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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Hooray

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The Daddy
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Posted: 26th Feb 2014 15:52
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Hooray, hooray a T-Shirt is on its way!

At last i can wear something that champions AGK.....now what are the chances of it saying something like 'AGK for Object Pascal: Faster, Cleaner, Better!'

Yes i know it is MHO but it is quite factual also!

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Markus
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Posted: 26th Feb 2014 21:05 Edited at: 26th Feb 2014 21:08
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i like to see my t-shirt too

why not use ms visual c++ 2010 express. its free.
there is a project template in
\AGK108B21\IDE\apps\template_windows_vs2010
u need only replace the linker output path with
Debug\$(ProjectName).exe
Release\$(ProjectName).exe
(before there was Final\ this did not work for me)

i believe
its also possible making a agk dll with ms c++ for using in delphi.

i like the features of new delphi xe5 but it is too expensive for me :-(

AGK 108 (B)19 : Windows 8.1 Pro 64 Bit : AMD Radeon HD 6670
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 01:33
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I suspect The Daddy and I don't like C++, because it's always been a bastard child of C, and is incredibly verbose and ugly,

Remember that Free Pascal is free.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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Markus
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 09:54
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@Jim, you mean FreePascal with Lazarus IDE?
what IDE you suggest or use for obj pascal?

@The Daddy
what IDE you use for obj pascal now?

AGK 108 (B)19 : Windows 8.1 Pro 64 Bit : AMD Radeon HD 6670
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lilpissywilly
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 10:10
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It's funny because I always got stick for using pascal back in the mid nighties on the demoscene. Borland and Turbo mostly but I started using TMT (32bit) later. Back then everyone said (screamed, more like) pascal is dead, long live c++.

It's like a conspiracy!

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 12:09
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Markus - For Android/iOS/MacOs with AppGameKit Pascal it's necessary to use FPC + Lazarus. For PC, Delphi is probably better - but then it use it for hours every day.

lilpissywilly - Let them laugh. I can produce something fairly sophisticated in fifteen minutes using Delphi that would take your average C++ programmer about a day. (By the way - you can use C++ in Delphi as well as Pascal, if you're a sad person).

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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Markus
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 17:20
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@jim,
i found this link, i will try and see
http://lazarus.freepascal.org/

AGK 108 (B)19 : Windows 8.1 Pro 64 Bit : AMD Radeon HD 6670
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 19:27
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Download AppGameKit For Pascal and read Erik's installation notes - which are very good.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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Markus
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 19:46
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@jim,
ok,i will do and look at it. now i wonder why is this agkpas download so big.
i am surprised what is possible in this Lazarus ide for pascal and for free.

AGK 108 (B)19 : Windows 8.1 Pro 64 Bit : AMD Radeon HD 6670
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The Daddy
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 20:23
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Markus et al,

Jim uses Delphi professionally and has produced a great piece of software! Because of this one may say he is biased!

I do not use it professionally and so consider myself to not be biased! I use lazarus free pascal. I can code in C++ quite <happily> BUT Object Pascal is a very clean well developed and powerful language. Also. AppGameKit has always had issues with C++, with most of the issues being solved by Ancient Lady (many thanks) NOT TGC? However, when Erik KINDLY released AppGameKit for pascal, I tried it, and it worked 'out of the box'. Also, APK creation is not that difficult either. Jim has created a single click deploy to Android (i believe he is waiting for a stable release before he releases this).

Ironically, although 'the industry' is all about the C++ paradigm, when i went to college twenty years ago, we were taught pascal...why...because it makes sense...today, object pascal is one of the most powerful tools a developer has access to. With lazarus free pascal (my fav) or Code typhon (not my favourite) you can write ANY game and it will be as fast as any C++ executable. Delphi offers more advanced tools such as fire monkey etc which are expensive but powerful!

Today when I wish to code (for fun) I have to ask myself, what will allow me to get the results I want at the fastest pace with the least headaches from start to finish? Answer for Apps is AppGameKit with lazarus!

For most coders here, games are the focus, and the 'game industry' wants C++, so i guess people think it is a chance to get into the industry.....think again IMHO. My advice, for what it is worth, is use the tools which you ENJOY using (you will be using them A LOT), which get the results you want in the time frame you want....don't give a hoot for anything else!

This is MHO!

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Markus
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 21:52 Edited at: 27th Feb 2014 21:54
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@The Daddy & Jim
today i had look in the world of agk for pascal.
seems Erik (i believe he not belong tgc) had made his own world of agk for pascal.
its not only 1:1, Erik had spend a lot of time in it i saw.

i would say the base idea is playing the bytecode (your game) in a interpreter which tgc provides because we want multi plattform.
this bytecode file can only be created via AppGameKit ide at windows and Tier1.
else i have some ? in mind.
for single plattform we need only a agk core lib,for windows,android,...
i believe Erik made this agk core lib that did not use a bytecode,
and provide it for each target os.

i have a big mind map in mind...

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Caps On!
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 22:37
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Ok, my curiosity has been peaked. I have not used pascal since 1990, but am willing to give it a shot. Where should I start?

Truth, Justice, and the Programmer's Way!
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 23:02
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Markus - AppGameKit for Pascal compiles native code, not bytecode. It's not that big!

If you want to see a really professional programmer at work, look at Erik's implementation. It's elegant.

But I don't know if there will be an update from 1.076. I suspect that Erik lost interest when it was realised that AppGameKit would stagger from beta version to beta version seemingly for ever, with no actual official release.

As The Daddy says - my company's language lab software is a world leader, and it's entirely coded using Delphi in Object Pascal. Skype was programmed with Delphi. XE5 has brought the possibility of total cross-platform coding with one source base. Delphi is an expensive professional system. Free Pascal is great if you don't need to do that.

But, as The Daddy also says, it's best to use the tool that suits you best. However, it's a good idea to keep an eye out for a better tool!

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 27th Feb 2014 23:03
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Caps On! - If you have AppGameKit the Pascal is in your download area. The installaltion instructions are VERY good.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 04:46
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The only gotcha is that the Pascal is only for v1076.

And, I just checked and the Pascal download is now missing from the 'my products' page.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
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xCept
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 04:55
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@Ancient Lady, mine shows up in the list as:

AGK Windows Legacy Installer - v107.6 (File Updated: 12th Nov 2013)
AGK Mac OS X Legacy Installer - v107.6 (File Updated: 12th Nov 2013)
Optional Download - AppGameKit for Pascal - v107.6 (File Updated: 12th Nov 2013)

Quote: "But I don't know if there will be an update from 1.076. I suspect that Erik lost interest when it was realised that AppGameKit would stagger from beta version to beta version seemingly for ever, with no actual official release."


Yes, being in beta status for 18 months is kind of a turn-off... I think that many great new markets could have been reached if TGC were more embracing of Erik's work on the Pascal version. I've not used it personally and haven't touched Pascal since the old Turbo Pascal days of the 90s, but it sounds very nice and stable indeed.
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Zwarteziel
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 08:56
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To chime in a bit in this discussion: I have very fond memories of Borland's Turbo Pascal. It was my favorite language when I went to college and I was impressed with Delphi as well (I bought the first edition back then, after saving for some time).

Although I haven't touched the language in years, I would love to use a 'hybrid' of AppGameKit and Pascal. What deters me is the lack of updates that Erik's product has received. I understand the reasons behind it (e.g. AppGameKit v1.8xx being in beta until November 2013, the enormous amount of unpaid work that went/goes into the product etc.), so I'm not complaining or anything. Just expressing the opinion that, in order to be a viable platform for AGK-users, the 'AGK for Pascal'-product has to reflect the functionality and stability of TGC's own product. I believe Lee has stated that v1.8 has over 200 new commands in regard to the 1.7 version.

Realistically, I don't think TGC can (and should) spend resources on those updates. I get the feeling that revenues are tight as it is and I think the amount of people truly interested in using Pascal is (sadly) very small. Maintaining the product in this situation comes down to one(?) person currently(?) working on it in his spare time, for free. That's not a good or stable starting-point, alas.
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The Daddy
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 09:27
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AL et al

There is a slightly more recent version but it has not been released officially. Erik (Bilsen in the forums) did get up to 1.8x....but as he has not officially released it I feel i ought not to start spreading it yet! I will email Erik to see if he is cool with me sharing!

The crux of the matter is that i believe Erik was getting frustrated, doing tonnes of work, only to realise a <release> status was not going to be reached....hence it would mean constant revisions of lots of work on his behalf.

My personal view is if more people try AppGameKit Pascal and like it, a group is created, this group may become large enough to either a) encourage TGC to adopt this and give it some support (maybe financial) or b) the group can encourage, maybe as a group offer Erik reward for his work OR take on some of the work hence AppGameKit Pascal will keep up to date.

What is great is lazarus free pascal itself is xplatform, hence what you code on Win can be ported to Mac!

To me it seems like a very 'natural' solution to x platform game programming. It needs momentum first of all...

Okay, I am going to email Erik now, see what the score is!

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Markus
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 10:00 Edited at: 28th Feb 2014 19:21
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my understanding is
that if you want xplatform as an example for android
you must install many things and do config what is not easy to do.
one wrong char and all collapse.
that means that lazarus ide must create a java project for compiling,true?
this java project needs android sdk xy,jdk xy and maybe ndk xy.
before anything work u need to download the target system in android sdk manager etc.

i believe this free pascal provide more useful functions that u can use
at all plattforms and this is the advantage?

did someone find the source in Erik's agkforpascal that include
the agk (interpreter) core?

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Zwarteziel
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 11:40
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@The Daddy

Quote: "The crux of the matter is that i believe Erik was getting frustrated, doing tonnes of work, only to realise a <release> status was not going to be reached....hence it would mean constant revisions of lots of work on his behalf."


I can understand this. It is nice to hear Erik has worked on AppGameKit for Pascal beyond v1.076 though. If you're in contact with him (or if he is reading this thread), something to suggest is making his product paid instead of free. I am certainly willing to pay for someone's hard work, as I am sure are others. TGC offers other products made by third-parties from their store, so why not this one?
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 13:12
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Markus - There's no point in doing the interpreter if you're compiling to native code.

If you follow Erik's instructions you will get an easy install of the Android SDK and JDK and Eclipse.

If Erik has washed his hands of it, maybe The Daddy and I could take it over. But I would prefer it if we offered Erik a payment to make periodic updates. The trouble is, we're all in the hands of TGC as far as the run-time libraries are concerned, and it's currently a confused and messy system.

If we can go forward, I'll happily contribute some very nice well-tried modules to the community, including genetic Programming, so that your AIs can evolve!

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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BatVink
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 13:30
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I was going to check out AppGameKit Pascal at one point, but decided to wait and see if it kept up. I had a disappointing experience with DBP for .NET where I was always 3 months behind and then it just stopped being updated. I don't blame the developers, it's very difficult to keep the momentum going on these projects. But as you can see, not updating your users is a global phenomena!

ten-net consulting limited
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 16:27
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There will be exciting news soon.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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The Daddy
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Posted: 28th Feb 2014 18:30
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I second that!!!

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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 1st Mar 2014 02:54
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Funny, the Pascal download just isn't on my 'My Products' page anymore. Oh well.

And, TGC has officially declared v108 out of beta (as of v10819).

I just wish the GPS commands worked. They are there, but don't work and there is no help for how to configure iOS and Android to work with it.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
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xCept
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Posted: 1st Mar 2014 03:18
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I almost seem to remember the GPS commands were rush added as part of the App Innovation Contest (2012) for the Ultrabook sensors... But even then I don't know if they ever worked properly.
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Ancient Lady
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Posted: 1st Mar 2014 19:58
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That sounds about right. I forgot about the App Innovation Contest.

But I really wish they'd make them functional in V1.

Cheers,
Ancient Lady
AGK Community Tester and AppGameKit Master
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