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AppGameKit Classic Chat / 3D Support and the future of 3D and AGK v1

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kordman916
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2014 05:47
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So I purchased AppGameKit quite some time ago and now am interested in programming for the Ouya.

I do have a few questions however,

What kind of support does AppGameKit have for 3D models and animation? Also, once AppGameKit v2 is released (Which I'm assuming will have full 3D support) will V1 still be updated?

Do I have to buy v2 even though I already bought v1 or is it just an upgrade?

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xCept
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2014 06:00
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V1 will not be updated or maintained, perhaps short of any critical bugs that require a patch (i.e., a recent patch was released to fix compatibility problems in Windows 8.1).

The existing 3D commands in AppGameKit V1 (108 beta) can be reviewed in the documentation or at: http://www.appgamekit.com/documentation/Reference/3D.htm

Native support for 3D animations are part of the V2 road map, but aren't directly available in V1. One AppGameKit users, SMD_3D Interactive, created a 3D game and released it on OUYA called Ice Brawlers with V1 so you may be able to get some tips from him.

I assume there will be a discounted update price for AppGameKit V2 if you already own AppGameKit V1, but can't recall this ever being confirmed by TGC. Currently you can pledge for $56 to get the full AppGameKit V2 and beta builds at:

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2295&page=pledge
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SoftMotion3D
AGK Developer
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2014 08:00 Edited at: 2nd Jan 2014 08:18
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My first question would be asking if you have an ouya to test your programs on. If the answer is no then id recommend getting one to test your apps on before deployment.
Secondly id also jump in on that pledge for v2 if its not too late as it will expand the 3d commands and add IAP for ouya which v1 does not have.

If you need help with 3d animating and how to do it for v1 then I can help you out and with an example easy enough. Infact I believe I posted one that I will dig up a link for in a sec.

edit: here is a simple example of one way to do 3d animating with v1. (source included) however there are better ways of getting the same job done with code. ie... instancing frames instead of flipping through hidden objects.


and fyi... here is another project im working on for ouya that has a playable demo if you have an ouya. <being created with AppGameKit V1>

http://ouyaforum.com/showthread.php?8469-Mass-Conflict-Softmotion3d-(wip)

So that should prove that a 3d game in agk v1 can be done!

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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2014 15:15
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Might sound weird, but I kinda like the way 3D is in AppGameKit, makes the coder do a lot of extra work, but it's all fairly interesting stuff - like making your own rigging system.

The 3D collision detection is quite good, and that's more important to me than animated models. I kinda like the idea of taking full control over 3D, there's a few game ideas I have that would lend themselves pretty well to hard-coded movements and collision reactions.

AGKv2 will make things easier of course, but that's no reason to stop work

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baxslash
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2014 15:41
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Quote: "The 3D collision detection is quite good"

It's actually Sparky's collision (originally written for DBPro by Paul) which was absolutely invaluable in DBPro. Some of the fastest and most accurate collision detection code I've ever used... much better than DarkPhysics collision detection at the very least!

I agree that the things AppGameKit lacks are what makes us all use our brains a lot more and often come up with more interesting games because of it.

Eat Drink Slay would probably never have existed if AppGameKit had 3D to begin with right?

oct(31) = dec(25)
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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2014 19:32
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Yeah, EDS is kinda born from Cliff's early sprite engine stuff, it's amazing what people can come up with when they have to!

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BatVink
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2014 21:58
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Quote: "I kinda like the way 3D is in AppGameKit, makes the coder do a lot of extra work, but it's all fairly interesting stuff"


Quote: "I agree that the things AppGameKit lacks are what makes us all use our brains a lot more and often come up with more interesting games because of it."


I agree too, although we are probably in the minority. I was thinking just this morning, the success of AppGameKit probably lies in the easier functionality like tweening. Most of the revenue for this kind of product will come from absolute beginners and non-coders who want to put their big idea into action as simply as possible. They need a tool that is easy for the hard of thinking.

Contrary to what 99% of experienced coders would think or like to admit, AppGameKit is a great tool for people who know what they are doing too. But because they won't admit it or consider a tool like this, that end of the market is very limited.

It shouldn't stop us creating great things though, we just need to divert our creativity into the stuff that doesn't exist in AGK. I have 4,200 lines of tweening code that I wrote 3 years ago in DBP then AGK. Now I need a new challenge

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The Daddy
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Posted: 2nd Jan 2014 23:40
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Quote: "but I kinda like the way 3D is in AppGameKit, makes the coder do a lot of extra work, but it's all fairly interesting stuff - like making your own rigging system."


Poor answer, the reason people buy products like AppGameKit is generally that they do not want to rig their own 3D system....if they could do that they could probably code in c++ and natively use OGL and a portable 3D SDK......

Setting up and coding in a 'native' language such as c++ is hard work and complicated for cross platform releases and products like AppGameKit simplify this....but should that be where they stop.....i feel that is what you are implying?

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Van B
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2014 00:56
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Making an engine from scratch in C++ instead of making a rig system in AppGameKit isn't even a valid comparison, they are worlds apart... to rig your own models in AppGameKit you need to understand the object rotation and movement commands, and some basic interpolation, that's all. Really anyone who experiments with the local and global movement stuff will see just what they can do for their own animation.

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baxslash
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2014 08:45
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Quote: "Poor answer"

You say tomato... I'm not saying that AppGameKit is fine as it is but what I would say is that being along for the ride of AGK's early development has been a huge learning exercise for me through necessity and it's very easy to criticise but look at how many developers and how much actual backing AppGameKit has before you compare it to other 'similar' engines.

V1 has far surpassed its original goals and survived to V2. I for one will back V3, V4 right up to V20 or more. It's more than a hobby for me now, I just wish I had more time to enjoy it!

The 3D in V1 was a starting block and done as a extra, it can be used to make some great stuff and shouldn't be underestimated but don't expect to be making next or even last gen. games with it. You could make a minecraft clone with a little work and that at least is still one of the best selling games today.

What can you do with an unfinished 3D engine? Ask yourself that seriously and have a go. I did but I missed 2D too much...

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SoftMotion3D
AGK Developer
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Posted: 3rd Jan 2014 21:33
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I think its fun and opens up your mind with agk v1 3d. I ended up structuring a complete new idea just because of the way it is.

I think its fun and am loving using it

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DARKHALO2K
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Posted: 5th Jan 2014 12:25
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I'm really enjoying the development of a 3D title with AGK.

Life would be easier with certain features and commands, but then I wouldn't be enjoying the same feeling of creativity for coming up with workarounds.

Though it's 3D commands may make you feel limited sticking with it will make you a better programmer!
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The Daddy
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Posted: 12th Jan 2014 20:19
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VanB

I agree with you, after re reading my rant I fully agree (must have had a bad day LOL). However, i do think that if you have a 3D engine as AppGameKit has, it should include animated models. Yes it can be done and yes it is FAR simpler than writing a C++ 3d engine / animation system, but bone animation should not be a big ask for AppGameKit IMHO!

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Van B
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Posted: 12th Jan 2014 22:03
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Yeah, I know what you mean - I don't think any of us are saying we don't want more 3D commands and features, more like we'd prefer to just try and stick to projects that can get by on what AppGameKit has right now. It's not ideal, but it's better than involuntary procrastination

I'm not much of a character modeller, I can handle mechanical things but making organic models is damn tricky for me, so I avoid it. So I'm not exactly looking forward to bone animated models in AGK... CharacterFX and .X bone animation is about my limit. We don't know what form the animation will take in AGKv2, it might be a tricky format to deal with, or it might be easy like DX9 bone animation. So I'm thinking it's better to put off any projects that need it until we know - maybe we'll even be able to make our own animation editors, if the format ends up being internal like .DBO. That would suit me - being able to animate different bodyparts like we can with DBPro.

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BatVink
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Posted: 13th Jan 2014 10:29
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Quote: " It's not ideal, but it's better than involuntary procrastination"


I sat and thought about that statement for 3 or 4 hours, and if I could make my mind up I'd probably agree

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