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Geek Culture / The Need To Format...?

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Jess T
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 07:54
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Ok, Here's the buzz...

I personally don't own a computer, but rather use the "family" one which is also used by my step-dad for work (because he works fully from home, 9 till 5 every week-day).

It's ok atm using the "family" computer, because, the system is, He uses it during the day and when i get home from school (almost finished school now, just a few more months to go!!!) i do my homework which takes me through till after 5 and i jump on the computer.

But! The computer is about 3 and a half years old now.
We bought it off of e-Bay for AU$1100 which is pretty cheap for what it is (P4 1.6GHz, 32MB TNT2, 40 GB HDD, 15" monitor, mini-subwoofer and speakers, Keyboard etc, inbuilt sound card).
And since we got it, I've noticed masive speed decreases in it compared to other computers with basically the same specs.

I believe this is partially my fault, because i install alot of programs that pull the system down.

But, The computer has never been formatted, not even once, since we got it.

Could that be the problem with the speed loss?

And what kind of damage could occur if i don't format it?

Also, is there any alternatives to formating (since my stupid step-dad won't let me format the computer, cos he's an a-hole)?


Thanks to any/all that help.

Jess.


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Dave J
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 08:35
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Try defragmenting the computer, that will help sort files and stick them together so accessing them will be faster. I doubt formatting the computer will do much as that will just wipe your hard drive, not really doing anything with the CPU at all. I'd just give it a defragmentation run and see how it goes after that.

Would also be great to uninstall any useless/not used programs to keep the system cleaner.


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Jess T
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 10:38
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Yeah, i Defrag ussually about once a week.
I try uninstalling apps etc, but it doesn't really help much.

When i was talking about the system being slower, i wasn't meaning the CPU, i meant that since we got the computer, it has slowed down alot compared to what it used to be, not compared to other PC's, I was just using other PC speeds as the comparison.

The main one being that my school computers have almost exactly the same specs as my computer does (1.6GHz P4, TNT2 32MB, 20GB HDD though) yet loads about twice as fast.
The main noticable loss of loading time on my PC being the loading of simple windows, seem to take around 5 or 6 seconds to come up, whereas the school computers they come up almost instantly...

Thanks Exeat.

Thanks to anyone else.


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 11:20
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Hard drives have different speeds. Maybe you should upgrade that.
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Dave J
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 12:47 Edited at: 27th Nov 2003 12:48
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Quote: "When i was talking about the system being slower, i wasn't meaning the CPU"


Everything goes through the CPU, hence why a faster CPU means your computer system will run faster. Other factors also affect this, ie, RAM, HDD and Graphics Card although the CPU is the main component that controls how fast your computer runs.

You say it's slower when you just open a window, this rules out your Gfx Card, RAM and HDD as you're not doing anything to strain those components. It's most likely that your CPU hasn't been glued to your Motherboard properly and over time it's probably heated quite a bit and now isn't attached properly.

I don't know if you've assembled a computer before but when you put the CPU onto the motherboard you need to use heat resistant glue to attach them together smoothly, if this hasn't been done properly then it can cause the CPU to run at a slower speed and in turn your computer and system will run slower. Unfortunately there's no real way to fix this. Feel free to format your HDD and do a clean install anyway but I really don't think it will make a difference.

Oh yes, and to make sure it's not your HDD, create a shortcut to your CD-Rom drive on your Desktop and run that (make sure a CD's in first). If the window opens fast then I'm wrong and your HDD speed may be slow or not working like Pincho suggested, but if it takes just as long as any other window then I'm 90% sure it's not your HDD.


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Jess T
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 13:49
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Hmmm, it takes just as long to open the CD window as any others.

Also, i am using 756MB DDR RAM.

One more thing, there are three different user accounts on this computer (one for each family member) and Windows seems to load at different speeds in different users.
I made sure that all the settings such as Show Window COntents while Dragging were all the same and then checked it all again, and the same thing happened.
I don't think that has much to do with the CPU, just Windows XP letting me down a bit.

But thanks for your help.

If i ever am allowed to format the computer, ill let you know how it went, and we are actually going to get a new 120GB HDD soon, and use the 40GB one as a backup (we are currently usign an old ^GB one as backup/storage)

Thanks again.

PS i haven't assembeled my own computer, but i have added components and removed/changed some, but i have never done it from scratch.


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las6
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 13:53 Edited at: 27th Nov 2003 13:55
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Quote: "You say it's slower when you just open a window, this rules out your Gfx Card, RAM and HDD as you're not doing anything to strain those components."

Wrong.

First of all you are sending the screen data (new window is visible, right?) to the gfx card that handles the output through cable to the screen. HDD is used to load the data for that window(it has to be somewhere) and it is most likely read into the RAM. so there you go, used all parts.


the thing that affects the most of windows-use is RAM. But you seem to have plenty of that. One thing that could be a problem is the gfx card. My old comp was Very slow in XP because there were no xp-compatible drivers for it. Eventhough the gfx card wasn't otherwise all that bad.
But then again, it could be anything else really. How many processes are you normally running? (after boot)

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Jess T
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 14:27
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The graphics card is fine (i think) i have XP drivers for it (The latest nVidia ones).

At boot, it's about 16 or 17, and it ussually stays at that, because i go into the Task Manager to end processes if a program doesn't shut down so that i know i am getting the most of my system.

My gfx card is as follows (Straight from dxdiag.exe):


Thanks again.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 14:33
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Might be worth doing a complete virus & ad scan - you could have something there thats dodgy. In addition, check the starting programs & services in MSCONFIG


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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 18:16
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i formatted an old computer once only after typing the format c:\ bit in the command prompt did i think to see how to actually do it, eg. no drivers luckily i found a cd full of drivers which came with the computer but still no sound i played worms 2 on it today though


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Wik
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 18:43
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Formmating would get rid of any fragmentation, viruses or unnecissary programs.

I did it 3 times to my old computer. It's really easy once you get the hang of it.

It makes your computer go much faster


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 19:20
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I blow away my machine every 6 months. You wouldn't believe how much cleaner and faster it runs, and how much silly sh*t you never end up putting back on the HD. I haven't done it in a while though as I am going to build a brand new shiny monster.

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klariza
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 20:41
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i always end up formatting my pooter every 6 months or so, when it slows down majorly.
and it seems to cure the lag of loading up progs and makes the sys run quicker.
altho its an interesting thought what someone has brought up about the cpu not sticking down to the motherboard proper.
i run a 800 mhz pooter with 512 mb of ram.
i am looking into upgrading my motherboard and cpu next yr as they are getting on a bit (had the pooter for 4 yrs i think).
i hate it when they build sound into the motherboard tho', i like to have the sound and graphics seperate from the mother baord, so if anything goes wrog or u wanna upgrade em u can easily without ripping out the main board.

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 21:02
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well it doesn't matter if vid/audio is included on main board, they can be disabled in bios and then use cards of your choice - I have to double check but the board I am getting Asus p4c-800fsb Deluxe has audio/video/ethernet included on main, no option to not have it included but like I said, not sure. Either way I'd just kill em and use my kick-arse cards for vid and aud. Although I may take advantage of built in ethernet port.

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the_winch
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Posted: 27th Nov 2003 23:43
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Definatly a good idea with xp as microsoft assume anyone who formats more than 3 times every 6 months is a pirate and make you phone up to re-activate your copy

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Dave J
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Posted: 28th Nov 2003 00:20
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Quote: "First of all you are sending the screen data (new window is visible, right?) to the gfx card that handles the output through cable to the screen. HDD is used to load the data for that window(it has to be somewhere) and it is most likely read into the RAM. so there you go, used all parts."


Yes, but there's no major strain on any of those pieces of hardware. A graphics card isn't going to bend over and die because it's displaying a window. Likewise pulling folder names from the HDD shouldn't take time at all. I they were extensively using either of those components then I'd say yes, then they could be the problem, but they're not.

Quote: "altho its an interesting thought what someone has brought up about the cpu not sticking down to the motherboard proper."


lol, this is because when I was on Help Desk for an Australian company, someone had the same problem (the whole system generally running pretty slow). After a couple disk defrags, I decided to take a look and the CPU wasn't even glued to the Mobo. Fixed it up and it ran very smoothly.


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JSN
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Posted: 28th Nov 2003 00:49
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Quote: "I blow away my machine every 6 months. You wouldn't believe how much cleaner and faster it runs,"


Same here...!

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Jess T
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Posted: 28th Nov 2003 11:00
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Quote: "Might be worth doing a complete virus & ad scan"


Yeah, but my stupid step-dad actually uses those crappy ad services that you install from the net!!!
The virus scan is a good idea, the last time i did one with Norton was a few months ago, ill do it again tonight.


Quote: "only after typing the format c:\ bit in the command prompt did i think to see how to actually do it, eg. no drivers "


Lol, i always make sure i have original driver CD's before even thinking about doing anything with my computer, driver related or otherwise.


Quote: "Wik: Formmating would get rid of any fragmentation, viruses or unnecissary programs.
I did it 3 times to my old computer. It's really easy once you get the hang of it.
It makes your computer go much faster

klariza: when it slows down majorly.
and it seems to cure the lag of loading up progs and makes the sys run quicker."


Yeah, that was the main line of thought i had when i created this thread.


Quote: "A while back I created an image of my partition with a freshly installed windows xp on it along with all the drivers installed."


Yeah, that's a real good idea... I'll have to look into that. Thanks man.


Quote: "!? ?? ! ROFL roflmao ROFLROFL joking"


You high man? Just Kidding.


Thanks to everyone that has posted, this has been an eye-opener (especially th ebit about the CPU being attached to the MotherBoard)


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Dave J
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Posted: 28th Nov 2003 12:55
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Quote: "So it magically pulls the webpage view from thin air and creates the window instance along with the message handler from nothing aswell !? what about the icons, toolbars etc etc ?? "


Someone can't handle a little exaggeration. I'm glad you're happy with the fact that WAITING for a 1.6ghz machine to load a window is normal. Bravo.


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the_winch
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Posted: 28th Nov 2003 18:13
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Quote: "Yeah, but my stupid step-dad actually uses those crappy ad services that you install from the net!!!"


What crappy ad services? Have you tried running a couple of the various spyware detection programs. I think it's quite likley to be full of dodgy software that is slowing it down.

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Dave J
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Posted: 28th Nov 2003 23:52
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Have you even been reading this thread?


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Jess T
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 03:57
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Now, now, Children.

Can't we all just settle this over a nice warm glass of Goat Milk?


Quote: "What crappy ad services? Have you tried running a couple of the various spyware detection programs. I think it's quite likley to be full of dodgy software that is slowing it down."


That's what i meant, he downloads and uses the programs from the net that contain all the spyware. And if i delete the spyware, the program stops working then he almost literally bites my head off.


Thanks again, though.


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Dave J
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 04:26
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Quote: "Yes, have you ? Incase you haven't noticed a solution has been given, therefore my last post was just me being sarcastic. Don't start getting like raven Exeat. If you don't like my posts then ignore them and I will do likewise.

Have a nice day."


The solution was given way before your inital post that did nothing but take stabs at me just because you can't recognise exaggeration. Of course it's going to take time, but not full seconds. If you can't be helpful then just don't bother posting next time.


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Jess T
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 04:37
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Exeat, that was a bite Hypocrytical. Yes, you did help to start with, but now you yourself are being counter-productive.

Can we get back to the original topic which is that I am after either positive feedback on why i should format (so as to be able to convince my Step-dad to let me do it) or alternatives to actually formating, like Virus scanning, etc.

Thanks to those that have contributed, Including Divide By Zero and Exeat.


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Dave J
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 04:40
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lol, sorry.

Anyway, surely you must be able to convince your Step-Dad that formatting will make the computer much faster, doesn't he care that it runs slower then it should?


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Jess T
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 04:49
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Quote: "surely you must be able to convince your Step-Dad that formatting will make the computer much faster, doesn't he care that it runs slower then it should?"


Nope, he doesn't trust me at all.

He doesn't realize that the computer is running slower than it can do (probably because he doesn't have anything to compare it with, whereas i have the afore mentioned School computers to compare with).
And He thinks that if I format the computer, he will lose all of his work. Which is fair enough, but considering that he religously backs up all his work stuff weekly, he won't lose a thing (and he knows that)...

He just has problems trusting me because im younger than him.

It really pisses me off sometimes.

Another thing, I have a 6GB HDD that i personally use for backup (quicker and easyer than burning everything) and I've ofered for him to use that put all his stuff on, but he is under the impression that that drive will be erased if i format the main drive (which of course, it won't be).
And no matter what i say, he won't listen to me, that is why im trying to get everyone here to have a say, and then ill collate all that knoledge and tell him, then hopefully he'll trust me.

Thanks again.


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heartbone
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 04:56
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JessTicular when you say your system is slower, is it that it now loads programs and boots slower over time (a known Windows feature).
Or is it something more serious in that it executes loaded programs more slowly now than it used to?

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Jess T
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 05:44
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Both really.

The whole system just seems to be lagging alot.

Loading, running, executing, Booting, multitasking, everything is slower than it could be.


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Newbie Brogo
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 05:57
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back up anything of value on C drive, and format it. Re-installing windows98 which is what i did, was nothing but fun! i had fun clicking, and screaming, and beating my computer, and franticly searching for CD's that havent been used in 4 years.. fun fun... e-mailing, trying to find drivers that CD's have been lost long ago. If you knwo where all ur driver CD's r, then great, do it, format it, its a lot easier when you have everything with you.

i got 500mhz, and i know what slow is, i would be in heaven for your 1.6ghz system

You did what? For who?! For how many jellybeans?!?

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Jess T
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 08:17
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Quote: "i would be in heaven for your 1.6ghz system "


Lol, yeah...

But, it wouldn't seem that much faster than yours in it's current state.

Oh, and I use Win XP Pro, but i understand what you mean.

Thanks Brogo


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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 29th Nov 2003 20:51
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you could say you found a virus that was slowly destroying both yours and his work so you backed up everything you could and formatted it, then load all his stuff back on.
or find someone older who's into the technical stuff about pc's and ask them to convince him to format, having someone of the same age giving advice and maybe even doing it for you would probably make him more receptive.


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Jess T
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 07:11
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Yeah, i think he wouldn't believe me about the virus, but asking someone older might just help out...

The only problem is, I am the only one i know that he could talk to about formattin... lol

I know the perfect guy, he's like a hardware guru, but my step-dad doesn't like him anymore, just because he hasn't called him in a few months, he thinks he hates him or something, stupid really...

Oh well...

Keep those suggestions coming guys.

PS Thanks ReD_eYe


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 08:57
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this problem is common and actually very simple to solve... and has alot to do with the Virtual Memory System.

WindowsXP runs from a modified version for NT 5.0 Kernel, this kernel uses a different system to setup and allocate ram to your system also has a very different method for the pageflip allocation.

This means on its standard installation of FAT32, every 3months it will start to clog because of certain systems. Namely the System Retore feature.

None of this happens with the NTFS system as it was designed around this, however the FAT32 you'll end up with a bottleneck in the FAT which causes alot of slowing down. Defragging doesn't help as this is an actual table problem, which is why the only way to solve it is to actually dismount and remount the drive (not physically, but digitally).
Norton System Works is a very good program for doing this, and if you have your version of XP fully upto date then it will also have this problem fixxed before it gets too bad.

There are several more options i could give, but I won't becuase you need to know what the hell your doing if your don't want to risk loosing all of your information and you'll also need to be well versed in howto use the Command Console.


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Jess T
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 10:41
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Quote: "There are several more options i could give, but I won't becuase you need to know what the hell your doing if your don't want to risk loosing all of your information and you'll also need to be well versed in howto use the Command Console."


Yeah, ill leave that to you...


Quote: "This means on its standard installation of FAT32, every 3months it will start to clog because of certain systems. Namely the System Retore feature."


Hmm, we don't use the System Restore, we have Roxio GoBack. Do you reckon disabling System Retore would help? (Seen as I don't need it)


Quote: "and if you have your version of XP fully upto date then it will also have this problem fixxed before it gets too bad."


Do you mean that if i have the latest service pack for XP, I shouldn't need Norton System Works? Or do you mean that by updating XP, i should gain some speed?


Thanks for the suggestions Raven, glad to know you're willing to help


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Jess T
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2003 09:58
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Guess what?

We finally formatted! Hoorah! ( Oh and I did it all by myself )

Everything, and i mean everything is so much smoother, faster, and just generally better...


We got a new hard drive ( 80GB, compared to the 40GB one we had previously ) so we had to install XP on that, meaning a fresh install

And we formatted the 40GB HDD and sold it to a friend ( yes, that's right, we're cheap... lol )

I used Divide By Zero's suggestion and made a back-up of the clean install so that next time, it'll be much easier, cos i don't have to worry bout installing drivers etc...


Before I formatted I made sure that I had all the drivers and program installs for the major apps that I use daily ( Thanks to Newbie Brogo's post about forgettign to get all the drivers ready ) all on the seperate 6GB HDD that i use for storage.


Once again, thanks to everyone for their help...


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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 23rd Dec 2003 11:47
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kewlio!


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Jess T
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Posted: 24th Dec 2003 05:55
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Lol, no I didn't copy the entire drive to another one...

I used Norton Ghost 2003 to make a bootable image of the HDD onto two CD's.

So, If anything happens to windows, I can just whack in the CD's with the Ghost image on em, select Format from the DOS program that loads, which will format the drive, then tell it to copy the image from the CD to the HDD...

I made sure before I did it, that it was a bootable disk, so that if anything fatal were ever to happen, it would be alot easier to reinstall windows again

Thanks for the concern though...


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Jess T
Retired Moderator
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 20th Sep 2003
Location: Over There... Kablam!
Posted: 24th Dec 2003 13:16
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I'm glad you approve, thanks for your help again...


Team EOD :: Programmer/Logical Engineer/All-Round Nice Guy
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