing stopping them from coming forward and asking me for a DRM free or device specific version. They don't have to goto the piracy sites to do it or attack the DRM, they could just ask. That won't work with big companies of course, but I'm not a big company.

But at the end of the day, none of my sold products have ever used DRM, and at the end of the day they have been pirated. That doesn't make me feel good. If that hadn't happend I wouldn't be looking into ways of protecting it.

The final issue with piracy as far as I'm concerned is that I have absolutely no way of verifying how bad it is. I can't goto piratebay and all the other illicit sites and tally up how many downloads there have been. For all I know those product isn't making much money because it's available for free, there could be dozens, tens of dozens, hundreds, thousands, downloading my products and I might never know about it.

That's not a good feeling. Were's the respect I'm due eh? Sure I get it from everyone who's legitimately bought a copy of my products. I am very greatful to them all, and I will do my best to respect them as much as they have respected me. But that respect has not been universal. And if it's not been universal to me, should it be universal back? I don't think a bit of DRM will hurt my legitimate customers, and if it does. They can come talk to me about it.
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 02:29 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2013 02:35
Quote: "There's also another factor here you're not considering. My feelings in the matter."

This had not escaped me.

Quote: "But what if you're respect costs me 100 or 1000 sales? What if it costs me a single sale?"

What if your lessons just helped a thousand kids that will then forever be grateful for your work but would have never had the chance to have been able to pay for it? What if there are people that legitimately can't afford the lessons that are pirating only because they have no other way to get it? Sure, that might not be the case, but what if it is?

I assert that you have not lost anything (significant) through piracy. Just like record companies don't lose billions through people downloading music. What happens is more outreach is made and the music is then made available to people who otherwise wouldn't have taken the time to listen to it. The people who pirate things exclusively do so because they just want everything gratis and wouldn't have bought access to your content anyway. The people who pirate things non-exclusively might buy your content or donate just to support you because they liked the content.

Piracy does not devalue work unless your work is only made for money, and not because you feel it ought to be done. The blood, sweat, and sleep that you (and I) lose over our work only goes into it. It's not lost by a pirate slaving us.

Quote: "And if someone really really needs to use my product on some device I never thought of, then there is nothing stopping them from coming forward and asking me for a DRM free or device specific version."

Possibly prior experience with big companies or a general consensus might stop them from doing so. But still, following the previous line of "what if"s, what if a pirate makes up a story you believe, grabs it, then releases the DRM-free version? Even failing that, what if a pirate cracks the DRM? All the other would-be pirates have to do then is look for it online and grab it. Then what does the DRM do? Nothing except annoy the users who have to jump through hoops to get it working on their devices.

Quote: "But no business can run with a single loyal customer. I'm sorry but I don't think sensible usage of DRM would kill a business quite as fast as piracy might."

I don't mean for this to sound so harsh, and I hope you know I'm not making this argument for the purpose of trolling or being offensive, but this is my view: then your business either needs to be expanded upon, shut down, or put on the side.

There are many small businesses that haven't suffered from piracy but still need to be set aside while the owner does other jobs to stay afloat. I know one guy who sunk six or seven years into his company and still hasn't been able to live off of it alone. He has to do contract work and at one point got another job altogether to make rent. This was by no fault of piracy. It sucks, but it happens.

Even if it were by the fault of piracy, at least more people would be using his products and therefore gathering more attention, possibly with more legitimate customers.

I know of a few small game developers (like that "McPixel" game) that uploaded their own torrents to TPB with a link to a "pay what you want" section of their site so the pirates could support the developers if they felt the game was worth it.

Edit: Fixed phrasing; improved grammar.

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Daniel TGC
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 03:14 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2013 03:17
Quote: "What if your lessons just helped a thousand kids that will then forever be grateful for your work but would have never had the chance to have been able to pay for it?"


A) How did they afford the PC to write the software on.
B) How did they purchase a copy of AppGameKit?

There might be one or two isolated cases, but if they can't afford a sub-£5 ebook I doubt they'll be paying their electric bills or buying computer equipment either.

It's funny you should say that though, I've been in discussion with a group over the last few weeks discussing new ideas. One of the idea's I presented was a kickstarter campaign aimed at kids just like that. But I can't work for free on such projects if I don't have enough cash to backup the time lost working on paying projects.

Quote: "Piracy does not devalue work unless your work is only made for money,"


Yes it does, and surely I am doing it for the money. I'm barely paying my bills as it is. Just three months ago I was seriously considering declaring bankruptcy. If it wasn't for a very recent development I'd still be considering it. As little as £10 in royalties makes a big difference at the moment.

On top of that I'm living out of a microwave cause my cooker broke. Still have no idea how I'm going to replace that. Microwave food is depressingly bad.

Quote: "But still, following the previous line of "what if"s, what if a pirate makes up a story you believe,"


I've considered that, there's watermarking, I can throw in some commented code into the XHTML and I have a few more ideas on that. I can mark the project easily, and unless they know what they are looking for they are going to have to be pretty clever to spot it. If they release it I'll know who the are.

Quote: "I assert that you have not lost anything (significant) through piracy."


I refer you to my cooker dilemma. If you think I'm rich or even well off. Think again.

Quote: "Then your business either needs to be expanded upon, shut down, or put on the side."


Expansion requires cash (and a new cooker).
If I shut down, legitimate customers REALLY lose out.
Putting to one side is just as bad.

Quote: "There are many small businesses that haven't suffered from piracy but still need to be set aside while the owner does other jobs to stay afloat."


I'm a small business (ok a sole trader) and I've suffered at the hands on piracy. How badly? No idea, there's on way I can analyse it. That's a big part of the problem. Would I be rich if piracy doesn't exist? Would I be slightly worse off. All I know is that someones stealing my junk, that don't make me happy. Might have been £4, might have been £400. I have no way of knowing. If it is £400 I could have bought two new cookers, and refilled my freezer! The cat might not be licking wallpaper paste off the walls cause his bowl is empty.

Think of the poor cute little kitty. See he's crying.

Dar13
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 04:54
@Daniel
Stretched page! Agghhh!!!!

Quote: "A) How did they afford the PC to write the software on.
B) How did they purchase a copy of AppGameKit?"

Quote: "kids"

A) Parent's PC but they(the parents) may not allow the kid to buy the content(has happened to me on more than one occasion).
B) Do you not sell DBP tutorial videos as well? DBP is free(ish)ware now so there's little to no cost of entry. Or are the DRM-protected ones AppGameKit only?

Quote: "I'm a small business (ok a sole trader) and I've suffered at the hands on piracy. How badly? No idea, there's on way I can analyse it. That's a big part of the problem. Would I be rich if piracy doesn't exist? Would I be slightly worse off. All I know is that someones stealing my junk, that don't make me happy."

If I knew where to purchase said videos, I would(I had asked you about that a few posts ago but you never replied). I just checked The Pirate Bay and there was only one torrent of AppGameKit itself and it had 3 seeders/1 leecher. That's not exactly a healthy torrent, so I very much doubt your content is being torrented.

I may be going off on a tangent but I find it frustrating when people call piracy "stealing". Taking a perfect copy of your content without removing the original, thus leaving you to create more perfect copies, is not stealing. You are only deprived of a potential sale of an easily reproducible good. That's digital piracy, not stealing.

Personally if I was looking to purchase a tutorial series of videos and they had DRM, I wouldn't buy that series. Especially playback restrictions or it uses a super special codec and such. If you're afraid of Youtube uploads, set up ContentID with Google and it'll monetize those videos' views for your benefit.

WTLD has been put on indefinite hold.
A new project is under initial development now.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 04:55
Quote: "@Daniel
Stretched page! Agghhh!!!!"
You're not using... 1366x768... Are you?!?!...
bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 05:03
What's to stop someone from pointing an HD webcam at your video and distributing that?

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
Dar13
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 05:10
Quote: "You're not using... 1366x768... Are you?!?!... "

1280x1024 on this monitor, my 1920x1080 monitor is mainly for my IDE.

WTLD has been put on indefinite hold.
A new project is under initial development now.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 05:17
Ah, we're best friends then!
Daniel TGC
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 05:30 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2013 05:38
I'm using a full HD monitor. But it still looks fine in my iPad mini.

Quote: "Parent's PC but they(the parents) may not allow the kid to buy the content(has happened to me on more than one occasion)."


That's ok when they grow up they can get a job and pay me £5. It's the parents decision when you're a kid, and that's no excuse for pirating. It just means you beg your parents for a paper round.

Quote: "Do you not sell DBP tutorial videos as well? DBP is free(ish)ware now so there's little to no cost of entry. Or are the DRM-protected ones AppGameKit only?"


All my DBPro videos are free on youtube. That product line stopped selling so I released it. Eventually I'll get around to writing a new book for it, and a new video series.

Quote: "If I knew where to purchase said videos"


The DBPro stuff is free, that's advert supported. You can find that at http://www.youtube.com/dcforemanuk along with all my other free videos. (There's 169 videos, so I don't think anyone can claim I don't support free learning!)

The products I sell (all are DRM free) are Teach Yourself Game Programming for Android and WIndows (Also known as Teach Yourself Coding on the main TGC website) and the three AppGameKit font packs.

The Amazon Kindle, apple iBooks, Nook, Kobo book stores sell it as well. Only these products carry DRM as part of those stores systems. The version on TGC's website comes with DRM free ePub and PDF formats.

Quote: "I may be going off on a tangent but I find it frustrating when people call piracy "stealing". Taking a perfect copy of your content without removing the original, thus leaving you to create more perfect copies, is not stealing."


I'm afraid it is. You see every product, be it ebook, software, video, whatever has certain protections under law. When you use the product you also agree to a license agreement. That agreements states that it can not be copied or distributed electronically or physically without the authors consent. That it is for your personal use only. That it may not be publicly performed in any way. As soon as you start downloading that product without the permission of the author (which is obtained by purchase) then it is an act of theft and license breach. You have not obtained it legally and you have breached my rights as an author under law.

If you don't like it, I suggest you dedicate the rest of your life to becoming a lawyer and an MP, then fight to change the law. But as it stands as an author I have certain protections and legal rights under the system.

P.S. you do know what pirates used to do right?

Quote: "Wikipedia: Piracy is typically an act of robbery or criminal violence at sea. The term can include acts committed on land, in the air, or in other major bodies of water or on a shore."


There's a reason that word was chosen to describe what P2P systems do.

Quote: "what's to stop someone from pointing an HD webcam at your video and distributing that?"


Your common sense of decency and fair play.
Dar13
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 06:12
Theft is a criminal offense in the US(I don't know UK law well enough to fight your points there), an entirely different class of law than copyright law/license breach(which the EU Court has ruled that EULAs do not trump local law).

Theft is defined by Wikipedia as "the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it." Piracy by that definition is not theft as you still have your property but a pirate would have a copy of said property as well. There's a reason you always hear of pirates being sued for copyright infringement instead of arrested for theft.

But all of this is pendantics and is straying from the topic of this thread. HTML5 DRM as proposed can potentially introduce a security vulnerability or performance blackhole via a "binary blob" DRM plugin into all fully compliant HTML5 browsers and as such should be opposed in its current form, IMHO.

WTLD has been put on indefinite hold.
A new project is under initial development now.
The Wilderbeast
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 09:44
Some of us prefer to not have to maximize a browser window though :p

The Zoq2
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 11:52
I havn't realy followed this thread and it is possible that what I say will have been said before.

The problem with DRM in my opinion is not that it violates the right to use the product as you wish. Digital content isn't the same as a physical ware, it can be copied without the owner loosing it and hence piracy is a much bigger "problem" than theft. If there is a good solution for content creators to restrict piracy, I would not blame them for doing so. The problem with todays versions of DRM is that it has other issues. Most DRM relies on a server to give permission to the user to use said content. As long as the server works, it's fine but if you loose connection to the server, you are left without the content you have paid for which is a real problem. Im sure we all heard of Sim City, EAs servers where utter crap, and restricted most users from using the content they paid for.

Then we have the XBox one, most people complained because it would restrict the use if you lost internet connection. If you know that your internet is unstable, perhaps you shouldn't buy the XBox one. The problem comes when microsofts servers face a problem and go down, people won't be able to use the XBox that they paid for because microsoft can't keep their servers running. Now the problem isn't the customer without internet connection (who shouldn't realy have brought the product if they knew that their internet connection was choppy) but it's microsofts servers which the customer has not control about.

Some people might say that the servers will never have a problem, but at some point they will (steams servers went choppy during the summer sale which restricted some users from playing games that they paid for).

The problem in my opinion with DRM is not when the customer buys something which won't work in their situation (which is up to them to know) but the problem is when the DRM fails on the servers side. Now I have no idea how this DRM will work, if it won't rely on anything that can crash I don't realy see a problem

Now regarding piracy, im under the impression that piracy helps content producers, a pirate who enjoys the content will most likley recommend it to a friend, or purchase sequels to the content. Someone who might not have enough money might pirate the content and support the maker in some other way. And I know that some people don't do that either, they pirate even when they can afford the content just because they are cheap or lazy. But those are the kinds of people that would want to go around DRM systems anyway and no matter how secure something is, there will always be loopholes. Personaly I would not use a DRM system for any of my games, because I don't realy care if someone pirates it. But other people might and having a DRM system that works avalible would most likley reduce the risk of something like sim city happening again. The people that want to protect their content can and we that don't realy care can just avoid using it
Daniel TGC
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 13:28
I absolutely agree there have been some truly terrible examples of DRM implementation.

The problem with piracy is that it's so damned easy. So of course companies are going to restrict their product use in ever increasing amounts.

The biggest issue with piracy is that you don't have to be tech savvy to do it, it was alright when it was just a few isolated guys who knew how to use p2p software, or just shoved it up on their private FPS and shared it would a couple of other guys.

But now Joe Average only has to type in a search for whatever they are looking for and 9/10 it will pop up DRM stripped and ready to go.

That's because piracy like any other crime has become big business. All these sites and systems are loaded down to the gills with advertising. And a lot of it is very unsavoury advertising at that.

Joe Average just wants a bit of free software for [ insert justification here ] and in the process they support pirate websites. Simply visiting and using them is enough to validate the sites existence.

For non-site distribution, you will often find bundled keygens applications, or altered EXE's. These products are dangerous as hell, because they are often loaded down with some very dangerous keyloggers, trojans, backdoors and other nasty bits of malware. Anti-virtus companies are always playing catchup, so a few are going to sneak through even the best protection.

Piracy isn't just a threat to creators any more it's a threat to consumers as well.

With this in mind, the only real way of totally protecting your software is to generate self repairing software that refuses to run unless the server checks it to confirm it's unaltered and matches user registration.

Quote: "Now regarding piracy, im under the impression that piracy helps content producers,"


Most people are under that impression. I have a few problems with people saying that.

1) Who is it that said this first, was it the pirates themselves, or the content creators?

2) How universal is this, lets face it one rule never fits all. While you hear about the positive cases, who's reporting the negative cases. Who exactly is keeping score, and how are they doing it?

3) What is their means of data gathering? Is someone slapping out a survey and taking what people say at face value? Or is someone actively demonstrating a system by which piracy supports their product through word of mouth advertising?

4) Which industry's does this apply to? Software? Music? Books? Is it universal for all products? After all people get very excited about music, and excited about games. But what about the less interesting stuff. The more specialised niches? For example, does piracy help a C++ tutorial book? Does it help with a cooking book or a travel video? Will the people who pirated this actually have friends with the same interests or are they isolated in their interests with no one to advertise too?

Quote: "a pirate who enjoys the content will most likley recommend it to a friend, or purchase sequels to the content."


How do we prove this is actually happening in anything but isolated cases? How many things have they pirated, how much of this is being advertised by that person? Are they walking billboards for everything they downloaded? Or are they merely advertising the most popular fad at the time. What about the stuff they passed over or didn't find very interesting. How has piracy helped these groups? How many products are they actually helping to support and how many products would have benefited from them actually paying for it in the first place?

Quote: "Someone who might not have enough money might pirate the content and support the maker in some other way."


Again, word of mouth is really the only way I can think of, and my above comments apply.

Quote: "And I know that some people don't do that either, they pirate even when they can afford the content just because they are cheap or lazy."


Yes these are the guys who do the absolute most damage. I object to them the most. But I'm sure if you confronted them about it they'd be chock full of excuses and justifications. They might tell you they plan on buying it, or that they tell people about it. Or they might simply rant about the system, throw some psudeo political nonsense at you.

Quote: "But those are the kinds of people that would want to go around DRM systems anyway and no matter how secure something is, there will always be loopholes. Personaly I would not use a DRM system for any of my games, because I don't realy care if someone pirates it."


That depends on what level you are working at. Are you struggling to make a living at it? Do you have big project idea's that need funding?

Quote: "But other people might and having a DRM system that works avalible would most likley reduce the risk of something like sim city happening again. The people that want to protect their content can and we that don't realy care can just avoid using it"


Sim city is an extreme example of very badly done DRM. What about all the products with more reasonable DRM solutions? With videos you often just download a certificate, input a username and password and that's it. You can watch it as much as you want. Or a Kindle ebook, that simply locks you into the amazon kindle software platform, while at the same time giving you cloud reader, ipad apps, pc apps, linux apps, android apps, etc etc. There's not much you can't read a kindle ebook on. So why are these being downloaded, DRM ripped and distributed? Is DRM really hurting the customer there?

When people speak out against DRM they always use the worst examples possible. And I agree with you, that the company is going to far when it prevents legal paying customers from using the product. However that isn't a universal norm (yet) but if piracy continues to grow comapnies will have no choice but to do things like this.

The XBOX One is a great example of Microsofts response to piracy, in short they don't want it on their platform. So every 24 hours you need to validate your product using their servers. This limitation wouldn't exist if piracy didn't exist, and lets face it piracy existed long before such extreme solutions starting coming about. And worse still Piracy is obviously denting their profit margin enough to justify the development of such systems.
bitJericho
23
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Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 14:31
Quote: "With this in mind, the only real way of totally protecting your software is to generate self repairing software that refuses to run unless the server checks it to confirm it's unaltered and matches user registration."


Well no, the only way to protect software is to release it open-source... Pirates can strip any DRM or checks your software does.

Quote: "So why are these being downloaded, DRM ripped and distributed? Is DRM really hurting the customer there?"


Because they can. You can't stop it. The best ways to fight it that I've seen are offering personalized products/services. (Like one-on-one support, private community, that sort of thing)

Lemme give an example of a product I paid for that gives a negative experience. Grid is an awesome race sim. It allows multiplayer on company run servers. Unfortunately, it's full of kids that just wanna stop and try and make you crash in the middle of a race. When I asked why they would pay for a game just to not race their response is usually (I've asked a few times) "lol, who pays for games??"

I was flabbergasted. Why would a company make it impossible for players to host private servers, and yet still allow pirates onto their company run servers? Guess who hasn't considered buying Grid 2?

Visit my blog http://www.canales.me.
Libervurto
20
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Joined: 30th Jun 2006
Location: On Toast
Posted: 22nd Jul 2013 16:13
Quote: "There's also another factor here you're not considering. My feelings in the matter. To a pirate it's a bit of stuff sitting on their hard drive, it's not personal they just wanted this thingimebob and saw no harm in grabbing it off piratebay or whatever."

Isn't this an issue created by copyrights? Sharing is deemed as a crime so it creates friction between users and developers. Users don't have any empathy for developers because their game is either just a product that they paid for (and people tend to think they've turned into royalty once they've parted with $5), or if they can't afford it then it is a product they have been excluded from enjoying.
How would a developer react if they got a message like this:
"Hi, I pirated your game because I couldn't afford the $40, sorry, I play it a lot and I really like it so I'd like to send you $10 as a thank you. How do I do this?"

When have you ever borrow a game, film or book from a friend and thought, hey that was so great I should send a few bucks to the creator. I've never thought that and the reason why is that the creator is usually against the fact their creation was shared at all.

If software was free and respected the users they would be far more inclined to pay for it. Paying after playing a game or watching a film would become a cultural norm. People would have empathy with the creators and appreciate their work if they felt like they were both on the same side. Take Bay 12 Games, creator of Dwarf Fortress, for example. The game has and always will be completely free, yet the creator lives purely off of donations. How? Because he is respecting his customers and allowing them to support him in whatever way they are able to.

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