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AppGameKit Classic Chat / AGK as an educational tool

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JohnStabler
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 10:51
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One of the reasons I got in to programming was because of the simplicity and easily accessible BASIC languages on 8-bit microcomputers.

AGK really has that same accessibility and users are able to quickly get results from a few lines of code. But at the same time there's plenty of scope to teach basics such as logic, data structures, algorithms etc

I'm going to be volunteering to teach primary school kids programming as part of after-school activities. What are the chances of getting some special educational licenses?
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BatVink
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 11:28
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This is a topic close to my heart, so I'll braindump my latest thoughts in case any of it helps you...

I know that Rick has gone into schools and used AppGameKit before as part of the UK Creative Curriculum. They had a pre-defined game and the children put their artwork into the game. They also used to do educational licenses for DBPro.

It's something I've wanted to do but haven't had the time (I'm a school governor of a primary school). Perhaps if there was enough interest we could create a package to use in schools as a collective. It is part of the curriculum for primary schools now, and I think it would be good for TGC to target this market (if they had the time!). It's an audience of future users of AppGameKit!

I have a set of basic tutorials for DBPro that could be converted, but I think you also need something engaging to keep the children interested. You'd probably need a completed game at the very start. As you introduce new concepts, you show how they can be used to change the game, without having to understand all of the code.

I'll point Rick in the direction of this thread, although with the launch of GameGuru it's not going to be high on the list of priorities.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
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AlistairS
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 11:43
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I am in the process of producing a "Computer Programming for School Teachers" book which makes use of AppGameKit BASIC. It does not attempt to teach every aspect of AppGameKit but rather concentrates on the basics with enough graphics, sound and animation to make things more interesting.

The book also covers some of the basic ideas of computer science such as stepwise refinement, function design and documentation, testing methods, sorting and searching. In addition there will be supporting software - mostly animating various concepts described in the book.

This is not a book for the pupils but rather, as the title suggests, for the teachers, so that they feel they have enough background knowledge to teach the subject with confidence.

Hopefully, the book should be complete by the end of March.
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Van B
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 11:49
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I think it would be awesome if TGC just decided to make AGKv1 free - or use it as an advertising vehicle for Game Guru, AGKv2, and FPSC:R.

My nephew has been asking about it since he sees me using AGKv2 through Steam, and I think it would be great to get him AGKv1 and Daniels book and let him have a crack at it (with help from me of course).

We have to ask where the next generation of programmers are gonna come from, and it sure as hell isn't that digital eagles thing we see advertised - yeah changing the number of shapes on a screen is programming

TGC are in a prime position right now, I think that AGKv1 is an awesome language that is gonna be left behind anyway - why not get people using it - especially if they can see that they can migrate onto AGK2, or broaden their 3D horizons with Game Guru and FPSC:R.

I am the one who knocks...
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JohnStabler
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 11:53
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Thanks for the replies.

I'd be happy to contribute to any teaching materials that may be crowd-sourced.
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Jambo B
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 13:05
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I'm a primary deputy head and Computing subject leader, in addition to my dodgy* sideline software company!

I'm massively into teaching the kids programming. Our lot are now pretty good at Scratch, and I'm running some training sessions for the staff to teach them how to teach it.

I have bought AGK2 for all the computers at school! Going to try it with the year 6s this term.

The keys to getting ANY programming language working in a school are:

1. Make sure the staff are reasonably confident to teach it. If the staff enjoy it too, they're much more likely to enthuse the kids.

2. With the kids, don't try to teach too much too quickly. They need time to let the basics sink in (which seem second nature to us as programmers!)

3. The kids will lose interest if they're given rubbish tasks to do ("Make a program to draw a square" - yawn). They need either a real-world problem to solve or a simple game to make.

4. Have game assets/media ready for the kids to use, to create games. If it looks/sounds good, they'll be more likely to go with it and spend some of their breaktimes coding (many of my lot do!) If the media is not there, the kids will try to create it themselves, which they're possibly not very good at. They'll perceive this as a rubbish game and lose heart. Also - you want them to spend time learning to code, not make assets!

5. Design tasks which are good for teaching specific programming ideas or objectives.

6. Initially, they will struggle and you'll be all over the computer suite. Encourage them to help each other and experiment!

7. Teach versioning so they can go back to a working version of their code when they inevitably mess it up.

If I think of any more, I'll post!

Cheers

James

p.s. *Company is in no way dodgy!
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JohnStabler
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 13:24 Edited at: 13th Feb 2015 13:24
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And also it looks like the Raspberry Pi 2 will be getting Windows 10.

http://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2015/02/02/windows-10-coming-to-raspberry-pi-2/

Does that mean we could see AppGameKit development / gaming on the Pi?
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BatVink
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 14:35
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It's more likely you could use AppGameKit for Linux on the Raspberry Pi. Windows 10 will cannibalise the 1GB of memory, with not much left to play with.

I have it on my shopping list, as soon as someone posts that they have succeeded.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
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JohnStabler
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 15:10
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I have a Pi 2 arriving next week. It'll be the first thing I'll do, if nobody else has.
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SpecTre
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 15:32
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Will look forward to see your result with that, I have yet to buy the Pi2 but my lad keeps mithering for it as we have the one before it.

We have been using Python with it and also been doing a bit of C with the Arduino. He is interested in C++ but is not ready for the leap yet although is getting quite good as he is 15.
I have been teaching him a bit of AGK2 which he is enjoying and the good thing is that this can lead onto C++ quite easily with tier 2 so will help with that too.

I agree with the part with having to make things interesting so the kids don't get bored.
We did a night about arrays a while back and I got some graph paper and coloured pencils and we designed some basic retro style graphics and then converted the co-ordinates of the pixels into 2D arrays and got the result displayed on the screen and then went on to animate them. It was all simple stuff but wasn't boring because it then lead onto displaying tiles onto the screen for a game level and then moving a character on the level!
The good thing is that if the kids are into Art too they get a buzz from seeing their own graphics on the screen so sometimes it is good to create your own assets if time is on your side, eg at home and not in the class room.

Programming - AMOS on the AMIGA! / DBPro / Python / A bit of C C++ / now also AGK2! - Graphics - Deluxe Paint on the Amiga / Paintshop Pro / Photoshop / Lightroom / Grafx2
Previously worked for Prisma Software producing childrens educational software on the Amiga - Titles - Pepe's Garden - Paint Pot / Kids Academy range - Paint Pot II / Shopping Basket / Which Where What? / Blobs / Alvin's Puzzles
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BatVink
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 15:41
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@JamboB, you have some good advice there.
@JohnStabler - I'm not jealous, really

Quote: "we designed some basic retro style graphics and then converted the co-ordinates of the pixels into 2D arrays and got the result displayed on the screen "

That's a good idea for teaching arrays because it is visual. Noted for future use!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
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JohnStabler
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 15:52
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My original idea was to build a simple version of Space Taxi.

Arrays would be tackled when we designed a level and needed to represent the block data.

I would engage the kids who liked generating content by asking them to create different taxis / passengers. While they're tinkering / playing I can scan / gimp anything they produce to create sprites.
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paulrobson
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 20:07
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Quote: "They had a pre-defined game and the children put their artwork into the game."


A component/pre-built type approach is much better than coding from scratch. Even with AGK2 you need to write a fair amount to get something going. This kind of idea (changing artwork) works quite well (I'm a qualified teacher of Comp Sci, retired, so I'm in for helping with any project like this).

When we had BBCs (yes I am that old) I did something similar in BBC Basic - initially the game was all square blocks, a very simple shoot em up - children could do graphics, sound effects, add a score, add a star field effect and so on so in the end it looked quite decent. What happened was that everyone enjoyed it at different levels of ability. The lesser able just enjoyed 'creating their game', the more able could take it as far as you wanted to go.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 22:10
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Wise words, Paul.

AGK is crying out for a component model like Delphi's.

Onwards and sometimes upwards
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Shock
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Posted: 13th Feb 2015 23:18
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I work in lots of Primary Schools around Yorkshire, supporting their IT setup.

They're all at completely different levels, it's quite amazing really. One Primary has only just begun to use Scratch (basically just because the curriculum says they have to) on their ancient 32bit celerons. Less than a mile away, there's another primary that have completely embraced Python, and have rooms full of Core i7's that get completely hammered.

Microsoft Kodu is really good, keeps the kids entertained for hours, definitely a good one to use if you have the hardware resources available.
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xCept
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Posted: 14th Feb 2015 00:30
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AGK would be my top choice for teaching students programming at both beginner and advanced levels. Tier 1 BASIC would ease students into the fundamentals of all programming, and Tier 2 exists for tying into C++ lessons. Best of all, they would be creating usable, cross-platform apps along the way.

In high school I went through all three programming courses offered and it was a total bore. The beginning course used VB 6.0 with all apps being very tedious and repetitive, with the end result being a simple calculator. The advanced course was C++ command line, which at the end students were only able to input/output to the terminal. The AP course was console-based Java.

The instructors did no such instructing as they were new to programming themselves, instead we just got huge books to read through. I wound up using DB/DBP in Advanced and AP more than anything else out of sheer boredom with the rest of the coursework. I myself would LOVE to teach AppGameKit to students, given the opportunity. I think it'd do wonders to create enthusiasm on the subject versus what is out there currently.
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Jambo B
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Posted: 15th Feb 2015 00:05
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spectrepaul wrote:

Quote: "The good thing is that if the kids are into Art too they get a buzz from seeing their own graphics on the screen so sometimes it is good to create your own assets if time is on your side, eg at home and not in the class room."


Yep, I absolutely agree. The programs my kids are working on at the moment contain graphics drawn by themselves and modified from the graphics which I have supplied them with.

One advantage to this is that you can get kids into programming 'teams' - some create the gfx, some create the sounds, then they have 1hr 30 mins to make a simple game, or something. That gets them going from a teamwork perspective.

They also learn about different filetypes (e.g. png vs jpg - one supports transparency, one has better compression, etc.)

Of course the thing we really want the kids to be doing is learning to code, which is why I suggested providing the assets initially. Once they have the basic skills - and once they've got the programming 'bug' - I agree with spectrepaul: let them loose on the art, the music, the sounds, etc. etc. etc.

Got to say, I love teaching the kids to code - it's the highlight of my week!

Cheers,

James
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 15th Feb 2015 01:00
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Quote: "I know that Rick has gone into schools and used AppGameKit before as part of the UK Creative Curriculum. They had a pre-defined game and the children put their artwork into the game."

I didn't know that.
And there I was thinking I had a brain storm about the coloring books.

Quote: "It's something I've wanted to do but haven't had the time (I'm a school governor of a primary school). Perhaps if there was enough interest we could create a package to use in schools as a collective. It is part of the curriculum for primary schools now, and I think it would be good for TGC to target this market (if they had the time!). It's an audience of future users of AppGameKit! "

Agree 100%

Quote: "AGK would be my top choice for teaching students programming at both beginner and advanced levels. Tier 1 BASIC would ease students into the fundamentals of all programming, and Tier 2 exists for tying into C++ lessons. Best of all, they would be creating usable, cross-platform apps along the way."

Agree 100% there too.

I currently have a WIP for an elementary math app that is intended to help kids improve basic math skills in preparation of the SOLs.
AGK can be used for lots of educational purposes besides teaching programming.
Education is a safe play for AppGameKit, and AppGameKit is a perfect tool for the children.


Coding things my way since 1981 -- Currently using AppGameKit V2 Tier 1
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paulrobson
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Posted: 15th Feb 2015 09:18
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The last time I looked at the school curriculum, a fair few of the requirements for coding looked like they were designed with BASIC in mind (having been an exam board rep. they were probably copied and modified from old ones when Computing was a more common O-Level/GCSE).

This gives us a huge advantage over things like Python. Not that I don't love Python, but you've got events and all that sort of gubbins whereas AGK2 is more sequential. - Move Sprite - Has it hit a bullet - If so explode rather than defining event handlers for collisions which is a bit challenging at 14 for quite a few.
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JimHawkins
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Posted: 15th Feb 2015 10:09
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That's an interesting thought. But it's certainly a lot simpler to use an OnClicked() method for a button than parsing all the gadgets in a main loop. Scratch handles the mixture of visual design and actions quite elegantly. What it does teach is structure first and finer adjustments later.

Onwards and sometimes upwards
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 02:43 Edited at: 16th Feb 2015 02:44
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Quote: "The last time I looked at the school curriculum, a fair few of the requirements for coding looked like they were designed with BASIC in mind..."

They should imo, as BASIC is the best way for a beginner to understand the commands.

Quote: "This gives us a huge advantage over things like Python. Not that I don't love Python, but you've got events and all that sort of gubbins whereas AGK2 is more sequential."

Again, easy to understand.
sequential = step by step

The booklet that came with my Vic-20 was the best introduction to BASIC programming that I can remember for that time. It was simple. It was easy to understand. It was BASIC explained so a 12 year old could jump right in with no prior knowledge of computers. It was a happy time for me, and using AGK's tier 1 brings all those memories back!
BASIC will always be the best choice for beginning programmers. (IMO)


Coding things my way since 1981 -- Currently using AppGameKit V2 Tier 1
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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 11:59
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At the lowest level (for standard programming), we all use procedural routines, so BASIC is a good place for everyone to start. It's also good to let beginners know where they could be headed, so they can start to think about how "self-contained procedural packets" could be interacting with and affecting one another.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
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SpecTre
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 14:03
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My lads school have been using Small Basic which I hate, however it has a few good commands in the language to create buttons and text boxes which might be useful to put into AppGameKit at some point for educational usage.
An easier way to make a GUI for your apps you create, takes some of the hard work away from the kids from having to design apps and might be handy for all of us

Programming - AMOS on the AMIGA! / DBPro / Python / A bit of C C++ / now also AGK2! - Graphics - Deluxe Paint on the Amiga / Paintshop Pro / Photoshop / Lightroom / Grafx2
Previously worked for Prisma Software producing childrens educational software on the Amiga - Titles - Pepe's Garden - Paint Pot / Kids Academy range - Paint Pot II / Shopping Basket / Which Where What? / Blobs / Alvin's Puzzles
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 14:25
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Quote: "My lads school have been using Small Basic which I hate, however it has a few good commands in the language to create buttons and text boxes which might be useful to put into AppGameKit at some point for educational usage.
An easier way to make a GUI for your apps you create, takes some of the hard work away from the kids from having to design apps and might be handy for all of us"

lol a GUI to make GUIs
Yeah, that wouldn't be much different from the level editor that is included.
Just a tool for selecting the type of control, and placing the buttons, sliders, etc ., and maybe assigning up and down images.
Then, the only thing left for them would be coding the functionality.
I think we can make a tool like that though as a community, and leave Paul/AGK to the stuff we can't handle on our own.

It may be better for the kids to learn this process as well though, and that would actually make a great example program to start with, as it could be used as a tool for the rest of the course.


Coding things my way since 1981 -- Currently using AppGameKit V2 Tier 1
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 14:57 Edited at: 16th Feb 2015 15:45
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Well I think your best chances in teaching involve getting the required degrees.I think that it is good to build apps but there are way to many apps out their that do not earn anything. I think that maybe a programming degree know days will only help you get enough credentials to teach. I will be going back to school because I earn a lot more money being a professional student. I earn nothing making apps, and 2,300 a month going to school. Eventually education will give you enough credentials to earn a something for your efforts. I plan to get another masters degree because I am not earning enough right know, and I also get more money being a student then being a teacher also.

The only reason why I am a student is to get paid by the military to take the course. I think that if I can not get a job with 2 master degrees than I am not looking at jobs hard enough. Making apps in OK if your earning more money, but it will not get you the education that you need to become a teacher. If your not earning anything developing games then I suggest getting credentials to teach.

Most of the programmers here on these boards I think would obtain easy A's in subjects like math, and computer science. Most people here could also obtain a masters in computer science with what I have seen in the showcase.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 15:50
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In the UK, we have a "Creative Curriculum".
This is designed to employ industry professionals to come in and educate the children in primary schools. These are not classroom teachers, they work alongside the qualified teachers, doing the things you cannot expect a teacher to have skills in. A perfect example is programming, but it also includes actors, musicians, radio technicians and many other things.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
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3d point in space
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I thought the UK had education institutions as well. I might be wrong about getting education, but in the us that is what people what to see when they higher a new teacher.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
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BatVink
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 16:12
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For a new teacher, yes. It's a very structured approach, with many qualifications for different levels.

But if you want to build a school radio station and teach the children how to operate it, how to broadcast and how to interview people, you don't get a teacher to learn all of those skills on top of their teaching abilities. You get professional technicians and broadcasters to come in and teach their craft under the supervision of the teachers. The lesson program is built by professionals and teachers working together.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
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SpecTre
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 16:35
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Quote: "Just a tool for selecting the type of control, and placing the buttons, sliders, etc ., and maybe assigning up and down images.
Then, the only thing left for them would be coding the functionality."


Yes something like that would be good to help the kids along, I was thinking something much more simpler as the example they were doing in school and the reason why they most likely chose Small Basic.

They had to make an app that changed temp from Celsius to Fahrenheit and vice versa, they used a simple display with no sliders etc, just buttons and text boxes.
One command made the button the size they wanted at the place on screen with the text of choice written on the button.
The same for the text input box was a command which created an input box on screen ready to store the integer into a variable.

This took 2 lines of code and they were free to then design the app and put in the variables and conversions etc.

Oh and by the way, I know this is a boring app but schools tend to do this, choose areas which are not very interesting.

This was a mock GCSE project where they started off with flow charts, design, pseudo code, text based app and then the full app.

Programming - AMOS on the AMIGA! / DBPro / Python / A bit of C C++ / now also AGK2! - Graphics - Deluxe Paint on the Amiga / Paintshop Pro / Photoshop / Lightroom / Grafx2
Previously worked for Prisma Software producing childrens educational software on the Amiga - Titles - Pepe's Garden - Paint Pot / Kids Academy range - Paint Pot II / Shopping Basket / Which Where What? / Blobs / Alvin's Puzzles
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3d point in space
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 16:52
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tier one maybe the way to go with kids, but nothing can replace c++. The ease of use in tier one would allow kids to learn how to use it, because I have tried to teach kids c++ version of agk and they got lost. Not in the code, but how to deploy it using eclipse is where I lost them all.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
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Conjured Entertainment
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Posted: 16th Feb 2015 17:14 Edited at: 16th Feb 2015 17:24
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Quote: "Well I think your best chances in teaching involve getting the required degrees.I think that it is good to build apps but there are way to many apps out their that do not earn anything. I think that maybe a programming degree know days will only help you get enough credentials to teach. "

I am a computer programmer, not a teacher, and I have no desire to teach.
I just want to make apps that would help teachers (who are not programmers) prepare their students for the Standards Of Learning (SOL )tests.
I see too many schools in my state that are struggling or have failed at passing those tests, so I want to help the teachers and kids if I can.
It's hard to get a kid to read books, but you can barely pull them away from a computer.

Quote: "Most people here could also obtain a masters in computer science with what I have seen in the showcase."

I'm sure a lot of coders here already have a Bachelor's degree or better.


Coding things my way since 1981 -- Currently using AppGameKit V2 Tier 1
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