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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Ways to smooth-texture a sphere?

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SamKM
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Posted: 19th Sep 2013 01:51
Hi, sorry I've been posting a lot of threads recently :/
So the latest problem I've been having is trying to get a sphere with a smooth texture... You know how when you texture a sphere, the image is wrapped around it, and is pinched in at the top and bottom? I'm looking for a way to smoothly wrap the image around the sphere, so there aren't any creases like that... I'm sure I remember seeing somebody post in the DBPro board ages ago saying they'd found a solution to this problem, but I can't remember who it was now, and I can't seem to find the thread through forum searches
If anyone has a solution, it'd be awesome to hear it!
Thanks!
WLGfx
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Posted: 19th Sep 2013 02:41 Edited at: 19th Sep 2013 02:42
chafari
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Posted: 19th Sep 2013 11:41
Hi there. Yes, you should use seamless textures. I don't know if this is your case, but Darkbasic Pro makes by default an sphere of 13*13 vertex ...we could force the sphere to have much more polygons.

Default
Make object Sphere 1,10 ...that makes a 13*13

We could make an sphere of about 100*100 (104*104 in my PC), and that will smooth considerably our object, and sometimes smooth the texture but it doesn't help the problem about seamless, so we could combine both.

Cheers.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 19th Sep 2013 13:13 Edited at: 19th Sep 2013 13:14
I think the problem is not the "North-South" seam (that obviously needs a seamless texture on one edge) but the missing texture polygons adjacent to each of the two poles.

The only way I can think of is to make sure the UV coordinates at the poles are a fixed value such as (0.5, 0) for the North pole and (0.5, 1) for the South pole. If vStep is the increment in the V texture coordinate for the top slice of the sphere then you could shrink the top part of the texture so it fits into the UV triangle with vertices (0.5, 0), (0, vStep) and (1, vStep). Similarly the South pole would use vertices (0, 1-vStep), (1, 1-vStep) and (0.5, 1). The following image (not to scale) might illustrate what I mean. The top and bottom parts of the image would need to be squashed sideways into the green area. The black areas would need to be filled with the adjacent colours from the green areas to avoid seams.





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Van B
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Posted: 19th Sep 2013 14:20
I think the best way to avoid the distortion, is to not having anything there that distorts .

Like, if it's a sky sphere, then just make the sky a solid colour, or a fade, and add the clouds etc as a different object. I think cloudy skyspheres are where the problem looks worst. Also, if you do it that way, it's easy to add an extra layer of cloud, scroll the texture, whatever you want really.

There's really no way to avoid it with the standard techniques and a single image. With 2 images, you might be able to blend them with 2 seperate UV maps, but that's not ideal and when you start doing that, you might as well start using a skybox instead.

Personally I'd always opt for a simpler skysphere texture that doesn't look bad at the poles, and a few layers of cloud spheres (domes, plains, whatever) scrolling slowly. Besides not looking terrible when you see the poles, the clouds would look awesome, and it makes such a big difference to have moving clouds, and you could even adjust the skysphere colour for day night cycles.

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Mobiius
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Posted: 19th Sep 2013 14:48
If it's for skys, I recommend sky boxes. Easier to use, less polygons, and easier to create sky textures for.

SamKM
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Posted: 20th Sep 2013 00:05
Thanks for the replies!
I'm sorry, I should have clarified by posting some pictures, I'm not talking about texture seams
I think Green Gandalf and Van B are talking about the same thing as me, I'll post a picture just to show!
The warped texture around the poles in my scene:

I can get my head around the idea of your solution, GG (assuming we are talking about the same thing here ), but I'm honestly not sure how I'd go about writing it :s
I've only ever played with vertexdata UV editing once before, and it gave me a headache xD
Your solution might work, Van B, you've got a good point! The wood texture in the image is only a placeholder, it might work with the image I'm planning to use in the final result.
Thanks for the help
Chris Tate
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Posted: 20th Sep 2013 00:27
You need a sphere projection UV tool. There is one in Blender. This compensates for the drop in pixel ratio at the polar coordinates; but my suggestion requires basic texturing and modelling experience. You may need to distort the texture in some scenarios.

If you fail to find another solution, I'd be happy to guide your steps using Blender.

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Sep 2013 02:34 Edited at: 20th Sep 2013 02:34
Quote: "I can get my head around the idea of your solution, GG (assuming we are talking about the same thing here ), but I'm honestly not sure how I'd go about writing it :s
I've only ever played with vertexdata UV editing once before, and it gave me a headache xD"


I've got a few things on my "list" at the moment but if I get time I'll try to knock up a simple demo.

Here's a screenshot highlighting what I understand is the problem. This is the view looking down at the North Pole with the source image below it:



Actually, looking at the top part of that image there are several problems to fix - not just the pinching at the pole itself.

Here's the code I used:





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chafari
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Posted: 20th Sep 2013 12:00 Edited at: 20th Sep 2013 12:02
Quote: "I'm sorry, I should have clarified by posting some pictures, I'm not talking about texture seams"


Exactly this problem, and the one that GG show us, could be helped as I mentioned above...

GG's code





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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 20th Sep 2013 12:44
Yes, that's a partial solution - but just makes the affected area smaller. Should be good enough for most purposes though.



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Stab in the Dark software
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Posted: 20th Sep 2013 22:28
What you need is a "Polar Coordinate Texture Map".
You can make one in "GIMP", which is a free program.
Here is the link to a tutorial on how to create a polar coordinate texture in gimp.



You can change any texture into a polar coordinate texture map.
DBPro creates a sphere with a polar coordinate UV map.
You can find Planet textures that are polar coordinate texture maps all over the internet e.g. NASA.
Screen shot is not from DBPro but you get the Idea.




[img][/img]


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chafari
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Posted: 20th Sep 2013 22:53 Edited at: 20th Sep 2013 22:54
@Stab in the Dark software

A polar coordinate texture could help a bit, but the problem still exist. Here we can see a default Dbpro sphere with a polar texture (marsmap.jpg)...it looks terrible. The second image is a sphere with 70,70 subdivisions and looks slightly better, but if we aproach to it, the problem is still there



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 00:49
I agree with Chafari. How, precisely, is a polar coordinate map supposed to help? The problem with DBPro spheres is that they use triangles not quads. The result of that is that you have a problem with UV mapping at the poles - i.e. what value do you give (U,V) at the two poles?



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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 04:52 Edited at: 21st Sep 2013 05:03
I knew I should not have posted a screen shot showing quads.
Ok Here is a DBPro screen shot showing triangles.
Yes there is some lack of texture resolution at the poles
but there is no texture stretching using the method I posted above.
Look at this image you can barely see the pole area.


It doesn't matter if its quads or triangles the UV coordinates are the same.
Here is a screen shot of how DBPro UV maps a sphere.
Look at the top and bottom, those triangles are cut apart.
The more columns you have the more of the texture you map to the poles.



It has been my experience the you want twice as many columns as rows and keep it even numbers for the best effect.
I use 32 rows and 64 columns.
Using the default DBPro rows and columns will show loss of resolution since it is 13 rows and 13 columns.
All you need to do is create your texture as I posted above.
This is the best you will get with DBPro.

I use it for sky spheres and planets and asteroids and they look fine.
Also using a high resolution texture helps.

In gimp just start with any texture make sure its square.
Make it seamless which can be done easily in gimp.
Then use a polar distortion on it then resize to 2 to 1 ratio.
Then do it again for the southern hemisphere.


[img][/img]


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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 13:37 Edited at: 21st Sep 2013 13:39
Quote: "It doesn't matter if its quads or triangles the UV coordinates are the same."


Quote: "but there is no texture stretching using the method I posted above."


You've missed the point, twice over.

Regarding the quads vs triangles, it does matter. Just consider what happens to the top edge at the pole. With two triangles instead of a quad you'll see that one triangle degenerates to nothing at the pole. This gets repeated all the way around the pole. With quads none of the texture area is lost and simply gradually reduces to zero. Just try drawing a rectangle consisting of two triangles with one edge coincident at the pole. Then do the same with a quad.

On your second point, we are not talking about texture stretching. We are talking about the "pinching" effect caused by missing polygons at the poles. There's nothing you can do to avoid that except work around it in some way which was the point of my earlier post (although I'm not sure how that will work out yet).

Your sphere image doesn't show the pole where the problem lies so I'm confused as to the point of that image.



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chafari
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 13:39 Edited at: 21st Sep 2013 13:40
In this image of a Dbpro sphere, we won't be able to find any lack or problem in the perfect seamless texture, using vertexdata commands.



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 13:41
Chafari

Could you tell us what you mean? What source image? Where's the pole? What code?



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chafari
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 13:50 Edited at: 21st Sep 2013 13:51
Oh sorry...here the code
Press spacekey to see the pole




In this other image we can see how we can spread out lots of objects with an unifor texture.



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 14:00
Is that the right image?



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 14:12
Chafari

That's an interesting solution, but doesn't it just move the problem somewhere else such as the equator? I guess you need to modify the source texture as well? Your "tree" image didn't seem to be the right one. Your code refers to "techno.jpg".

Here's a link which explains one possible solution (OK for random cloud images but not everything I guess):

http://www.bluesubstance.com/photoshop/polar_01.htm



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chafari
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 14:48 Edited at: 21st Sep 2013 14:52
GG you have to realize that I'm aplying UV to all vertex....we could instead to set vertexdata uv if x#>20 or if x#<20....the same with z#....and we can even have six sides or even convert sphere to box

Intresting you link GG...I'll try.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 15:03
Quote: "GG you have to realize that I'm aplying UV to all vertex"


Yes I know - that is clear in your code.



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chafari
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 15:16
Your link solution look awesome ...I will check if I find rectangular to polar in my image editor.

About my code, we could do:



Cheers.

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 15:53 Edited at: 21st Sep 2013 15:55
I think you misunderstand me. If I want an image to shrink neatly at the pole like this :



without using a high poly sphere and using a source image like this:



how would I do it?



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 15:54
Second image for previous post.



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chafari
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 16:06 Edited at: 21st Sep 2013 16:16
Quote: "without using a high poly sphere "


Simply....no way !!

Edited...now in serious, I will do something like this:



That comes to the same thing... high poly

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 16:51
Quote: "Simply....no way !!"


Unless you use a shader ...



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chafari
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 19:27
Quote: "Unless you use a shader "

You are the Shader Master I suppose it can be done, but if we aproach to a stairs...will see the steps, right?

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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 19:59
Quote: "Your sphere image doesn't show the pole where the problem lies so I'm confused as to the point of that image."


GG if you could not see the pole in the image I guess my solution works.
Compare this image with the one above, can you see the pole now.



Quads or triangles still don't matter it's a triangle fan at the poles either way.
Look at the UV map in the post above.


Quote: "On your second point, we are not talking about texture stretching. We are talking about the "pinching" effect caused by missing polygons at the poles."


What missing polygons at the poles?
Your original attempt showed distortion.
If you distort the texture in gimp it will appear normal on the sphere. If you don't it will appear distorted.
The earth texture looks fine with no distortion.

The solution I have suggested is how a texture needs to be for the
way that DBPro UV maps a sphere.
He stated above that he did not understand changing UV coordinates so the simplest solution was to tell him what kind of texture worked and that he need to use more rows and columns.
The only other solution would be to create a sphere in a modeling program and cut it up differently for a different UV map.

[img][/img]


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Chris Tate
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 21:46
Quote: "without using a high poly sphere and using a source image like this
Simply....no way !! "


No way ??? Huh??

I cannot really comment much because I do not clearly understand what the post originator is looking for now; and he is not really elaborating or showing providing any feedback.

But I did state earlier on that 2D texture space can be preserved using """sphere projection UV coordinates""". IE: Textures of planet earth, soccer balls, etc.

chafari
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Posted: 21st Sep 2013 21:57
@ChrisTate
Sphere projection is something like what Set Vertexdata UV do

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Chris Tate
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 13:58 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 14:13
How does Set VertextData UV create sphere projection chafari? How are you currently accomplishing sphere projection with Set VertexData UV?

(Please do not tell me this:
)

chafari
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 14:39 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 14:42
@Chris Tate
Of course I'm not going to tell you that ,with so few code

Somewhere I found this:



Whatever the formula you use, you will need to SET VERTEX DATA UV.
By the way this code didn't give me a total cylinder or sphere projection...do you know any code that can achieve this ?

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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 14:43 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 14:44
Stab in the Dark software

I'm still not understanding what you are doing precisely. Could you post a sample image I can test myself? At the moment I can't see how your solution gets around the difficulty with the default DBPro UV mapping. Here's what I get using the first convenient image I could find when I did a Google search for Polar Coordinate Texture Map:



here's a link to the source image:

earth image



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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 15:03 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 15:04
Quote: "What missing polygons at the poles?"


This screenshot shows the missing texture polygons clearly. Just compare the text around the pole with the source text image on the right - it gets worse as you approach the pole. It's not just a matter of loss of resolution.



I know you've said "use Gimp" - but what is that doing exactly? As I said, a sample image might help me understand your point. Could you, for example, take my source coloured stripes image and post the "Gimped" version?



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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 15:11 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 15:12
@charafi

Nope that is not quite sphere projection; I am not sure what kind of projection it is looking at the formula.

As I said before,
Quote: "I do not clearly understand what the post originator is looking for now; and he is not really elaborating or showing providing any feedback."


I do not use DBPRO spheres for visuals, I do not alter the UV coordinates in hard code, even if I had to I would use a shader; so this is a big fat waste of life.

I still think if this is the correct issue, the poster should just push the button and project sphere projection in an editor to match the given texture. Model the damn thing and load it in DBPRO and get on with it.

In my opinion programming such a thing is overkill for a small project, although you might one day get your snippet to work smoothly; I do not think this is worth my time or your time; but enjoy it if you will.

chafari
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 15:20
@Chris Tate
Thanks for clarify. I've seen lots of C++ and java codes but even being obvious and understandable code, I have not found a corretc way to achive this smooth unless we subdivide the sphere in too much polys. As you said, this is overkill for a small project and it was just a challenge.

Cheers.

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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 17:02 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 17:06
Why try to fix something that can't be fixed? Subdividing only minimizes the effect, it doesn't get rid of it completely. The answer is simple: Don't use spheres with poles.

Quote: "Simply....no way !!"


Yes way!

The second sphere in this image will not have any texture distortions.



TheComet

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Chris Tate
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 17:11
You can use spheres with poles. In the application you posted a screenshot of there is a sphere projection tool.

The vertices at the poles contain larger texture-space coordinates than the vertices at the equator.

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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 18:28
I still think it would help if one of those who said this is very simple with a suitable image and projection actually posted a suitable sphere and image so we can all see what is being talked about.

I'm with Chafari on this. A shader solution is easy to implement but a non-shader solution is desirable if only for learning purposes. If Chris Tate thinks this is a waste of time then he doesn't need to join in.

@TheComet

Quote: "The second sphere in this image will not have any texture distortions."


No idea what you mean there.

How would you texture the sphere, and with what image, to get the coloured stripe effect I wanted in an earlier post (without the remaining just visible distortion of course)?



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Chris Tate
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 19:08 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 19:10
Indeed. I will not join in because I think this is a waste of time.

But I am forced to reply because of this request:
Quote: " it would help if one of those who said this is very simple with a suitable image and projection actually posted a suitable sphere and image so we can all see what is being talked about"



Texture


Sphere


Created in 25 seconds using the UV editor and a keystroke of the following commands:


Even though I did state:

Quote: " if I had to I would use a shader;"


I would not recommend this subject for learning purposes because this is either no problem, a small problem or a large one; and I do not think it is the latter; and hopefully I will not be asked to reply again because there are so many larger issues in game development let alone the world; and this thread has taken up at least 30 minutes of my life already.

Have fun.

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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 19:38
That hasn't fixed the problem at all - the lines at the top of the image no longer meet at a point. You've changed the appearance of the beast completely.

I'm beginning to think we are at cross purposes here.



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chafari
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 20:01 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 20:03
Quote: "Quote: " it would help if one of those who said this is very simple with a suitable image and projection actually posted a suitable sphere and image so we can all see what is being talked about""


Quote: "Yes way!"


TheComet

The geosphere is not the problem , and of course that is going to have even more distortion than a Dbpro sphere. Here we can see that it has no pole but a nice star pole.




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Chris Tate
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 20:16 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 20:25
Quote: "the lines at the top of the image no longer meet at a point. You've changed the appearance of the beast completely"


GG, my point is that there is no point! No point in solving a problem that is not the OP's true problem! No point on a wood texture! No points in my solution, proposed as a measure of omitting points!

Sure, it would be a great challenge, a good way to use up some spare time. But a hobbyist or learning indie developer would produce a texture of wood to be used on a sphere using planks of wood.... not wood meeting at a point; with all planks miraculously meeting into a 0 sized point on the bottom of what appears to be a wooden bowl.

Think about it; in a texturing tool, one would paint the wood veins in this context as depicted with the grid I posted. WITHOUT scrunching the lines at a point, one can use the UV editing tool to maintain as much as possible the structure of the texture around the sphere. Think of each row of grids as planks of wood.

Consider that this is just one in many projections that can be used.

For the third time, I will reiterate, the original poster is not providing enough feedback to warrant justifying which problem he/she is refering to; the reason why I am being brief with my comments. Wood or planet, the poster did not even state that either are what he/she is creating...

Sure we are at cross purposes, and I am sure you will come up with something out of this world; but I don't think this is worth my hour now...

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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 20:29 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 21:02
Quote: "Sure we are at cross purposes, and I am sure you will come up with something out of this world; but I don't think this is worth my hour now"


Chris Tate
I suppose that all of us know, that using any good 3D program we can get awesome objects and no one will ask how they made a perfect projection...then we can export the object to .x but that doesn't solve the challenge of doing this with Dbpro. We are not discussing...of course we're not but I never get rid when I try to do something....that's like if I stop doing little things with Darkbasic Pro because there are many comerssial firms that can do awesome games, and we need no waste time doing any thing but getting fat looking TV...let's get rid off discussing ourselves...we have a great community

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Chris Tate
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 20:51 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 21:03
I'm not sure I understand that last paragraph chafari, but I am guessing your point is in line with what I stated here:

Quote: "Sure, it would be a great challenge, a good way to use up some spare time."


Perhaps a little challenging for Sam, but less so for you guys.

I have not got a clue what this following point is trying to state:
Quote: "that's like if I stop doing little things with Darkbasic Pro because there are many comerssial firms that can do awesome games, and we need no waste time doing any thing but getting fat seeing TV..."


I have no clear idea what that point is about, but my best guess is that you mean, if we do not try to solve small problems, we will struggle to solve the big ones; or maybe you mean that we should solve problems even if already solved by firms?

What do you mean? If it is any of the above, then I do agree; solving small problems are actually segments of a large one; if you follow my work you will clearly see who is challenging problems that larger firms have already solved.

OK, I do not spend my time trying to solve how to project a texture over a sphere; but I do undertake challenges; IE: Sky, water, grass, map editor; I'm even making a UV editor... Either way, what I do is always prioritized and organized; except when it is play time.

My point is that it is not clear what the problem is; I tried to post a 2 sentence solution hoping the poster would just solve the issue, but in the end I ended up posting a novel about solving a problem which is not even a significant one; and I am still having to make my point again.

And from experience, spheres are not used in general level or gaming visuals the way they are being glorified in this thread. Just download 100 Portal / Counter Strike GO / Team Fortress / Civilization 5 game levels and count how many spheres were used and you will see my point clearly.

I am trying to steer younger ones or learners out there that read threads like this, hoping they do not follow the footsteps of those who practice the reinvention of wheels; why rich kids in universities are given direction on a silver platter and pampered all the way to the top. The next day the starving programming-artist turn 30 years old working for a supermarket or something small because they never invented something useful; they just reinvented the wheel, again, and again, and again.

chafari
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 21:16
Chris Tate
Somehow I understand you...one day we are going to get an ellypse instead of a wheel...I'm kiding
That would be great if Mr SamKM could tell us if his question was solved somehow

Let's go for a new ch...just kiding

Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Chris Tate
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Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 21:52 Edited at: 22nd Sep 2013 21:58
Exactly; I think this is the most informative sentence in this context:

Quote: "You know how when you texture a sphere, the image is wrapped around it, and is pinched in at the top and bottom? I'm looking for a way to smoothly wrap the image around the sphere"


That could mean he wants the pinched top and bottom; the polar points to be smoothed, or he could mean he wants the the polar points to be wrapped and he could mean to have the image wrapped around the whole sphere without any points whatsoever; the sphere could be a globe, the hemisphere of a wooden bowl, a basketball, a cube-mapped sky-sphere or a sonic the hedgehog underwater bubble as far as I am concerned, the question is in riddles.

A real working example from some existing game, or screenshot from elsewhere could explain this.

Green Gandalf
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Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 22nd Sep 2013 23:24
Quote: "the question is in riddles."


True - but for someone who thinks all this is a "waste of time" you've managed to "waste time" writing some very long posts on one particular interpretation of the problem.



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