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Geek Culture / I really really hate windows 8

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Phaelax
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Posted: 20th Apr 2014 08:57
My mom finally got a new laptop (an asus) and she wants the 8.1 update because she read it's better. Yea ok no problem.... if only I could find the windows update link.(if only I could find anything in it) 15min later (and a google search) oh I have to go the the "store" icon to get it. Then the update says I must first update 8 before I can install 8.1. Ok, done. Now when I click the 8.1 update it won't do anything. I finally managed to get it to do something by browsing MS website with IE which gave me a big banner that says upgrade to 8.1. Clicked that and the 8.1 update store app launch and starting thinking.... and thinking.... and left it all night and this morning it was still thinking. Restarted laptop, still can't update.

I really don't want to support Win8 for her. I installed classic start 8 just so I could find the basic icons to navigate this stupid thing. Oh yea, and maybe MS realized how terrible it is for desktop use which is why Win9 is scheduled to come out possibly this year!

Airslide
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Posted: 20th Apr 2014 10:14
Installing 8.1 on my gaming desktop was terrible for me as well. I didn't have any trouble getting the process started, but once the computer restarted to finish applying the update, it would always give me a BSOD. Eventually fixed it by getting the 8.1 ISO from DreamSpark and installing it as if it was a new OS, but probably should have taken the opportunity to go back to 7. Almost certainly would have if I still used it as my main computer.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 20th Apr 2014 13:06 Edited at: 20th Apr 2014 13:08
I know I have mentioned this on here before, but I'll say it again because it testifies to how incredibly bad Windows 8 is.

So I have a Notepad open. Just one Notepad. I want another one. I put my mouse up in the upper right hand corner to bring up the stupid search bar. I type in my search for Notepad. Ope, gotta switch it out of the default 'app search mode' to the 'file search mode', or something like that (I forget exactly how it worked). Finally, I see notepad.exe, and I click on it. Boom! The Notepad I already have open becomes the top window. Thanks Windows, but I wanted a new one. Oh? You didn't start a new Notepad? Let me try that again. Still no?

Stupid. MS is a stupid, stupid company right now. Too bad one of the most innovative, greatly influencing IT companies to have existed so far has turned into this ridiculous, numb skulled, 'please the up and coming bubble trend fans' company.

Indicium
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Posted: 20th Apr 2014 16:24
Quote: "Stupid. MS is a stupid, stupid company right now."


So who do you actually like??


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Apr 2014 18:18 Edited at: 20th Apr 2014 18:19
Quote: "I really don't want to support Win8 for her. I installed classic start 8 just so I could find the basic icons to navigate this stupid thing. "


When you mess with the Windows internals you shouldn't complain when it fails to update. And if you hate MS, why isn't your mom on Linux?

BatVink
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Posted: 20th Apr 2014 18:31
Quote: "Ope, gotta switch it out of the default 'app search mode' to the 'file search mode', or something like that"


Fixed with service pack 1

Quote: "Boom! The Notepad I already have open becomes the top window"


Run it in desktop mode, and it works correctly.


For the record, I really don't like Windows 8 either, just helping you out. I installed Pokki and use Windows 8 just like it is Windows 7.

Quote: "When you mess with the Windows internals you shouldn't complain when it fails to update"


They don't mess with the Windows internals, they add a shortcut icon which sits in the left corner to emulate a start button. Windows 8 still has all the start menu functionality anyway, it's a switch in the registry which defaults to no start menu. They've added it back in, in service pack 1.

Blobby 101
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Posted: 20th Apr 2014 19:47
@Dark Java Dude 64, if you already have notepad open, just shift+click the icon on the taskbar, it opens a new window

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 20th Apr 2014 21:19 Edited at: 20th Apr 2014 21:21
Quote: "Run it in desktop mode, and it works correctly."
That was in desktop mode. But it's all good, because I have placed Windows 7 on my laptop now.

Quote: "So who do you actually like??"
Nobody that makes the mainstream PC operating systems as of the current. Google is a neat example of a decent IT company, but most of the others are really falling off the deep end right now.

BatVink
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Posted: 20th Apr 2014 21:44
Quote: "That was in desktop mode"


That's weird, I didn't even know that this was a problem because it's always worked ok for me.
If you've gone back to Windows 7, you're better supported than us Windows 8.1 users

easter bunny
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 03:17
@DJD64,
Middle click notepad on the taskbar
Done

oh, and you can search straight from the start screen as well, just start typing.


Not that I'm trying to defend W8, I hate it too, but I still find it bearable

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 03:49
Lol middle clicking on a laptop is a thing.

Phaelax
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 09:17
Quote: " Eventually fixed it by getting the 8.1 ISO from DreamSpark"

I don't see Windows on dreamspark. Is that only for a fresh install or just install it as an upgrade? Not that I could download anyway, dreamspark wants me to reverify my account but I can't since my school email is hosted by outlook (formerly hotmail) and it's not receiving emails, only send. After googling this seems to be an issue with lots of ppl with no word on how to fix it.


Quote: "When you mess with the Windows internals you shouldn't complain when it fails to update. And if you hate MS, why isn't your mom on Linux?"

It doesn't mess with any internals. And your argument for using linux is pretty silly. Linux is far from old people friendly, not to mention the lack of compatibility with her current software.

The Zoq2
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 12:24
Quote: "I don't see Windows on dreamspark"


I think there are 2 "versions" of dreamspark, the public version where you can sign up and confirm that you are a student using your email and another version where the school create accounts for the students. The first one has most things but windows isn't one of them. On the other version, you can get pretty much any windows version you want I think.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 13:51
I'm probably in a minority here, but I'm still one of the few who actually likes Windows 8. Yes, they've moved stuff about and it's a lot different to what people are used to, but it didn't take me too long to get used to it.

The upgrade to 8.1 wasn't too difficult for me to figure out, guess it's a bit strange having the update in the store, but I guess they did it to draw attention to the fact there's a store.

Do I use the touch features? Sometimes. Now that I actually have a decent internet I've got Splashtop set up, so I access my PC from my tablet and it does make it easier to interface with. Even with a mouse it isn't a headache for me to use.

But, I think it is a Marmite OS, you either love it or hate it and not much in between. But it does seem more hate it than love it, which I can understand. I think it could do with some improvements still, but I guess they were testing the water a little and I suspect Windows 9 will improve on what they wanted to do with Windows 8, like 7 did for Vista.

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 14:29
Quote: "Linux is far from old people friendly"


A few weeks ago I attended a very interesting demonstration of Linux at our local computer club - the speaker was in his 80's.

This was the version he was using:

http://www.linuxmint.com/

I think some people use their age as an excuse for all kinds of nonsense - I know I do.



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Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 18:51 Edited at: 21st Apr 2014 18:52
This is true - sometimes I get customers who use the line, "because I'm old" and yet I get some old people who are pretty knowledgeable on our products. Heck, we've had 2 old people work where I work and one's just jumped into his first IT role, as after retiring from his old job decided he fancied trying it - but settled for a mediocre call centre job to begin with, he got his CompTIA and has managed to score a job doing IT and he loves it. Now, I just need to finish my MCTS and build my portfolio and do the same.

I don't think age=ignorance, though choosing to believe that old dogs cannot learn new tricks, that's ignorance, but I suppose people pretty to use it as an excuse just because they can.

One of the things I fear though, is that I think we do have a culture of making things dumbed down. I think ergonomics is important and see the benefit of making things easy to use (Windows 8 was MS's attempt at doing something different in terms of ergonomics), but I think we should encourage people to learn, not to hold their hand. Also, here's looking at the gaming industry, there's too many easy games that hold the player's hands.

BatVink
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 19:02
Quote: "Windows 8 was MS's attempt at doing something different in terms of ergonomics"


Not quite sure if that's the right word. In terms of ergonomics, we already had swipeable tablets, Microsoft didn't bring that. And Windows 8 on touchscreen laptops just doesn't work. You have to bend your wrist unnaturally backwards and it becomes like RSI after a few minutes of use. You also have to be close to a monitor to swipe and screens are generally close to vertical for visibility so again ergonomic use is badly thought out.

If you are talking more about usability, I think they missed the mark again. If you know what you want, can remember it's name and are adept at using a keyboard, it's fine. Otherwise, Windows 8 lost the ability to narrow down the hunt for your program* by folder. The one thing they kept which I'm grateful for is being able to pin your favourite programs* to get to them quicker.

I am very disappointed in Microsoft's form over function mentality with this release. Previously we've all complained that things are different, but we get used to it over time. With Windows 8, they've decided we should all break our wrists to use touchscreen laptops and desktops, and pay the price of hard-to-navigate navigation in order to pretty things up.

*Yes, they are programs not apps!

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 21:26 Edited at: 21st Apr 2014 21:27
It's not something done in a desktop OS previously (Apple's implementation of 'touch' in MacOSX was different, though probably better), but not new in terms of tablets. Arguable it's not an improvement on what they've already done, trying to do something differently doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea. The 'All Apps/Programs' I admin is...pretty poor, how it was previously was definitely better.

There are some positive things I would say, whilst it has a lot of good stuff for tablet interfaces (for me, it's useful in that I sometimes like to remotely access my desktop).

I think some of it integrates well into the desktop OS - perhaps better in 8.1, I prefer how I'm using the icons and grouping them on my home screen. Also having dockable apps is useful in some respects, like Google Chrome in Windows 8 mode. If I'm wanting to use it and keep it on top and without it being too much of an eye-sore, I can. An example of one use I have for it is below.



Why's this better than the alternative? Everything I'm doing in the right pane will not affect the left pane, so I don't have to keep bringing up my video player when moving through my workflow (nothing will overlap it). Having 2 normal windows side-by-side (like in Windows 7) will work, but say, I've not only go Visual Web Developer open, but SQL Management Studio or another browser for debugging? This actually makes it more convenient to use. And with 8.1, I can adjust it fairly easily to suit my workflow.

Of course, not necessarily just for tutorial videos, but also I could have a reference up there (like a reference book bought via the Google Play store or Kindle, I have one such reference book I use). Or maybe I'm using an online reference like MSDN. This is quite useful considering I'm not using a dual-monitor set up.

Though, I don't deny some of their choices in design have been poor, but they've shown in the past they can learn from poor design choices and improve on them for later releases, I suspect this is what Windows 9 will be. Despite it's flaws, I wouldn't say Windows 8 is a bad OS, because I would say each has its flaws, it's just a question whether you find it usable. I find it an improvement in many places on my user experience with Windows 7, but also some areas that I felt Win 7 did better.

BatVink
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Posted: 21st Apr 2014 21:37
Quote: "Despite it's flaws, I wouldn't say Windows 8 is a bad OS"


I'm guessing that underneath it's a lot better, I believe it's more efficient at a lot of operations. The problem is that most people get hung up on the interface and don't look beyond. Despite trying to be a rational human being, I unfortunately fall into this category to a significant degree

Airslide
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 00:47
Quote: "I don't see Windows on dreamspark."


It's in the "Premium" version of DreamSpark that my school set me up with, as The Zoq2 described. I think you can also get an ISO from MSDN, if you're a member, but unfortunately Microsoft does not seem to give regular owners of legitimate keys access to any download. Which is silly since I resorted to the DreamSpark ISO because it refused to create a restore disc that didn't ultimately turn up an error.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 01:54
Quote: "Despite trying to be a rational human being, I unfortunately fall into this category to a significant degree"
There is nothing wrong with that! The interface, as far as your brain is concerned, is the operating system. So looking past the interface and marveling at the OS purely for its internals would, in regards to most average users, be considered a little irrational in itself.

Having had Windows 8 (and then 8.1) for the past several months (I have since moved on to 7 as you know), I can say that the internals do 'feel' nice, so to speak. The OS was quick and responsive, and oh boy, those start up times were nice.

But from the average user's perspective, the interface is all they see and all they care about.

bitJericho
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 04:08
Quote: "Linux is far from old people friendly"


Have you talked to many old people who've used it?

Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 05:29 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2014 05:30
Microsoft finally admits defeat, will bring Start menu back in future Windows 8 update

Quote: "Yes, it took Microsoft more than three years to backtrack on Windows 8's nightmarish interface and usability changes, but it seems the company is finally coming around to the fact that it shouldn't ignore the needs of hundreds of millions of PC users."


Well said.

nonZero
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 13:48
DJD: I gotta protip for you but it'll cost you 34.98246342 of your points. You can deposit them next time you post in the posting comp. Sooo:
Quote: "So I have a Notepad open. Just one Notepad. I want another one..."

Winkey+R, then type "notepad" or "notepad.exe", done. Can't remember if it's valid on Win8 as I only tried the preview years back. Still useful for other Windows.

Win8 still sucks, ftr.

Phaelax: Since your mom is prepared to change to win8 then why not use the opportunity to get her onto Linux? The gap between win7/winXP and win8 is about the same as win7/XP and a "user-friendly" desktop environment configuration in Linux. Just a thought.


You're a bad man!
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 13:57
Quote: "Winkey+R, then type "notepad" or "notepad.exe", done."


I just love user friendly solutions like that.



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Phaelax
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2014 18:55
Quote: "I think some people use their age as an excuse for all kinds of nonsense - I know I do. "

Fair enough :p

I used to have linux mint on my laptop, and I did like it. I think my mom could possibly get used to it, but she'd be bugging me all the time asking what's the equivalent program to the old windows ones. Plus, there's still the drawback that she needs windows for her school.


I just don't understand why MS fought against putting a proper start menu in 8. The underlying functionality is already there, why not allow an option for it. I find the start menu far more usable than that metro flippy screen.

nonZero
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 10:17
Quote: "I just don't understand why MS fought against putting a proper start menu in 8."

Because software dictates what experience the user wants nowadays. MS made an err in judgement when they thought they could make people think it was cool if their desktop acted like a tablet but generally the rule of a UI is to change it with each major release and obfuscate everything as much as possible. Then tell everyone they like it so they'll like it so it justifies the developer making a bigger mess next time.


You're a bad man!
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2014 16:18
Quote: "the rule of a UI is to change it with each major release and obfuscate everything as much as possible. Then tell everyone they like it so they'll like it so it justifies the developer making a bigger mess next time."
I truly do love satire.

Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 06:56
Quote: "I just don't understand why MS fought against putting a proper start menu in 8. The underlying functionality is already there, why not allow an option for it. I find the start menu far more usable than that metro flippy screen."


I know, right? That's what pissed me off more than anything about Windows 8 - getting rid of a very, very key feature that literally almost made Windows what it was, was probably the worst idea they ever had.

So you'll be happy to hear that they're putting it back in!

Sometime in August, apparently. About freakin' time, MicroSuck!


Come check out my new website!
s4real
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Posted: 24th Apr 2014 17:08
I use windows 8.1 and have no problems at all the thing people seem to be doing is overthinking about how windows 8 works.

It in fact works the same as windows 7 its just the startmenu is now a front screen not a button on the left of your taskbar.

All programs is in fact the icons you see on startmenu front screen.

To search you just have to click into a corner and it searches the same as before.

In windows 8 and 8.1 if you left click where the startmenu button was in 8 or the button in 8.1 you can easy get where you need to be like control panel.

==================================================================

The only downside is you do have to have everything you run have full control with admin rights and the only way to do this for gaming is to left click the hard drive and allow full admin right to the harddrive.

Once this is done programs run fine.


Just my view and loving windows 8 for the share speed.

best s4real

Amd fx4100,6gb ram,geforce 450
bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 01:16
Quote: "The only downside is you do have to have everything you run have full control with admin rights and the only way to do this for gaming is to left click the hard drive and allow full admin right to the harddrive."


What are you talking about?? I certainly wouldnt give every app admin rights. Is this an FPSC/DBP thing? If so, well that's no surprise then.

Kezzla
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 03:40
I don't mind windows 8.1, I use the Classic Shell startmenu program which allows windows to boot straight into desktop mode with your choice of start menu version. I rarely if ever see the new interface(which I must say had me dismally lost for my first adventures on windows 8).

With that addition it is pretty much the same as win7 with faster boot-up speed.

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Hawkblood
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 04:37
It seems Microsoft tries to fix something that isn't broken by breaking it:

Win95: good
WinME: sucked
WinXP: good
Vista: sucked
Win7: good
Win8: sucks

Seems like a trend...... Just my opinion.

The fastest code is the code never written.
bitJericho
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 14:51
Quote: "Seems like a trend...... Just my opinion."


Win95: good
Win98: good
Win98SE: good
WinME: sucked
Win2000: good
WinXP: good
Vista: sucked
Win7: good
Win8: sucks
Win8.1: Good?

Not so much of a trend. Also, imo vista was awesome A hog yes, but it was a heck of a step up from XP.

Airslide
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 21:56
I don't really think the biggest issue of Windows 8 has anything to do with the start screen or the start menu – it's the separation of the OS into what essentially feels like two different worlds, the "Modern UI" and the desktop. And the "Modern UI" clearly favors tablets that are relatively small compared to large desktop monitors.

IMO they would have been better off keeping the desktop as the first-class citizen, and naturally scaling the OS based on screen size. For instance, on smaller touch screens, apps would automatically take up the whole screen and the start menu would take up the whole screen as well. As the screen size gets larger, apps get floating windows again and the start screen shrinks to more of what we think of as the start menu. It would all be adjustable of course.
The Zoq2
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 23:14
I agree with that, the first thing I though when I started using windows 8 was, this is 2 oses built into one.

Say ONE stupid thing and it ends up as a forum signature forever. - Neuro Fuzzy
Yodaman Jer
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 23:31
Definitely. They tried too hard (and way too fast!) to make it a multi-device operating system and it totally bombed because of that.

They should have at least made two different versions of Windows 8 - one that defaults to the "Classic Windows" we all know and love, and included the Start Menu, and the other could've been what they released originally, with the new start screen in place of the Start Menu.

Or, perhaps a better idea would've been to just make all the new stuff completely optional! At least then it wouldn't have been as intimidating.

Honestly, Windows 8 is what pushed me to Mac, you guys. Well, that and I wanted to be able to develop for Mac and Windows, so... yeah.


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Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 25th Apr 2014 23:38
Quote: "Honestly, Windows 8 is what pushed me to Mac, you guys."
Never thought I'd say this, but, good a reason as any!

If I had a choice between 8 and OSX, I really don't know which I would choose. I'd probably stick with 8, but it would be a close tie.

Libervurto
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Posted: 26th Apr 2014 03:20
I am dreading this as my Mum just bought a new laptop with Windows 8 preloaded.
Her desktop, running Vista, became so slow that it took several minutes to open MS Word, so I installed a version of GNU/Linux called Elementary as it's quite a pretty one and seemed fairly "user-friendly".
Interestingly she liked the OS a lot but couldn't get to grips with LibreOffice or GIMP because they're "too different" from MS Office and Photoshop. I have to admit there are a few oddities with LibreOffice, I'd really like to contribute to it some day if I can help fix some bugs, but I use it myself and it does everything I need.
I tried installing MS Office through WINE but there were a bunch of issues and I gave up.

So it was decided that a new computer was due anyway and a laptop would be nice. *Searches internet* Everything comes with Win 8 pre-installed, oh dear...

Formerly OBese87.
Phaelax
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Posted: 26th Apr 2014 08:23
Elementary looks like OS X.

My mom is definitely sticking with Windows now, she bought Office after I told her I had a copy. Office costs 50% of the laptop!

s4real
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Posted: 26th Apr 2014 10:58
Quote: "What are you talking about?? I certainly wouldnt give every app admin rights. Is this an FPSC/DBP thing? If so, well that's no surprise then."


With windows 8.1 I'm finding this more and more with games because the way they read and write its a new protection system in windows 8.1.

Maybe if you don't use there built in antivirus u might not get it but I'm having to run a lot of things in admin these days.

Its not just a fpsc/dbp problem.

Best s4real

Amd fx4100,6gb ram,geforce 450
Phaelax
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Posted: 26th Apr 2014 19:35
In case anyone else has had any trouble updating to 8.1, I found this site that can help.
http://www.extremetech.com/computing/178091-how-to-download-and-install-windows-8-1-update-1-for-free-right-now

The Next
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Posted: 27th Apr 2014 03:15 Edited at: 27th Apr 2014 03:17
I personally hate Windows 8 not for the UI, as I work around it with 3rd party software, but for the fact it is so unstable.

I have applications crashing all the time including Photoshop, Office and Skype. All of which were fine on Windows 7 on this exact same machine!

I have Word open for more than 15 minutes and it crashes causing me to lose whatever I haven't saved (I save a lot ). The OS is fast that much is sure but what good is fast when it is so unstable.

I often have an issue causing me to crash explorer.exe if I click on the task bar too soon after logging in. That should not happen on a PC of my specs, it never did with Windows 7.

Personally I loved Windows XP and 7 (even Vista was ok) I don't complain about OS very often but Windows 8 is dire simply the worst OS they have released.

I am looking at my next laptop (current one just broke ) being a MAC due to the fact all the manufacturers have moved over to Windows 8 and the new laptops aren't even releasing Windows 7 drivers.

Windows 7 Pro, Intel i7 3.8 GHz, 16GB DDR3, NVIDIA GTX 780 4GB Superclocked

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Indicium
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Joined: 26th May 2008
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Posted: 27th Apr 2014 04:54
I've found 8 to be a massive improvement in every area except UI.


They see me coding, they hating. http://indi-indicium.blogspot.co.uk/
Kezzla
15
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Joined: 21st Aug 2008
Location: Where beer does flow and men chunder
Posted: 27th Apr 2014 05:07
Quote: "I personally hate Windows 8 not for the UI, as I work around it with 3rd party software, but for the fact it is so unstable.

I have applications crashing all the time including Photoshop, Office and Skype. All of which were fine on Windows 7 on this exact same machine!"


Strange, I am yet to experience a windows 8 crash. I have found it to be extremely stable after using it for a year now. I use Photoshop and office quite a lot.

To Err is Human...
To Arr is Pirate!
Seditious
10
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Joined: 2nd Aug 2013
Location: France
Posted: 27th Apr 2014 06:12 Edited at: 27th Apr 2014 06:13
Quote: "I often have an issue causing me to crash explorer.exe if I click on the task bar too soon after logging in."


It's very likely you have an unstable 3rd-party shell extension installed. You can view/enable/disable/etc shell extensions with ShellExView.

As for the other issues, it could be your drivers I guess.
The Next
Web Engineer
16
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Joined: 3rd Dec 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 27th Apr 2014 18:12
All the drivers have been certified for Windows 8 and I have checked for other users having issues with them and nothing. Even when I remove the only 3rd party start menu I still get crashes, it is start8 I use which is pretty stable from what I can tell.

I have lost all faith in Windows 8 now as I have used every version of Windows since 95 and they have never been this painful of an experience.

Windows 7 Pro, Intel i7 3.8 GHz, 16GB DDR3, NVIDIA GTX 780 4GB Superclocked

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Seppuku Arts
Moderator
19
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Joined: 18th Aug 2004
Location: Cambridgeshire, England
Posted: 29th Apr 2014 12:53
Odd, that you're experiencing all these problems, I've got Win 8 on 3 machines and am not experiencing any stability issues, perhaps you're one of the unlucky ones? Mind you, the problems you describe (and then some) I had on pre-SP 2 on XP and it is now held on a pedestal as an OS.

Dark Java Dude 64
Community Leader
13
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Joined: 21st Sep 2010
Location: Neither here nor there nor anywhere
Posted: 30th Apr 2014 02:20
Quote: "it is now held on a pedestal as an OS."
I would buy a lottery ticket if that happened to Windows 8! But I think you just said that for the sake of giving your example some perspective, which is surely fine of course.

But supporting 8 is not.

Seditious
10
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Joined: 2nd Aug 2013
Location: France
Posted: 30th Apr 2014 02:39
Quote: "Mind you, the problems you describe (and then some) I had on pre-SP 2 on XP and it is now held on a pedestal as an OS."


And don't forget Vista, which at release had a lot of problems but is a very decent OS now.

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