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AppGameKit Classic Chat / MP3 Licensing

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Naphier
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 19:31
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The constant question of "do I need a license" to distribute MP3 content with my game continues to reappear and be contested. So I finally decided to get direct clarification from Technicolor. Yes we need a license according to them. I've also asked New Media Rights for an outside opinion, but they typically deal more with copyright law so I'm not sure if they'll be able to help.

Here's the clear and concise email exchange between me and Technicolor:

Quote: "Dear Sean,



Thank you for contacting mp3 licensing.



If mp3 content is used within a game, our game license is required. The terms are simple:



- $2,500 per game title

- One time payment, no limit on number of copies/users, or platforms offered



If you would like to review a draft license, please send me the following information:



- Full name of company (including form of incorporation, e.g. Ltd., Inc., ...);

- Street address of company (registered headquarter);

- State/country of incorporation;

- Name, email address, and title of contact person for this agreement;

- Phone and fax numbers of contact person for this agreement;

- Name and title of corporate officer who will be signing this agreement;

- Suggested effective date, which should be the first of a month as close to the release date date as possible;

- Game title.

Please let me know if you have any questions.



Thank you and best regards,





Grant Reeder

mp3 Licensing

grant.reeder@technicolor.com

www.mp3licensing.com


16935 W. Bernardo Drive, Suite 226

San Diego, CA 92127, USA

tel: +1 858 521 7600

fax: +1 317 587 9030

Help preserve the color of our world – Think before you print.





From: Sean Mann [mailto:naplandgames@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2014 5:07 PM
To: *SAND MP3 Info
Subject: quick question



There is some confusion about your site.
Do you require a license if MP3 files are included in a game? The game software does not include decoding software, just MP3 music files. The decoding is performed by the drivers on the operating system.

Thank you!
-Sean Mann
Napland Games, LLC"


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Ched80
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 19:50
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Oh dear, I'm guessing ogg isn't a viable alternative for Android?

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Naphier
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Posted: 10th Jun 2014 19:56
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M4A is definitely. I think OGG is natively supported check the Android Developer pages to be sure.

I just had to post this because every time we start a discussion about MP3 licensing quite a few people tell us that it isn't true that we need licensing to simply distribute. We do. Trying to put an end to the confusion.

I use M4A in all of my mobile games. It currently requires no license. OGG would be best for mobile as it is designed to never be subject to licensing fees. Not sure that it works on iOS though.

Windows is the problem. MP3 is really the only format we have available that is natively supported without the download of codecs. So we just need to include codecs in our Windows game installations to be sure they can play M4A or OGG.

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xCept
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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 06:42
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Paul should really, really consider adding support for WMA audio to remedy the MP3 licensing fiasco and non-native alternative codecs in Windows apps. When I made games with DBP I would always use WMA for the music and it worked beautifully with decent file size to quality ratio.

It's sad that so many game making kits favor MP3 over other formats when legally all users are supposed to pay an incredibly high $2,500 per title just for including such media.
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Naphier
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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 07:53
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WMA would do it. They are bigger than MP3 and M4A, but disk space is really cheap on PCs so it isn't nearly as much of a concern. T2 programmers could probably use WMA. I'm not sure the solution for Mac, though. I imagine that M4A is supported, but not sure.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 09:42 Edited at: 11th Jun 2014 09:50
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Another solution is to use MP2 audio (MPEG-1 Layer 2). This format is out of patents and completely licence-free. I've attached an example. I have tried this in AppGameKit for Windows only, and it works fine. Maybe somebody could test on Android and iOS. This is stereo at a bit-rate of 96, 44100 s/sec.

Audacity will convert tracks to .mp2.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?

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Naphier
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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 09:49
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M4A works fine on iOS and Android (Audactiy will also make these). Natively supported
So it's really just windows and mac that might be the problem.
It never crossed my mind to think of mp2
I'll have to give it a go on my barebones PC with no codecs installed and try it out on my Mac sometime. Seems like since the MPEG codec is already in Windows it should be fine, but never know.
Thanks for the tip.

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Van B
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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 09:57
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I think they must have changed the policy at some point, what they are doing now is just rediculous. I wonder if it's because the patent is expiring... hmmmm.

I did find a post from a MS employee on it, saying that DirectShow was already licensed, so if you play through that your golden - but that was from over 10 years ago. I also found a post saying that you can't legally patent an algorithm in the UK.

It does raise a whole bunch of awkward questions - like what about all those games we made with MP3s and no license!
I guess it's a good reason to go with a publisher, let them worry about all this stuff!

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 11th Jun 2014 10:00
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I would use conditional defines for the different platforms, with different media files loaded.

mp2 should work out-of-the box on Windows XP or later.

Tip: Joint Stereo doesn't work correctly.

Tip: On Windows at least changing the file extension to .MP3 still plays correctly. This might work okay on the other platforms. So if you did this and got sued you simply point out that it's not really an .MP3 file.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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kaband
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 02:00
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Not sure if this is of any help, but I was checking out the mp3licensing FAQ and found this answer to be interesting:

4) Do I need a license to stream mp3 encoded content over the Internet?
Yes. A license is needed for commercial (i.e., revenue-generating) use of mp3 in broadcast systems (terrestrial, satellite, cable and/or other distribution channels), streaming applications (via Internet, intranets and/or other networks), other content distribution systems (pay-audio or audio-on-demand applications and the like) or for use of mp3 on physical media (compact discs, digital versatile discs, semiconductor chips, hard drives, memory cards and the like).

However, no license is needed for private, non-commercial activities (e.g., home-entertainment, receiving broadcasts and creating a personal music library), not generating revenue or other consideration of any kind or for entities with associated annual gross revenue less than US$ 100 000.00.

It is worded a bit oddly, but it seems to me that unless your game/app company is grossing $100k or more then no license is required. If you aren't grossing $100k or more annually it might be worth asking if you do in fact need to purchase a license.
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Naphier
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 02:36
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Good catch. I'll check with them and let you know what they say.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 08:58
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Isn't that just for streaming? Like an Internet radio?

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Naphier
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 08:59
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Yes, but FAQ #5 for distribution has the same vague clause.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 09:35
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In their FAQ games are listed separately from streaming and distribution of content.

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Naphier
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 09:46
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You mean in the royalties section? I don't see anything mentioned about games in the FAQ page.

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xCept
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 17:32
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From their Games page:

Interactive software products intended to interact with a user for entertainment (action, role play, strategy, adventure, simulations, racing, sports, arcade, card and board games) and/or education, that may be published for multiple machines, platforms or media.

Running Royalty

mp3PRO - US$ 3,750.00 per title
mp3 - US$ 2,500.00 per title

Note: No license fees are due if less than 5,000 copies of a particular game title are distributed.

------

Now, has there ever been any documented cases where the MP3 lawyers have actually sued someone for not paying this fee?
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Van B
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 17:55
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I'd be interested in that, personally I don't believe that they can enforce everything they try to - I mean there are laws governing what patent licenses cover, how far they extend, and how they relate to distribution, how they can even proove distribution figures.

For example, Bruce - a game I made as part of a newsletter feature, it uses an MP3 file for the title music. So who is liable for the license fee for that? - how would they proove that >5000 copies had been distributed?, what if the name changes every 4999 copies?

I'd bet that a lot of cases like that get thrown out. I'm sure it would cost them more to sue me than they'd ever get back. Surely they can't seriously expect free software to adhere to their license. If they do, then hell I'm probably owing them $20,000 already - they're probably due millions in license fees if that's the case.

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Naphier
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 21:18
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Unfortunately...

Hello Sean,

Quote: "

Yes. The $100,000 revenue exception only applies to mp3 content distribution (not in the context of a game), not to game licenses or any other mp3 licenses. There is a 5,000 copy exception: if you sell/distribute less than 5,000 copies, you do not need to pay the license fee, but you would need to be licensed. Is there a possibility you may not release 5,000 copies (or have 5,000 users) of the game?



Grant Reeder

mp3 Licensing

grant.reeder@technicolor.com

www.mp3licensing.com

cid:image001.jpg@01CF5308.4F59C240
16935 W. Bernardo Drive, Suite 226

San Diego, CA 92127, USA

tel: +1 858 521 7600

fax: +1 317 587 9030



CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail contains information that is privileged, confidential, and/or subject to legal restrictions and penalties regarding its unauthorized disclosure or other use. You are prohibited from copying, distributing, or otherwise using this information if you are not the intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail and delete this email and all attachments from your system. Thank you.



cid:image002.jpg@01CF5308.4F59C240


Help preserve the color of our world – Think before you print.





From: Sean Mann [mailto:naplandgames@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2014 4:35 PM
To: Reeder Grant
Subject: Re: [Napland Games] quick question



Hi Grant. Do we still need to pay for a license if we gross less than $100k annually?"



Here's the thing:
Will they sue you? Depends on how much you make. If you distribute 5,000 copies of your free game you probably go to the bottom of a pile. If you distribute 500,000 you're probably going to get a letter. Technicolor stinks, but if you created an ingenious file format you'd want to make money off of its use too.
Will they win? Probably, they have well paid lawyers and rightful claim. You don't.
Should you use MP3? On mobile - hell no use M4A it works and so far has no licensing fees for just use of the format. On desktop - it appears we have MP2 that can be used, also you can use other formats if you accompany your installation with one of the many GNU licensed codecs.
Should you risk using MP3? Why? Would you use Super Mario Bros. theme song? If you know of the risk and can avoid it then to not do so is a little crazy. It's sort of like not wearing a seatbelt.

My goal here was to provide information on MP3 licensing so that we really know what Technicolor's policy is. Now we know. We know of alternatives, too! Don't use MP3 and run the risk of ruining success.

@VanB - any chance we can get this stickied so that future generations can find this information? I'd love to also continue to discuss how to make an installer for Windows that includes installation of codecs for M4A or OGG (preferably OGG becuase they are committed to not making folks pay licensing for the format's use).

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SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 22:54 Edited at: 13th Jun 2014 22:58
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well i guess im good then. I didnt sell no 5000 copies of nothing... so im not going to worry about it till it happens.

and if it happens then i will look at m4a as you suggested



hey?? what about if you only generate ad-mob money?

those should not count as sales..... that and your game is free. just with ads

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 23:10
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Naphier:
Have you tried MP2 without codecs yet?

SM3D
They also use the word distribute.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 23:50
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Quote: "hey?? what about if you only generate ad-mob money?"


It still attributes to Revenue from that game... just another business model...

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SoftMotion3D
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Posted: 13th Jun 2014 23:59 Edited at: 14th Jun 2014 00:10
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humm... im going to look into mp2 aswell

edit: ok are we sure mp2 is fine... im about to buy an encoder for 35$ if its good on all devices. looks like the file size is still fairly small and the format sounds good.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 14th Jun 2014 01:13
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mp2 is definitely clear of patent rights and should work on all platforms. I haven't got time to test on Android/iOS, but I've posted a test file, so surely somebody can do that!

In any case, I doubt if Technicolor/Fraunhofer care if you use mp3 in your Indie game. It's not worth their lawyers' time. If you're producing a multi-million dollar AAA game with a high profile they might take a look - but they mostly use Ogg for that reason.

How you register the Ogg Vorbis stuff depends on the playback software. If AppGameKit on Windows uses the DirectShow subsystem for audio then it's easy to add and register .ax filters using a decent installer.

Why pay for an encoder? Audacity is free and does it all.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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Naphier
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Posted: 14th Jun 2014 01:15
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Ya don't pay for encoder! Audactiy works great!

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SoftMotion3D
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ok thanks... i will check it out.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Jun 2014 10:25
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So have anyone tested that MP2 works fine in AppGameKit without any codecs installed? Both of my PCs have codec packs installed so I can't test it.

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MrValentine
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Posted: 17th Jun 2014 17:11 Edited at: 17th Jun 2014 17:12
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I do not have an mp2 encoder but what about AIFF I have that, or FLAC? [Thought large haha]

I also have:

.aif
.aac
.ac3
.flac
.m4a
.m4b [audiobook for iTunes]
.mp3
.ogg
.wav/IMA ADPCM [Compression]
.wma


Maybe we should make a list of supported formats?

EDIT

Forgot to add .aif [AIFF]

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 17th Jun 2014 17:53
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Quote: " Maybe we should make a list of supported formats?"


The idea is to use a format or a combination of formats that are license free and doesn't require any codecs to be installed. We know that m4a can be used on mobile devices but not on PC without a codec.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 18th Jun 2014 00:12
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Quote: "I do not have an mp2 encoder"


Audacity is free and does a very good job.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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baxslash
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Posted: 18th Jun 2014 18:15
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Quote: "So have anyone tested that MP2 works fine in AppGameKit without any codecs installed? Both of my PCs have codec packs installed so I can't test it."

I tested mp2 created in audacity and it worked fine on windows.
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Kenjar
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Posted: 18th Jun 2014 18:44 Edited at: 18th Jun 2014 18:45
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The last time I checked this it only applied if you sold more than 4,999 copies of your title. I've been deploying MP4 ACC on iOS, and OGG on Android without any issues. They tend to be lossless and smaller than say a studio quaility 320k mp3 file anyway.

I just wish wav files could be compressed in AppGameKit because they get pretty big when you start adding speech to your product.
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 18th Jun 2014 19:27
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Quote: "I tested mp2 created in audacity and it worked fine on windows. "

Great! I'll be doing that for my music then.

Quote: "The last time I checked this it only applied if you sold more than 4,999 copies of your title."

It's copies distributed, not sold. And yeah, the problem is only on Windows since it doesn't have support for M4A out of the box.

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Kenjar
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Posted: 18th Jun 2014 20:14
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That's no problem then, sell 4,999 copies (don't distribute them any other way!) at $1 each and you're still $2,499 in profit.
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Digital Awakening
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Quote: "That's no problem then, sell 4,999 copies (don't distribute them any other way!) at $1 each and you're still $2,499 in profit. "


That is out of the question, I'll be releasing the Alpha of Rush to Adventure as a free download for anyone interested.

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swissolo
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2014 07:50
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um Naphier - from the last email you posted

Quote: "CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail contains information that is privileged, confidential, and/or subject to legal restrictions and penalties regarding its unauthorized disclosure or other use. You are prohibited from copying, distributing, or otherwise using this information if you are not the intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately by return e-mail and delete this email and all attachments from your system. Thank you."


I guess they don't want people to know about the 5000 copy minimum

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2014 09:02
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swissolo
That's pretty much standard for all companies in all their mail.

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swissolo
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Quote: "swissolo
That's pretty much standard for all companies in all their mail."

I just found it rather comical in the scope of the discussion

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Markus
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Posted: 22nd Jun 2014 10:43 Edited at: 22nd Jun 2014 10:50
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today i read about.
it seems only the software that creates the mp3 file needs a licencse.
so if u use software with extra game license,self fault.
(and if someone request money from me i will change to .ogg format.)
and something about LAME:
Quote: "
6. Does LAME use any MP3 patented technology?

LAME, as the name says, is *not* an encoder. LAME is a development
project which uses the open source model to improve MP3 technology.
Many people believe that compiling this code and distributing an
encoder which uses this code would violate some patents (in the US,
Europe and Japan). However, *only* a patent lawyer is qualified to
make this determination. The LAME project tries to avoid all these
legal issues by only releasing source code, much like the ISO
distributes MP3 "demonstration" source code. Source code is
considered as speech, which may contain descriptions of patented
technology. Descriptions of patents are in the public
domain.

Several companies plan on releasing encoders based on LAME, and
they intend to obtain all the appropriate patent licenses. At least
one company is now shipping a fully licensed version of LAME with
their portable MP3 player.

Note that under German Patent Law, §11(1) a patent doesn't cover
private acts with non-industrial purposes. Probably interesting for
developers is that a patent doesn't cover acts with experimental
purposes, that aim at the object of the patented invention (§11(2)).
"


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Naphier
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2014 09:07
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@swissolo - the 5,000 minimum is clearly displayed on their website. The point of the email was to get clarification about the ambiguously worded $100,000 minimum clause in their FAQ.

@Markus - this entire discussion is about distribution of MP3 files, not encoders/decoders. AppGameKit does not distribute a decoder and communicates with the native hardware decoders on a system. The thread is to clarify that, indeed you do need a license from Technicolor to distribute MP3 files if your game sells or distributes more than 5,000 copies. On Android and iOS M4A is an unlicensed format and works well (maybe better than MP3) - I also suspect this is the case for Mac, but I've yet to test (and no one seems to care to distribute to Mac...). On Windows it appears that MP2 files are an unlicensed, viable alternative to MP3.

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Markus
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2014 09:30
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@Naphier,
ok, i will read more about.

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JimHawkins
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2014 09:46
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mp2 files are viable on all platforms.

-- Jim - When is there going to be a release?
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TDavid
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I settled for 16 bits 16 khz wave files for sounds. They don't sound too blurry and are a lot smaller than 44 khz files. I tried with 8 bits wave at first but they're horrible.

Compressing to MP2 decreases the size of my sound files by 39% and they still sound good.
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baxslash
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2014 13:41
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If AppGameKit does not decode the mp3 directly then how is it that we need to pay the fee? Surely the operating system is decoding not the app?

Are you sure that's what's happening Naphier?

Not that I care, I just won't use mp3 EVER again. What's the point? They are killing their own product as far as I can tell...
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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2014 17:08 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2014 20:47
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I just tried MP2 in RTA and it works with 1 track. As soon as another starts it crashes. Anyone else who have tried this?

Nevermind. I forgot one track is loaded in the beginning of the code. AppGameKit sometimes crashes when switching between music formats. So going from an m4a file to an mp2 file caused the crash.

There is a drop in quality between mp3/m4a and mp2. It's not very nice.

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Digital Awakening
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2014 21:01 Edited at: 23rd Jun 2014 21:02
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Converted my 128kb/s MP3 files into 160kb/s MP2 and that managed to retain most of the quality. And runs in AppGameKit, I know it has problems with MP3s with bitrates higher than 128. The files are larger but that seems like the best solution for PC.

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swissolo
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Posted: 23rd Jun 2014 21:35
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Quote: "the 5,000 minimum is clearly displayed on their website. The point of the email was to get clarification about the ambiguously worded $100,000 minimum clause in their FAQ."

Ah alright. I had not visited their website.

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Van B
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Posted: 30th Jun 2014 18:02
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Baxslash, I have the same argument - with the MP3 license, not with anyone in particular!
I emailed them long long ago and they admitted that Microsoft already paid the license fee for MP3, otherwise they couldn't distribute DirectPlay - so they already paid, and now our software plays through DirectPlay and we are expected to pay again!

Personally, I don't think the license holders have a leg to stand on - you can't even protect an algorithm in the UK with a patent, so the license for it in the UK at least is pretty much worthless. I'm sure it would be quite easy to beat a court case with any reasonably astute patent lawyer as back up.

Just picking holes again but...

* How do they know you've distributed >5000 copies - I can't say for sure how many copies of my games are distributed, heck I'm due them an absolute fortune if I believe everything on their site.

* How can they ever hope to win a case of free software violating their license!, no judge would touch it with a barge pole. No income = no court case. A game would have to be big and profitable before they'd ever raise an eyebrow.

* How can they charge for a license to distribute an algorithm that you don't distribute! - what part of an AppGameKit app has all the MP3 replay code? - DirectPlay?, OpenAL, whatever - we don't distribute, it's not our responsibility, and the license has already been paid for. The crux of the matter is the fact that we don't distribute the algorithm, so what is the license for!

But we have to remember, patent's don't last forever, the MP3 license patent will expire in a couple of years I'm sure, so the holders are just trying to maximize their reach. We consider what the heck we are supposed to do... well I'm not changing anything other than taking the advise posted here and just avoid using MP3 wherever possible in new projects. I would love a face to face with a patent lawyer though, I might not necesserily win, but I'd have the most limbs left by the end of it.

I am the one who knocks...
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MrValentine
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Posted: 30th Jun 2014 18:54
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Out of curiosity, how would they look for the codec being used?

Extension .mp3?

Or file data reading for codec?

DBPro can load some files without their extensions...

Just a thought...



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Naphier
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Posted: 1st Jul 2014 01:25
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I'm sure they run the packages through a program that scans the files contained for MP3 headers (a little more complex than that for MP3). With IPA and APK files they are just ZIP files. The IPA has an APP file in it that can easily be read on a Mac (right-click and Show Package Contents).

The licensing for MP3 file distribution in my mind is a complete sack of bull. I don't see any court cases where they have won or lost against people who have distributed MP3 files. Also, if you think about how many games there are out there, I guaranty that Technicolor has a backlog of apps to check that huge.

So, yeah, you've probably got about as much of a chance getting struck by lightning than you do getting sued by Technicolor, but you won't see me standing with metal rod in my hand during a storm

Napland Games - Shape Time - Wordspionage - dFenz Facebook
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MrValentine
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Posted: 1st Jul 2014 01:36
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http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/probability.html

Quote: "Odds = 1 : 280,000 of being struck by lightning "


I feel bad for the probability for our U.S.A members...



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