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Dragon slayer
19
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Joined: 3rd Nov 2006
Location: Bourbonnais Illinois
Posted: 19th Oct 2013 21:50
I know quite a bit of DBP. I am sitting here thinking of little project ideas so I can learn more but can't seem to think of anything. I don't know a lot of the 3D end yet but want to get into it. Any ideas?

I am not talking about pong or space invaders. I don't know what I am looking for but I guess I will when I see it. What type of projects did you do to learn DBP?
Sasuke
20
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Joined: 2nd Dec 2005
Location: Milton Keynes UK
Posted: 19th Oct 2013 22:38
Ooh, well for me I just set myself challenges. Like I looked at Morrowind and tried recreating the engine. I basically learned from recreation challenges.

But at some point and I think this applies to everyone who programs games, you sitting there playing a game and think... I wonder how that's made or I wonder if I can create that for my game too and that's what birthed most of these recreations.

A simple game to recreate would be Deus Ex in my eyes, but like a Deus Ex 1.5 with improved visuals, movement, guns and extra, easy enough for DBP to handle.

"Get in the Van!" - Van B
SamKM
17
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Posted: 19th Oct 2013 22:45
I think the first 3d 'game' I ever made was this weird project a few years back I called 'The Island'... The gameplay was based around two playsers controlling different spheres in split screen, which floated around a flat square world. A cube randomly spawned, and you had to collect it before your opponant - first to 10 points won. It was pretty strange, but definitely the bridge from 2d to 3d for me. The next game I made after that was another split screen multiplayer game, which had two spheres floating opposite eachother. You could move each one left and right, and press a button to fire bullets at eachother. Random cubes sometimes appeared between the two players which gave you bonuses if you shot them first...
This was all about 5 years ago... I still haven't mastered things like shaders, and only just really got to grips with Vertexdata editing, so it takes time to get the hang of the 3d stuff, but good luck
I can post you some screenshots or code from the stuff I did if you want!
Chris Tate
DBPro Master
17
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Joined: 29th Aug 2008
Location: London, England
Posted: 19th Oct 2013 22:55 Edited at: 19th Oct 2013 22:55
Make a game you actually play; something that is similar to your favorite game; only, you make it your way. You will work more consistently and will ooze enthusiasm because your project is close to your heart.

Even if it is a huge 3D game, make a 2D version or make its levels more smaller and simpler.

Just don't make it a clone, think of it as being something new.

wattywatts
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Joined: 25th May 2009
Location: Michigan
Posted: 20th Oct 2013 02:23
Quote: "Make a game you actually play; something that is similar to your favorite game"

That's what I do when trying to learn. Check out my crappy Mass Effect clone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXz1UkGBfD8
It actually helped me learn quit a bit.

http://www.indiedb.com/games/max-vs-mars
Phaelax
DBPro Master
23
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Joined: 16th Apr 2003
Location: Metropia
Posted: 20th Oct 2013 10:06
Quote: "A simple game to recreate would be Deus Ex in my eyes"

A full fledged FPS with an in-depth story, AI awareness, and a multitude of various weapons and player enhancements is your idea of a simple game? You're a far better programmer than I!

I like to recreate games or make clones. The benefit being the game design has already been done, you know what it should look like and how it should respond. Thus, allowing you to focus solely on programming.

Sasuke
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Location: Milton Keynes UK
Posted: 20th Oct 2013 12:38
Quote: "A full fledged FPS with an in-depth story, AI awareness, and a multitude of various weapons and player enhancements is your idea of a simple game? You're a far better programmer than I!"


Maybe I should of said simple engine that you build your game on Deus Ex style

"Get in the Van!" - Van B
Chris Tate
DBPro Master
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Location: London, England
Posted: 20th Oct 2013 13:15 Edited at: 20th Oct 2013 13:40
@wattywatts

Judging by your video, you probably could build your own Deus Ex alternative; that is above average in quality for a 'crappy clone'. It's just an unfinished puzzle, a near blank sheet of paper that you need to fill in.

Bodybuilders did not start going to the gym to build one pound of muscle, they started because they want to look like Arnold. In-turn you probably did not get into video games just to build pong.

The thing about making clones is when it is time to ask for money, why on earth would people pay for your product if they already have it? There is little margin for profit as it is, why undercut yourself if the competition can supply to what would-have-been your players the same concept? For every alternative available you loose money.

At least give people the choice to distinguish its selling points and long for your product and save it from being called 'just a clone'.

True, it really is nice to program without having to come up with your own ideas as well; but having a good time and making a successful game are to different things.

Keep working on your Mass Effect style game; with its own name, few logos here and there, some color management, better sound and a few months thinking of a story of your own; you will be well on your way.

Think about what is missing; borrow ideas from other genres and mediums, and expand on that. Stick to one project; by the end of next year you might just have a game demo; rather than 5 half finished graphical demos; something you could use to attract funds and establish a team.

wattywatts
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Location: Michigan
Posted: 20th Oct 2013 22:34
Not to hijack the thread or anything, but
@Chris Tate
I think it's a mistake to consider money when it comes to making a game on your own or even with a small team. If people want to make money in games, they should develop 1 skill (art, music, programming; and not worry about being a jack of all trades(and a king of none)), and seek employment with a company which is already making money.
All the indie success stories I've heard of come from folks who were making what they wanted out of fun. And while there's plenty of great titles out there developed by basement teams, they rarely go anywhere as there's no advertising budget. I think in regards to any indie title you could state that they will never recoup the funds they sank into it, and in 99.9% of cases you'd be right.

Just my opinion. Thanks for the kind words, by the way.

http://www.indiedb.com/games/max-vs-mars
Sasuke
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Location: Milton Keynes UK
Posted: 20th Oct 2013 23:15
I think the point where making is that's how we've learn't to program by trying to recreate something. But eventually we'll take all of what we've learned and let out imagination go wild. That's the stage I'm at in programming I would say.

"Get in the Van!" - Van B
Chris Tate
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Posted: 21st Oct 2013 00:01 Edited at: 21st Oct 2013 00:21
Indeed. What I say time and time again is you've got to enjoy the journey. I say this repetitively on my WIP thread; I agree with you 100%.

I see why you disagree with me. My comment was a bit negative and did not elaborate what I am really trying to say; which is it is better to make something that IS fun and also have fun making it; not just to have fun, making something unwanted; otherwise the only person having fun is you, your players won't be; as a matter of fact without a good game you won't have any players...

It pains me to make this comment because I love this project; but it was poorly received on Steam greenlight no matter how much fun the developer had making it, the feedback was quite depressing; the main message was that people did not want another clone; they even went as far as to call it a game produced by an FPS game creator generator software program; the developer coded the thing from scratch.

Somewhere down the line, a product needs to arise; and people need to like it.

But in my own little opinion, as fun as it can be; there are many hours spent doing boring things to get stuff to work; countless hours, sometimes days.

The worst experiences I've had is the DBPRO function limit, learning how to use difficult tools and the crashing of shaders. What happens then when the fun stops? Do you stop developing? If you choose to proceed, then what for; for fun? what fun is there; there is no fun in compiling 100 times to figure out how many functions DBPRO can hold; that took 2 painful weeks of clicking one button and deleting code whilst spending hours clicking one button and deleting more code; it wasn't until I narrowed down engine that I realized the problem had anything to do with functions . And that is before product release, after game release will it be fun conducting customer service and support

There comes a time where the fun aspect has to be compromised for a while in order to solve inevitable issues; for some the goal is to pay the rent doing what you are good at; for others it is doing what you enjoy since the rent is covered.

Those gurus who say they did it for fun might not be speaking the whole truth, they probably spent one or two months of not having much fun in order for players to get their fun...

wattywatts
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Location: Michigan
Posted: 21st Oct 2013 21:08
That's too bad, I had my eye on that project but forgot about it. I don't know if it's right to call every project a product though. I mean half the "games" I work on, I have no plans of ever finishing. Every time I discover a new command I (for whatever reason) build an entire demo around it to test it's functionality.
I guess it's because I'm still trying to figure out what DBPro's greatest strengths are and build a game based on those.

Back to the topic at hand, has anyone seen these video's?
The first is (I believe) by the same Evolved we're probably all familiar with; it's a remake of the Quake entryway. This is the kind of thing I like to do from time to time, just to test out the technology I have at hand. (and it looks amazing I might add)



Also, an interview with John Romero in which he talks about his early influences and learning to make games. Could be helpful!


http://www.indiedb.com/games/max-vs-mars
29 games
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Location: not entirely sure
Posted: 21st Oct 2013 22:41
To respond to the original post, the sort of things I do to come up with ideas are:

- Recreate / take inspiration from the feeling a game, or a portion of the game, has given me.

- Experiment with changing aspects of an established game / genre.

- Recreate / take inspiration from an aspect of a game.

- Recreate / take inspiration from a single level of a game.

- Experiment with control / input methods.

- Play about with physics (more fun if you can do your own).

- Do something I've never done before (this might sound a bit obvious).

- Elaborate on something I've done before.

- Just sit and code stupid, simple stuff (the coding equivalent of doodling).

Pretty much everything I've posted on the forums (and a lot of stuff I haven't) has come from this kind of thinking.

It really depends on what you're trying to learn / achieve and what interests you. I like to make arcade style games and like playing about with physics so most of my ideas are about getting things to move about on the screen and player controls.

Just to touch on the "Acrogorpon" project that Chris linked to: it's obvious that DL187 put a lot of effort into the game but I didn't find the comments on Steam Greenlight surprising. I thought the art style was generic but then my own FPS game is purple, so maybe I shouldn't be commenting. It must've been quite a harsh reality check (a bit like Fallout's Kickstarter project) but I admire the attempt. I hope that he/she has taken the comments and sought a different target market or used it to galvanise a determination to try again, to either improve or try something different.

As for fun, making games isn't fun in the normal sense of "let's go out for beers" fun. It's a kind of self inflicted torture and the reward is the small triumphs of figuring things out and the feeling that comes with creating something that otherwise would not exist.

one of these days I'll come up with a better signature
Chris Tate
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Posted: 22nd Oct 2013 00:58 Edited at: 22nd Oct 2013 01:03
Wow that Wolfenstein 3D clip brought back some great memories.

I do not claim to call every project a product, I'd have to be really dumb to say something like that . I'm not sure why that was said; I am the last person on earth who would claim such a thing; being someone who also works on snippets and small programs over the past 10 years.

You are working on projects you do not intend to finish which is great, I just felt your work had the potential to become a good product; and it would be nice for a product to arise before one dies and is forgotten for an eternity; even if it is a free product.

As Bert Monroy would say, "just sit there and play, it is the best way to learn".

wattywatts
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Location: Michigan
Posted: 23rd Oct 2013 05:15
Quote: "You are working on projects you do not intend to finish which is great, I just felt your work had the potential to become a good product; and it would be nice for a product to arise before one dies and is forgotten for an eternity; even if it is a free product."

I really appreciate your vote of confidence in my game making abilities.
Honestly, I'm thinking that Max VS Mars will be the second game I end up finishing. The first was an iphone game that was designed purely to sell well. It might have, but there's so many apps in the app store it's almost impossible for make a dent (for me it was, anyway). So you know, I haven't been offended by anything you've said Chris, in fact I always appreciate your insight even if my comments don't say so.

http://www.indiedb.com/games/max-vs-mars

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