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Geek Culture / Important - Attitude to Newbies

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 04:40
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Hi folks,

I have become concerned at the attitude of some existing forum members towards newbies.

I know how irritating it can be when you see a "please write my whole game for me" kind of post, however some people, when directed properly (usually a link to the Guidelines for Newbies sticky in the DarkBASIC forum will suffice), will actually go off, make an effort to learn the tools then come back.

Telling them to get lost really doesn't help.

If you don't want to post any advice in future, please just don't post anything.


BLUE GUI Plugin: http://blue.robert-knight.net / BLUE IDE [href]http://blueide.sf.net/ - Replacement editor for DBPro[/href]
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Don Malone
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 06:24
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As a newbie myself, I appreciate what everyone is going through trying to help and the frustration it causes when the same question is answered over and over again.

and I appreciate when the more advanced members are tactful with questions that newcomers ask.

Maybe the forum needs a frequently asked section (locked so no one can post there but moderators) that links newbie questions to good forum responses that are now locked.

Thanks for the good info guys.

Wasting CPU Cycles since the 286 was a hot machine.
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MikeS
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 06:34
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Quote: "frequently asked section "


Is their a frequently asked question section? I don't think I've come up with one anywhere, other than the features page on the website.

[href]http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?f=tour [/href]

Even that's a stretch. Why not have a F.A.Q we can cover.

MMORPG - Yes possible, but take time
Good beginner projects - Many in the codebase, but for new users it can be daunting on such a huge site.
RPG - Stuff newbie's should know
Menu making - (even I have something in the codebase on this)
Health bar - (even I decided to stick this in the codebase)
Gravity - I believe it's in the dbp help files anyway
My object won't texture!?!?! - Havn't seen any of these in a while, but it's worth putting in the faq
Different file converters -

More attention needs to be drawn towards these things in the codebase...

IanM's Multiplayer chat

I think we need an FAQ badly, and if there is one, let me know. Cause if I don't know about it, not many others do.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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Ian T
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 10:11
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Aye, good post. Will double-check my posts in the future... I was one of those newbies myself for quite a while... must not become what I hated.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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IanM
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 13:58
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It's in all our interests to be helpful where we can, rather than slagging off a newbie - Newbies that buy DB or DBPro are paying for the further development and improvement of DBPro.

But I particularly agree with Rob - if you haven't got anything good to say, then say nothing
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Shock
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 14:52
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Actually, i really like this FAQ idea.

It would be alot better than answering the same n00b questions over and over (i must admit, i got bored of the newcomers area a long time ago and stopped helping). If someone decides to post one of these stupid questions we get all the time, then they could be refered to the FAQ with a single link, instead of us having to try and explain everytime.

If the newcomers forum gets more interesting with more real questions, people like me may end up comming back, and we'll all turn these n00b's into inter's in no time.

I strongly back this FAQ idea.


Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken.
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the_winch
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 17:26
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I think there should be a faq as well. Concentrating more on the basics as there doesn't appear to be a lot of resources for absolute beginers and it asking a bit much for people to explain in a simple forum post.
Now all someone has to do is write it.

dbpro : p166mmx @ 233 : 256mb : sb 128pci : sis onboard
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Chris K
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 17:34
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Please make my game for me.

...and like that; he's gone...
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 17:50
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Quote: "Now all someone has to do is write it"


being done right now
i've started it and i'll upload the page later this afternoon/evening. at which point everyone can add whatever they want, i'm using yellows post to start with, then other stuff


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Shock
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 17:51 Edited at: 30th Nov 2003 17:52
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cool


Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken.
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 19:34
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can someone post answers to yellows most common questions (scroll up) i'm working my way through them at the moment, also if anyone can provide links to specific threads/codebase entries where these are answered well then please do posty them here so they are included.


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Don Malone
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 20:11
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The biggest problem is keeping it from becoming cluttered with excess post.

Wasting CPU Cycles since the 286 was a hot machine.
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 20:19 Edited at: 30th Nov 2003 21:22
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what becoming cluttered?
the way its looking so far guys, is that i've tried to explain briefly how to sort out a problem and then provided helpful links, obviously they're not to hard to find, just look in the codebase or the forums, but there is alot to sift through so any help with direct links to posts/code that can help in faq's is very much appreciated.
The person that gives me the most links to Useful Stuff will have a tribute to them on the top of page
<your name> is an Uber-God/Super Hero/The Best
or something


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MikeS
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 21:49 Edited at: 30th Nov 2003 21:51
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MMORPG:

Theoritically, mmorpg is possible with dark basic professional. Even with darkbasic it's possible(once it's enhanced), but that depends on your defininitoin of mmorpg. Most people think of mmorpg's as everquest, and FFXI. A mmorpg is simply, a game that hosts enormous amounts of people on one server(Called the Client). With DBP, it's possible to get up to 255 people in one server.

You'll need
-Experience
-Good coding practices
-A strong server to host the game
-Funds, to keep the server running
-Time, to maintain the game.

Remember, after you program the next mmorpg, it doesn't stop there. In fact, you'll end up with more customer support,updates,etc.

Gravity:
I believe there are examples in the help files of DBP.(maybe dbc)

Good beginner projects :
Pong- Check the codebase for numerous examples.
Monster Hunt- full source in tutorials.
Binary moon(Hover racer)- full source in tutorials.
http://darkbasic.thegamecreators.com/?f=tutorials (the tutorials)

RPG:
There are currently no direct tutorials on making an rpg with darkbasic. BUT, never fear, because I have a solution.
http://developer.thegamecreators.com/?f=t01/3d_tutorial_index
That is a link to the monster hunt tutorial, full code for making your game. Idealy, it's a FPS, but can easily be modified to include RPG elements.

My object won't texture?!?!?:

Make sure you've wrapped your model correctly. Make sure you've loaded the correct media. Make sure you've mapped your character the right direction.Make sure there's no mistakes in your code.
etc...

Menus/health bars/skyboxes - see my codebase entries.
http://darkbasic.thegamecreators.com/?m=codebase_list&c=&l=&p=&a=d8f930f085b3181353d68ff08886b657

Hopefully, this will get an F.A.Q started.



(btw, please correct any wrong info. I may have given in the rush to type this, or in my codebase entries.)

A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 21:56
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thanks for that yellow

Quote: "Is their a frequently asked question section? I don't think I've come up with one anywhere"


look at this thread dude it included a FAQ section compiled by you, hehe this made me smile

http://darkbasicpro.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=13351&b=7


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MikeS
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Posted: 30th Nov 2003 22:08
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I was thinking of one compilied by TGC, but I guess not. If you want, you can take out some stuff from that thread, and add it to your f.a.q.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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Mattman
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 03:35
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for rpg's, look here

http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=10332&b=8

Beauty, eh? RoooooOoooooKoooooKoooooRoooooOoooooKoooooKooooo!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 06:38
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i tried to gather information for an FAQ once, but no many people seemed to want to help out.
really annoying when everyones going "oh we want this" and yet they're not willing to lift a damn finger to help create it.

i think that perhaps there should be some programming lessons for beginners. i mean the manual helps, but most don't read it and it isn't exactly user friendly for someone who doesn't have a clue.

so just cover basic things like,
if..endif
do..loop
for..next
case..select
subroutines & labels

and such - kinda introduce things in a way that will build up the users knowlage rather than be abstract in a way that they won't fully understand them.

i know that one hell of alot of newbies and even older users don't understand arrays or the structured types.
nor do they fully understand the differences between functions and gosubs or how they can be used.

adding a set of tutorials for such things would really help out, especially if they lead upto making something visible at the end of it.

DB covered what these things where, and it covered making games. But never any of the middle ground like howto use something or why we use an array over say several variables.




To Survive You Must Evolve... This Time Van Will Not Escape His Fate!
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MikeS
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 07:04
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Yea, I could probebly write a great tutorial for beginners. I've even tried if you look at my codebase entries. It's good sometimes to go back and rebuild your fundamentals. Only problem, is getting the motivation to do it.

I do believe, Guyon(in team request section), has started a book for dark basic begginners.(I've even contributed some source, but not sure if he's included it.)

New programmers are kind of in a pickle when they first come. I mean, you really don't realise it, but TGC has a huge site, and we can't expect most Newcommers to stumble upon tutorials. So, hopefully we can all contribute to Red_Eye's tutorial or the darkbasic book. In the end, it'll put good word for TGC, save us a lot of hair pulling, and encourage people to stick around the forums.

No losses in this folks, let's start contributing, whether it's some source pulled from your latest game, or a question that frequently is asked.

(Maybe we'll get some open-source projects after the alienware competition who knows?)



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 08:58
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I see where this is coming from...scaring away n00bs is scaring away potential $$$. Understandable why you want us to behave.

-RUST-
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Ian T
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 09:52
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Government: It has come to our attention that loads of people in Chicago have taken to bashing innocent tourists over the head with iron bars. This must stop.

Innocent Tourists: Yes, please, you're slaughtering us!

Loads of People: ...

Impartial Critic: Well, that makes sense. After all, slaughtering loads of innocent tourists is slaughtering loads of potential money.


I think my point in that analogy is fairly clear, but I'll reiterate: While the money is certainly a factor, any decent person-- which Rob most certainly is-- would try to stop this anyways.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 10:25
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I do think a little research by enquiree would be helpful though - unless you've got limited internet access, most things can be easily found (unlike my Amiga version of Walker, it seems).


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
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Shadow Robert
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i miss Walker ... even still it's not the end result that newbies have the problem with.

It's getting from point a to point c

no one ever tells them howto get to point b.
they just give them point a) show them point c) and expect them to make thier own way there.

i'm not against newbies needing to get a clue, but some people just want to do this for fun and to get people sitting there making fun of you because you don't know howto program and there is not "idiots guide to darkbasic" out there (which has to be free btw because no one is going to buy something for $100 then buy a $20 book on howto use it! most can't afford that)

personally i'd love to put together something like what i've suggest, problem being is i have a tendancy to end up complicating things. this is oki when your student is there able to ask you, but when it is in a set publication or such this is aweful.

need someone who is capable of understanding this stuff and translating it into the big words with pictures.


Detonating a nuclear device within the city limits results in a $500 fine!
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Don Malone
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 13:17
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But this is not stuff that has to be rewritten. Almost all of the answers are already here in the forums to some pretty common (but not always easy) questions.

We just need a page that the beginners can EASILY find that points them to the Forum Threads that answer those questions.

But a newbie is not going to read a long page to locate the info he needs if it takes to long. He will just reask the question.

That makes the most important objective to make it easily findable and easily searchable. Not always easy objectives to meet.

Wasting CPU Cycles since the 286 was a hot machine.
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IanM
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 13:45
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NOTE: These are my personal views, and are in no way endorsed by TGC

@CattleRustler, I'm suprised that *you* made that post, considering the amount of time you spend helping out the noobs. Anyway, it's in *your* interest to get more people buying the product.

From a purely selfish point of view, I want Lee to keep DBPro improving, and he can only do this by earning a crust (probably a pizza crust knowing him).

If sales stop, TGC makes no money and has to move on to new products, because, let's face it, the money that was made by you or me purchasing the product was probably spent long ago.

Without new buyers to fund further development time, the improvement of DBPro will grind to a halt ... the improvements that you are still reaping from your initial investment.

Like it or not, it's money that keeps the world moving. Without buyers, that's a little less time for each one that can be spent on the development of DBPro.

My second point is this ... we don't want to become as bad as the bl*tz forums allegedly are do we? One of the many things that is good about these forums is that we are not (too!) elitist.
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MicroMan
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One man's newb is another man's expert. I made the mistake of blasting a newbie once on another site. I had a terrible day, and really roasted someone for a stupid question. Then about a week later, I needed help on SQL, and it turned out that this newb had done extensive SQL work in another field (apart from this forum I roasted him on).

I lost on that one. He wasn't to keen on helping me with my SQL probs after having been roasted by me for a question that may have been asked a thousand times before, but not by him.

There's a lesson for you all. The parabale of the Day. Now go and be good.

-----
They SAID that given enough time a million monkeys with typewriters could recreate the collected works of William Shakespeare... Internet sure proved them wrong.
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Andy Igoe
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All you old timers are all to soppy and lenient. We need a strong, bigger, fatter whip.

What ever happened to speaking your mind? The dinosaurs arn't dead, they're just fosalised, mkay!


God created the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 20:38 Edited at: 1st Dec 2003 20:39
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Quote: "@CattleRustler, I'm suprised that *you* made that post, considering the amount of time you spend helping out the noobs. Anyway, it's in *your* interest to get more people buying the product."


Absolutely. But whether or not it is in my best interest isn't the point. I was basically cutting-to-the-quick when I said what I said. Regardless of what spin people wan't to put on things, and all the nice frilly edges, and dangling bits, the bottom line is the bottom line...$$..(or euros as it were). Now we can all sit here and tout the betterment of mankind, and help thy neighbor, and all that niceness, but in the end, flaming potential customers isn't good practice, from tgc standpoint (or any business for that matter). I was merely stating the obvious. Yes I like to help the n00bs, and yes I will continue, but once in a while certain posts just ring me up a bit sideways. 99.9% of the time I just click past and never look back

If you notice, this thread was here a while before I responded to it. I spent some time reading the thread and reading the Newcomers Corner threads, trying to find where I, or we as a community, went horribly wrong. I know which thread in NC sparked this thread, but in all honesty I don't see what was so bad about what was said. And to build on that point, it just seemed to me that the unspoken concern was less having to do with "niceness to n00bs" and moreso the reputation and livelyhood of the tgc products and community - which I wholeheartedly agree with.

Moral of the story - be nice to everyone, as everyone will benefit.


-RUST-
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Raven - Its not the Walker game your thinking of Go here for a screenshot of the review of my game..
http://www.codingarea.co.uk/html/pictures___music.html


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
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lagmaster
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i dont care about newbies, i just ignore the entire newbie forum and any post that makes me think the user is a newbie

lagmasteruk - http://www.lagmaster.net is alive! http://www.dbforums.co.uk/ - another db forum!

Dark Snippet Pro V9 is out!!
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PsychoHoseBeast
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Yes I am a newbie, to both this site and to DB Pro. The problem I have already faced is that I have been told to go look in the thousands of posts for what I need. The trouble is I DON'T KNOW WHAT I NEED! to get started.

I suggest that people who either ignore newbie posts or ridicule them could perhaps think again. Although I may be a newbie here, I am not new to programming - 15 years of programming in C and C++ in a commercial environment, plus I have just completed a multi user text adventure engine with Windows client that has NPC support with a comprehensive AI engine, english language parsing engine, full fighting engine, scripting language etc etc.
I would be more than willing and happy to use my knowledge to help people here (if at all possible).

All I ask is a little help in return. Telling me to go look through 1000's of posts to help me get started is not help - and that was from a so called moderator.

A FAQ thread is a very good idea, if policed properly - perhaps a getting started section for the main types of game people would be writing ( FPS, platform game, RTS, 2D game etc)
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Ian T
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Psycho, what game is that? I like text/roguelike games ...

Check out the FAQ, it's growing quickly ...

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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PsychoHoseBeast
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Mouse,

Its a client/server text adventure engine. It allows you to define locations, objects, npc's etc. Locations can have weather/temperature behaviour, npcs can have good and bad traits and learn by what they see and therefore behave accordingly. It has a scripting language which allows you to refine the adventure further (I provide full object manipulation support, plus user movement by default). You can have the concept of shops where you buy and sell goods. NPC's can talk to people and other NPC's, and when NPC's are spoken to they can respond with a suitable answer. It has a full fight engine, spells can be defined and cast.
Currently it will support up to about 5000 locations, about 50,000 object instances, 200 NPC's and will support (in theory) about 300-400 real people (depending on the hardware the server is running on)

It took me and a MUD fan about a year to write, and... well... damnit, I am pretty proud of it

I'll go check out the FAQ now...

Cheers!
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PsychoHoseBeast
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 23:07 Edited at: 1st Dec 2003 23:10
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DBZ - you are right, I want to get into game programming, but know nothing about animation, meshes, textures, collision handling etc etc, and don't want the steep learning curve of all that PLUS trying to learn c# and directX.

DB Pro looks good for potentially starting to understand the concepts behind writing 3D games, which I could then take with me when I start to code in c# for real.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Quote: "All I ask is a little help in return. Telling me to go look through 1000's of posts to help me get started is not help - and that was from a so called moderator"

I was a good idea, whoever suggested it - it would have been useful if you had know what you wanted. Dont forget you can use the internet (google) to search through all the pages.


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
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PsychoHoseBeast
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Quote: "Dont forget you can use the internet (google) to search through all the pages"


Thanks... when I want to search the entire internet for something I'll bear that in mind. Sheesh!
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MikeS
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Posted: 1st Dec 2003 23:18
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It's good to be independent and search on your own, but at the same time, it's not too much trouble for us to help out. That is the reason the person posted right, for help?

We were all newbie's once, I welcome you to go search my or even your old posts. You'll notice the difference.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Quote: "Thanks... when I want to search the entire internet for something I'll bear that in mind. Sheesh"

And you can localise it to DBPro - duh!


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
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MikeS
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Quote: "Important - Attitude to Newbies"


Just thought I'd bring down the title.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Quote: "TCA, I'm disgusted at how you treat newbies"

Thanks.


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
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Chris K
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Joined: 7th Oct 2003
Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:06
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I am disgusted at your shameless attempt to try and convince us that your name is 'The Coding Area'.

...and like that; he's gone...
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IanM
Retired Moderator
22
Years of Service
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Joined: 11th Sep 2002
Location: In my moon base
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:06
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TCA isn't a newbie ... that makes him fair game. Flame away
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Chris K
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 7th Oct 2003
Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:08
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Ow!!!!

Holy Crap I just burnt myself.

Thanks a lot IanM, now my hand is all red.

...and like that; he's gone...
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OSX Using Happy Dude
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 21st Aug 2003
Location: At home
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:10 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2003 00:12
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Quote: "I am disgusted at your shameless attempt to try and convince us that your name is 'The Coding Area'"

Yeah, like its my real name...

Quote: "Your welcome... ah the sarcasm prevails"

And its only taken you up to now to figure that out ?

Quote: "TCA isn't a newbie ... that makes him fair game. Flame away"

And the same with IanM...

Shame we cant resurrect the old insulting post...


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
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OSX Using Happy Dude
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 21st Aug 2003
Location: At home
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:13 Edited at: 2nd Dec 2003 00:15
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Quote: "Well I am a newbie afterall... you know it makes sense"
No comment...

Quote: "Chris Knott "

Your Knott, are you ?

Quote: "Anyone wanna see the worlds best website ? Click my link then flame away! "

I would if you had done it correctly...


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
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Chris K
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 7th Oct 2003
Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:14
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I'm starting a newbie revolt right now.

Our first act will be.......








wishing we knew how to use DB

...and like that; he's gone...
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JSN
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 8th Nov 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:27
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u smell of doo doo

-----

~ J ~
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Chris K
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 7th Oct 2003
Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:30
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You just can't compete with flaming like that

...and like that; he's gone...
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Chris K
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 7th Oct 2003
Location: Lake Hylia
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:34
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Whoa, let's not get this locked.

...and like that; he's gone...
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JSN
21
Years of Service
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Joined: 8th Nov 2003
Location: 127.0.0.1
Posted: 2nd Dec 2003 00:35
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Quote: "JSN, how do you know that's not you you're smelling ?"


Er, damn, good point...


I [i]think[/I] I smell of doo doo ...

-----

~ J ~
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