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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Massively Multiplayer Games

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applegm
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Posted: 26th Nov 2003 14:03
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Is it possible to write MMOPGs' in DBpro?

Thanks,
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waffle
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Posted: 26th Nov 2003 14:07 Edited at: 26th Nov 2003 14:23
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why do so many people ask this? just do a forum search for
multiplayer or internet or server or.......

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=14034&b=1

internet gaming group
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John H
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Posted: 26th Nov 2003 14:52
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Yes, if you can program it, its usually possible.

RPGamer


Dont forget to Join the Forums!
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 26th Nov 2003 19:49
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Hey Waffle let him be:

Everyone needs to fail one MMORG project before starting achieveable and realistic projects.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Elleomea
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Posted: 26th Nov 2003 21:03
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Mmm... and some of us fools never learn...

Achievable projects, pah!

How much ham could a hamster stir, if a hamster could stir ham?
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 26th Nov 2003 21:20
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Quote: "How much ham could a hamster stir, if a hamster could stir ham?"


*blink*


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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waffle
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Posted: 26th Nov 2003 22:27
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sorry, i was tired and a little cranky there

MMOLRPG....
just start with a simple client-server game and if you get that going and have 50+ users online at all times, consider upgrading to a deadicated server and hire a server programmer to convert your DB server to a linux server for hosting. Your DB clients would then need to be patched to handle multiple servers and to comunicate to the linux servers....

internet gaming group
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MikeS
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Posted: 26th Nov 2003 22:45
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Why start a mmorpg? Do people realize how much it's going to cost?

You'll most likeley end up in debt, or have the joke game of the century if you don't get some funds and experience first.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 26th Nov 2003 23:56 Edited at: 26th Nov 2003 23:56
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I too fell into the MMORG trap, I had a really rather excellent design for a game back in the early days of DBC. There was lots of shennanigans not related to why i'm writting this so I wont go into them, but basically a similar game later appeared called WW2Online.

WW2Online went bankrupt, despite being a much better game than I was ever likely to be able to produce.

After that I have always said although I would love to do an MMORG I would not do so until I had the infrastructure in place to launch such a game.

Interestingly after all this time Banshee now actually does have the servers and connections necessary, and now I have decided that I will not do an MMORG until such time as I can commit to programming and support it full time either by meens of a financier or by earning loads of money BEFORE I launch the game. This is because without sitting there for most of the day working on the game, publicising it, checking it... it is doomed to failure.

Properly run MMORGS can earn a lot of money, and the reason they do is because there is a big infrastructure behind them.

Most MMORGS are development projects with more mb of media 'needed' then they will ever have players.

As a general rule DarkBASIC MMORG 'teams' (and they are usually one coder on their own despite 25 other similar MMORGS in dev at the same time also consisting of 1 coder on their own) tend to be beginners, use matrix based terrain with massive area sizes and untextured models from 3d cafe or rips from Halflife.

DB is not alone though, all over the net there are lots of 'teams' cashing in on the MMORG concept. It would not suprise me if there where more MMORG games under development at this time than there are players of the genre.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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waffle
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 15:20
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I too, also love multiplayer games. Its nice to take a break and just kick the ***** out of someone for a few minutes before returning to work My preference is for simple war games ....
I out grew AOE and fell in love with SM Civil War games and Shiny's Sacrifice. Sacrifice gets too intense at times though. With CW I can give orders, have a sip of coffee while observing the carnage. I'm not much on FPS even though I write those.... they are too easy to write. Alpha Centauri would be a major undertaking.

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Ian T
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 22:19
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I tried and failed a (non-MMO)RPG before I started realistic projects. Does that make me insane ?

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 23:36
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Your abnormal Mouse.

It is every programmers duty to start out by writting the biggest ever MMORG. The bigger the design, the larger the world, the more implausable the implementation the better.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Elleomea
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Posted: 28th Nov 2003 02:14
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*coughs*

How much ham could a hamster stir, if a hamster could stir ham?
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Nova
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Posted: 28th Nov 2003 03:55 Edited at: 28th Nov 2003 03:56
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...indeed, good advice all the way around. I would wager that investing in infrastructure prior to having travelled a good way down the path of implementation isn't a good bet. I think many understand that teams (and I do mean teams of people) who are out there writing the next MMORPGs that will actually find a commercial venue are not writing them in DBP. I don't think there is, or probably ever will be an MMORPG produced by a 4th GL language. Even if you could afford the infrastructure (and think in the neighborhood of anywhere between 250K to millions here) DBP is simply not equipped to meet the challenge.

A bad ass tool (I think to date we have one commercial title? 3D Maj Jong (sp?) )--> but not the pick of choice for hard-core MMORPG.

---- SOOOOORRY to be so wordy, but here is a good recommendation from the heart. Go get this book: Multiplayer Game Programming -->its a PrimaTech series LaMothe edited book. Its the best end-to-end guide to developing an MMORPG I've seen as it truly does take you through a complete game development cycle leaving you with a MMORGP in the end you can build on.

Of course, If you had the time to digest 400+ pages of information, and had the technical depth to utilize it, you probably wouldn't be here asking this question in the first place... --and I mean this in the nicest of ways... I too was a 'gonna build the next Everquest, Neverwinter Nights, Ultima Online' all by my lonesome... in my spare time.

"Can't find reality.sys, Universe halted!"
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MikeS
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Posted: 28th Nov 2003 04:02
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There's been like 6 or 7 commercial games that I know of from DB/DBP

-The magic land
-starwraith(16 player multiplayer I think, so that's no mmorpg. And to think, a whole team of people worked on this.)
-tito(there's also a couple other commercial games out by these makers.)
-3D mahJong

Well that's four, maybe 6 or 7 if you look around. Plenty more to come, but mmorpg? Not likely.

Take Nova's advice, and read some good books on mmorpg's. Find out, how things really play.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 00:23
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Is it possible to make an MMORPG with DBP? Yes. Can you do it with DBP out of the box? No. Why? You will need a third party WINSOCK that will allow you to have more than the 64(or is it 128? I think it's only 64) connections that the current control allows.

Hope that helps a bit. You can find really good third party WINSOCK's on the net. The only problem is the licensing. Chances are if you're using DBP for programming, you have a limited budget (otherwise you'd be using Delphi or Visual C++). Licenses for third party WINSOCKs that allow 500+ connetions usually cost well over $1,000 USD.
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IanM
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 01:36
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Where did you get those numbers from?

DirectPlay can handle up to 255 clients, and the only '64' I recall seeing in the winsock documentation is for the 'select' function.
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 01:44
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MMORPG's are generally flawed because the content is not dynamic. There's very little adventure to be had in completting a quest that has been done hundreds of times before you. If a quest has been completed once, it shouldn't be able to be quested again. Unfortunately, I can't think of a company that would be able to coordinate/afford to staff for a game as dynamic as that. That's why I feel that the only good RPG's will be multiplayer quest once games such as NeverWinter Knights, or Baldurs Gate etc... or single player games such as Temple of Elemental Evil or Fall Out etc...

I think the MMOPRG bubble like the internet IPO's has subsided. The number of successful MMOPRG's vs the failed MMOPRG's is far less. However, all MMORPG's currently have flawed quests and have been reduced to hack and slash spawn camping or rediculous arrends.

You have to admit, doing a quest that is unique be it signifigant to the world or insignifigant to the world is much more exciting and adventurous if it has never been completed, and can only be completed once. Retracing someone's spoiler footsteps to obtain their goal is boring.

EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot are extremely boring games to play. Atleast that's been my experience aswell as many of my friends and coworkers. It just gets very old very fast. MMORPG's are currently visual MUDS. Monster spawns, kill monster and collect treasure, repeat. That's not very stimulating, but it does pass time...Just like mutliplayer checkers.
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 01:55
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Quote: "DirectPlay can handle up to 255 clients"


Well, that's definately more than 64 and yes DirectPlay 9 (and previous versions) do allow 255 tcp/ip connections. Still not massively multiplayer, but a single box hosting a zone capable of 255 players and linked to other boxes hosting zones would work. So Thanks for correcting me.
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Great Knight
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 02:49
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If i made a online RPG I would Prabily make it in Java, but not release it till I get a fast enough server with at least a t1 or better. What I think how they work is that there is a area that will not hold up to 256 players, but 250 and if you go to a different area that area max will be 250 and the next area 250. So you would have lots of players, but they will Just have to be loaded in each area they go to. I may be Wrong But Thats how I think they work.


AMD Atherlon 2400+ XP, 380 DDr memeory, ATI Radeon 9000 64 DDR, Windos XP home edition.
-----------------------And a Katana.
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qwe
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 02:56
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My online friend made a small MMORPG with some program called RPG Maker or something (he rigged the program) a lot of his school pay him monthly to have hteir accounts on it, I think there are about 400 players
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zircher
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 02:59 Edited at: 1st Dec 2003 03:34
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I was thinking about the tier thing. With 250 clients connected to 250 hubs, etc. You could in theory connect a lot of players together since each level in the structure is 250 times the size of the next. Just a few tiers would allow for 62,500 clients. I'm sure some wise fellow will blow this idea out of the water. But, the connectivity is possible. Of course, running 250 servers to connect those 62,500 clients is going to take up a lot of space, electricity, and bandwidth.
--
TAZ

FYI, the reason why I capped at 250 is a hold over from my telecommunications days. You always reserve a few channels for site to site comm as well as priority message traffic. I can see a need for an uplink between a regional server and the master accounting system (and its backup.)
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 03:16
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Tapewormz... you can have 255 Games with 255 Clients, this makes upto 65,535 players per Server.
of course nothing can actually handle that realtime, largest professional games only ever handle 1,500 players per server and then that oftenly pushes it when that many people are on that server.


The trick to MMO development isn't to try to make a single server which will run as many players as possible, but to create a Server program which allows the servers to communicate with each other.
In other words

Game Server <-> Regional Server <-> Client Server <- Client

you work to that filtration system so that you have players based more on where they are in the game world with dynamic data retrieval form quick database formats (like MySql) so that your only ever transmitting the immedidate data, within a particular area to only a certain number of clients.

It's better to have 64 Slower Server Machines (connected via Farm) to handle 64,000 clients rather than 1 Super Powerful Server to handle 65,535 clients.

Also don't forget the advantage of the Peer2Peer Systems, allowing your users to bounce information between themselves non-relivant to the actual game world. Suchas trading systems, personal information, chat, etc...


To Survive You Must Evolve... This Time Van Will Not Escape His Fate!
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 03:32
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Tapewormz, you assume that one server runs 1 application with 1 open connection to a limited 255 users.

What if your server opens up 2 connections, infact DBP can handle 255 if my recollection/understanding is correct, what is more - what in the hell is stopping you run more than 1 program at a time on the same computer? Windows opens up nearly 10 just booting ! The only limitation is bandwidth, which is the same limitation no matter what tool you write the game with.

With regards to dynamic content that is just a matter of opinion.

I recently quit playing Everquest after 3 years. Yes I was high level, yes I had pretty good gear, and yes i've seen every zone in the game and pretty much done all there is too see and your right, it was just a hack and slash - only more primitive. That is not at all why I played the game.

If your appreciation of MMORGs is from a purely gameplay perspective than you are missing the point of playing an MMORG in the first place. If you want gameplay, stick to single player games (although they are even worse for totaly boring static content, linear gameplay, and isolationism than MMORGs are).

Single player games will invariably always outperform multiplayer games for content because all other factors being equal they do not have the drawback of internet connectivity. Instead they offer a community. Ask ANY MMORG player why they play the game, and it wont be because the gameplay is little more challenging than dominoes. Ask ANY ex-MMORG player who played for more than the trial period as to why they quit, and you will get one of two answers: I found a better game; or I could no longer justify the cost (RL issues).

That does not meen MMORGs should be as linear or static as they are, infact I yearn for the MMORG that breaks this mould, just that the MMORG that invests heavily in redesigning the genre just for the purpose of reinventing the wheel needs to keep track of what the whole genre is all about - communication.


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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IanM
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 03:54
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Yeah, I remember discussing the tiered system sometime back with you Raven. Technically, you can have as many players as you want. Every time you add a tier you get 250+ times as many players as at the previous level.
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heartbone
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 04:23
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I'm encountering a massive amount of work in making a simple 5 player game.

I'd like to see even a few simpler games finished before a massive anything.

How about an online 5 card draw or 7 card stud poker session for starters? Then move up in complexity to a sports game like 2 on 2 basketball or something similar.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 06:50
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the tier system is nice and easy to impliment actually, especially now with your ASM plugin Ian.
Because you can grab the port pointers and actually communicate data directly in a server farm using them rather than directplay.

That's not only one hell of alot faster; 133gbit/sec if i remember server speeds, so as if it was part of the same system. yet it is also alot easier to add the implimentation as it is just another object and you can transfer and access data as if its internal.

the hard part of MMO games oftenly isn't the data being sent or how its being sent, rather actually making the game in the first place to accomidate the players.
if you think about it, a regular RPG you'll have a set number of enemies onscreen at once. This means you can plan everything and even script alot of events.
Online however people tend to congrigate in single areas, suchas weapons shops and warehouses to store stuff.

This means you have to create the engine to handle that rather than what a regular RPG can handle. When you add to this the fact of just how demanding programming a normal RPG is, then you find that the task can seem overwhelming simply because the game type in general is a bitch to create.

FPS however it is oftenly easy for the same results, simply because the easiest way to create an FPS is with a Server<->Client communication already between the engine and the player. So oftenly online play simply replaces the Bots with People, and takes away the Ai from them ^_^

though i totally agree, you should always start small. and preferably with an offline game, you'll find that more of a challenge believe me.


To Survive You Must Evolve... This Time Van Will Not Escape His Fate!
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 17:08
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Nah, the hard part about writting an MMORG is funding the servers and connections necessary to run the game. The support staff, the anti-hacking staff, and the associated costs of having staff.

Given long enough, a bit of talent, a lot of patience and perseverance then most programmers will attain a level where they can write an MMORG in DBPro.

Find a server to host it, maintain it, and fund the infrastructure to make it successful...? Not many of us have that kind of financial clout to throw into a high risk investment such as an MMORG. Personally I can't afford to buy a new graphics card, so that's me out of the mix


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 03:30
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Quote: "What if your server opens up 2 connections, infact DBP can handle 255 if my recollection/understanding is correct, what is more - what in the hell is stopping you run more than 1 program at a time on the same computer? Windows opens up nearly 10 just booting ! The only limitation is bandwidth, which is the same limitation no matter what tool you write the game with."


I don't see that happening in DBP. It's still a clunky language. If (big if) anyone ever makes an MMORPG game where the server can host 1000 clients on 1 pc with DBP then I'll eat my words.

I've played both DAOC(core) and EQ (core/kunark) to maximum level for my race/class and it was the biggest waste of time ever. It wasn't satisfying or fulfilling in the least. When you break those games down, they're visual mud's that can't even come close to the (quest once) titles out there. Most people who play RPG's play them for role playing escape from reality and to use their imaginations. Pen and paper games are still unbeaten for that. Some titles have come close (ie. baldurs gate, fall out, planescape), but to date there still hasn't been a MMORPG that has measured up. There's just something utterly silly about seeing a group of 20 or more people all crowded in a location bickering over who gets to kill (x) next for (y) item(s) and (z) experience. It's a very flawed system that the current MMORPG's follow.

Bottom line is, if you're looking to spend hours upon hours watching an avatar hack and slash the same old monster that seems to keep reappearing after you destroy it and have a nice irc style chat with your buddies then MMORPG's are for you. However, if you want the same sort of thrill that pen and paper games give you then you have very few alternatives. Pen and paper being one and a handfull of award winning (quest once) rpg's. There's currently no MMOPRG that can offer you the unique experience of campaigning like that.
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Tapewormz
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 03:34
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Quote: "That does not meen MMORGs should be as linear or static as they are, infact I yearn for the MMORG that breaks this mould, just that the MMORG that invests heavily in redesigning the genre just for the purpose of reinventing the wheel needs to keep track of what the whole genre is all about - communication.
"


I couldn't agree with you more. I've invested alot of time and money into MMORPG's. I've spent about 3 years playing them and hudnreds of dollars. I've come away from the experience feeling regret, loss and a general bad taste in my mouth when it comes to any kind of in house support for the game.
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Ian T
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 03:47
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Try Meredian 59.... very strong roleplaying there.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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zircher
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 20:04
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Side note here: my current pet project is a virtual miniatures type game. Using peer to peer, I can right now set up a 'chat room', push 3D models around, use dice macros in your chat, call up a character sheet, etc. It's not intended to be a MMORPG, but the basic tools for pen and paper RPGS and wargaming are in place. To me, that is a much more attainable goal than a MMORPG.

Infrastucture aside, I can easily visualize a graphical MUD like Furcadia being written in DBP. I used to be a world builder for Cybertown (VRML), I wonder if a clever programmer could use DBP's web communication capability to write a graphical client that could talk to a web server? If so, that would really lower the bar on server requirements (just use a Linux box) and completely avoid the DirectPlay limitation on number of connections.
--
TAZ
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time_hawk
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2003 17:35
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(apologies if somebody else came up with this before me)

one way to link a game up so it can have more than 255 players is to have sub servers - servers the clients connect to so that the subserver get the information. then the main "server" joins each of the subservers and gets a string containing all the data it needs for a single cycle. at the same time it transmits a string containing all the data the subserver needs for the cycle.

or have it so its running multiple servers like tapewomez, and jsut have it so it writes and reads to files on the harddrive.

well it would work. itd be slow. but it would work. maybe for a 5000 person turn based game... lol
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zircher
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2003 18:55
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It's been mentioned, but the idea of a 5,000 person X-COM war would be a hoot. For that matter, a 5,000 person double blind wargame would be rather cool. But then, I'm more of a game geek than a MMORPG fan.
--
TAZ
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Freeq360
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Posted: 4th Dec 2003 03:57
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http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/index.shtml

I'll be a "Freeq" till the day I die.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Dec 2003 05:18
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Quote: "I don't see that happening in DBP. It's still a clunky language. If (big if) anyone ever makes an MMORPG game where the server can host 1000 clients on 1 pc with DBP then I'll eat my words."


EQ runs around 4 zones per server machine. With an average zone population of around 20, and busy zones only being around 60-100 - I hardly see DBP being incapable of emulating a game such as Everquest. Graphically DBP gives you somewhat of a headstart too...


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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