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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / @ TGC - THE Question - now GameGuru is released on Steam are we going to get...

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Guido Italy
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Posted: 18th Mar 2015 13:34
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I "vote" to update DBPro to "Elite" !!!!

DBPro is fantastic! , Is I'm very sorry to see that is no longer updated ...
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 18th Mar 2015 14:27
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I vote to update DBPro. .

Daniel has argued strongly for both DBPro and AppGameKit, so why not update DBPro? Many of us are still waiting for a number of promised DBPro updates to be finalised.



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Daniel TGC
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Posted: 18th Mar 2015 14:35
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Money and manpower. It will get done eventually.

There might be other reasons, I'm not a part of the development team. At the end of the day I just answer tech support.
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 18th Mar 2015 14:37
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Quote: "Money and manpower."


Yes I know.

Quote: "It will get done eventually."


You've just made my day.



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Adrian
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Posted: 18th Mar 2015 15:14
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Quote: " It's so sad seing you guys passing from great products such as darkbasic, with all the enthusiasm and efforts you have put on that, to level editors such as GameGuru, who even me I am able to program myself from scratch in a few months, modelling included. "

I could not agree more.


Quote: "Very interesting post but I will point out one point and only one Game Guru is made using DBP not AppGameKit I rest my case to that"

Says everything you need to know.

It is very disappointing that we are still waiting for updates to be finalised. The last Public Release Candidate was released 15th Apr 2011.

It is also frustrating that no one from TGC will make a statement, one way or the other, about DBPro.

Quote: " It will get done eventually."

Nearly 4 years since the last update, I don't see any indication that that is ever going to happen. How long are we supposed to wait? How long would you wait?
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GIDustin
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Posted: 18th Mar 2015 15:19 Edited at: 18th Mar 2015 15:24
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I was reading the entire GameGuru dev blog just to hear hints on how Lee is improving DBPro, from compiler speed to memory leaks he found. It was all very exciting.

I use DBPro mainly because I took the time to learn it, and the plugins that it can support greatly enhance what it is capable of. My friend owns a game store. His entire point of sale system, from customer maintenance, inventory, even operating the cash drawer, was all written by me in DarkBasic Pro. Will AppGameKit ever be able to access the windows registry? How about communicate with a device over a COM port? Create and send a document to a printer?

Everyone saw phones get smaller and smaller, and now they are getting bigger and bigger. Someday, someone will ask "Hey, what if I make this tablet really big, like 24" or so, and place it on my desk? Wouldn't that be neat!" and desktops will be popular again!

I have no interest in AppGameKit because of it's limitations. I don't want to make simple games for phones that cater to the tweens out there, even if that is where the money is. I do this for fun, and DarkBasic has always been that. The update doesn't have to be a free patch. I would gladly pay for DarkBasic Professional v2, or DarkAdvanced Pro, or however it is marketed if money is TGC's concern. Although GameGuru looks like a neat WYSIWYG FPS creator, I am definitely more interested in the software they used to create GameGuru.

BTW I am not sure if anyone else has done any testing on this, but I have a PC with the Windows 10 Tech Preview installed, and it will not let me install DX9 on it, so DBPro (and therefore GameGuru) might have a much shorter lifespan than TGC expected anyway...

Klan Kamakazee.com
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Adrian
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Posted: 18th Mar 2015 15:51
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Quote: "BTW I am not sure if anyone else has done any testing on this, but I have a PC with the Windows 10 Tech Preview installed, and it will not let me install DX9 on it"


I too have a PC with Win 10 running on it and have had problem running software made with DBPro. I was able to get it to work for a short period of time but it has since stopped working. Even simple stuff won't run any more.

I don't know if it's a Windows thing, there have been a few update downloaded automatically for it, or a DBPro thing, but it is annoying. I'm sure they will rush out a patch if it does appear to be a problem with DBPro. They did so after SP1 for Windows 7 came out.
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Gervais
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Posted: 18th Mar 2015 15:54 Edited at: 18th Mar 2015 15:55
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Like in my previous post I did not say that AppGameKit is a bad product but simply it need to mature more to get to the point where DBP is now I know that it use OPENGL for the graphics not DirectX like DBP and it would be also very important that they consider a mechanic for using plug-in

Has for DBP I know that at one point Lee did mention that all improvement he did to DBP will eventually find it way to use but he did not mention the when.

I would also be ready to pay for a reasonable price for a more advance DBP (Elite or other name) if they could push to a more advance DirectX version like 11 or 12 that would be fantastic for DBP developers and for Game Guru has well this would be a win win situation for everyone

Window 10 is coming and apparently could be a big win for Microsoft manly the upgrade will be free for everyone that has windows 7 and up this could put Direct X 12 in reach of many potential buyers
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Sph!nx
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Posted: 19th Mar 2015 14:30
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Quote: "It will get done eventually."

Yes!!

Regards Sph!nx
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Burning Feet Man
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Posted: 20th Mar 2015 02:24
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I too would be happy to pay for a DBPro update, no problems there. Hell, I'd insist on paying if I get one of these fancy forum badges to compliment my DBPro update purchase! ^_^

I think the first steps that need to be taken by TGC is to have the right feed-back medium for updating DBPro, so that it involves the community, the main DBPro user base. TGC need to know which things to fix, and also a place to where they can post their road map, a dev blog of sorts. I don't believe that these forums are best geared for such a job, so this I think should be addressed first.

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Rudolpho
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Posted: 20th Mar 2015 12:07
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Quote: "if they could push to a more advance DirectX version like 11 or 12 that would be fantastic for DBP developers and for Game Guru has well this would be a win win situation for everyone"

I am not entirely sure about going DX12 exclusive just yet.
From what I can tell this will require Windows 10 (or XBOX One), thus alienating a lot more customers than DX10 or DX11, which have commonly been rejected for not being compatible with Windows XP / older graphics cards. Of course as time passes more and more people will eventually upgrade to the more modern soft- and hardware.

Another thing about DX12 is that it's really mostly about providing the possibility to control things on a lower level, closer to the actual hardware than earlier DirectX versions. While this can potentially allow for great improvements to efficiency-critical code I am not too sure about how big an impact it would have on people developing with DBPro. One thing I'm almost certain of is that this new level of openess would mean much more complicated configurations to get things to run. Of course TGC could implement some default configurations to use with DBPro, but then the whole point of "do whatever you want yourself" that is the big deal with DX12 is essentially lost.


Just my two cents while not really being that knowledgeable about DX12 and giving up on the Windows 10 TP after but a few days on account of all this "MS sees you"-stuf carrying over from Windows 8 but apparently being less possible to turn off.

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Gervais
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Posted: 20th Mar 2015 13:14 Edited at: 20th Mar 2015 13:15
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I know that window XP have been a favorite of so many users but eventually they will have to move forward can’t live in the past for ever and DX12 is suppose to give up to 20% improvement in performance over DX11

I would admit that it could be more prudent to go for DX11 if they start working on the project now but we all know that it is not possible at this time they are all busy on other project that need to move forward before doing moves like this so they should go for DX12 when they start on this. This will give use access to better shader and larger memory if they go for 64bit just imagine the possibilities

Think of all the game that has been created with DBP so far and what we all could do with a DBP Elite 64bit with DX12 or DX11.
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Cescano
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Posted: 20th Mar 2015 18:37
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One of the things that the new version of DBpro should have is multicore support, using 1 core out of 4 is a big limitation
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Gervais
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Posted: 20th Mar 2015 22:45 Edited at: 20th Mar 2015 22:46
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This is one of the improvements for better performance that Lee want to add for Game Guru so if he is successful this may be part of the new DBP we will see….
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Van B
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 13:16
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I think AppGameKit and DBPro are 2 completely different markets. The games that people mostly make here are better suited to AppGameKit, it gives a wider scope of platforms and fast development. The bottom line is that 2D games sell, I mean games like Flappy Birds, Issac, Meat Boy etc make money and can easily be made in AppGameKit - heck we had a competition to see what Flappy Birds style games we can make, and we proved the point several times over. One of these successful 2D games that makes the developer a fortune will be written in AppGameKit before long. Look at the DTS theory test app, written in a short time in AppGameKit and kicking serious butt in the charts, consistently too. Look at Echoes - converted to AppGameKit and on Steam in absolutely no time at all. Procrastination, negativity and doubt will never put food on the table.

With DBPro it's already up against some serious competition, I think that to make a real impact, the project would have to be very impressive and be supported by industry quality media. That is outside of the realm of most DBPro users, and that isn't TGC's fault. TGC provide the tools, not the talent.
DBPro and AppGameKit are only tools, developers can pick the tool that is best suited to the project, and largely that's AGK. I have a new project in AGKv2, trying to finish Eat Drink Slay in AGKv1, and a big PC only project planned for DBPro.... if AGKv2 had memblock meshes and bone animation then I'd use that instead. We'd all like a shiny new DBPro with bug fixes and speed and more DX features, but we should accept that maybe that won't happen. The one benefit in using a language that is so old, is that modern PC's just eat it up... one cool terrain demo I did originally ran at about 30fps a few years ago, now it runs at about 500fps - it makes it a real option for a game, and it will look superb .
I mean, next time you play a PC game, stop and look at the geometry and texturing, even BF4, I know for a fact that DBPro can make terrains that look as good as that, I know that modern hardware will handle pretty much any shader or geometry complexity I can throw at it from DBPro, so is the situation really so bad?
We are in a position where the loft ideas we had years ago are completely feasible now, just because the language didn't evolve very much over that time. Try it - load up a real slow project from a while ago and re-assess DBPro, because if it's fast enough and handles shaders then I can sure as heck work around the odd bug.... heck most DBPro users are already avoiding the bugs, I think we should just carry on as normal and if TGC update DBPro then awesome, but that certainly shouldn't stop you using it.

The actual look of AppGameKit projects is not really a sensible argument for anything. I mean, whose job is it to ensure that a project looks good?, is anyone actually silly enough to judge AppGameKit based on how other peoples projects might look!. Plus, if you think all AppGameKit projects are dated looking, or ugly, or whatever, then you aren't looking enough - there are several AppGameKit projects with high media standards, but again that's all up to the developer... AppGameKit can't turn chicken crap into chicken soup.

I am the one who knocks...
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 16:40
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Agreed.



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Gervais
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 18:39
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I do agreed that both product have different target games but it would be nice that all the improvement that Lee did and do to DBP finds its way to us in the form of incremental update and eventually some advance in feature and performance would be nice

I am sure that this will be beneficial for every ones and tell us all that the development of the tool is not finish and that eventually new specific PC product are coming and I will be more than willing to pay for the improvement and new features (not for bug fix).

It is nice that AppGameKit is currently multiplatform but remember that on the other platforms the display processor are at best anemic when there are compared to what is available in current gaming PC and DBP can take advantage of them

Also in DBP it is possible to extend the language by creating plug-in this is one of the thing that is missing they should be thinking of a way to do this. This was one of the point that make DBP a success in the past AppGameKit should be leaning from this not forget about it. I know that the programmers are working very hard on the project but they are limited by time and number if a plug-in system was in place then they could spread the load to other member of the community like the terrain system from Blitzwerks, DrakNet and all the others the language could profit greatly from this
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Sph!nx
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Posted: 25th Mar 2015 20:30
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Agreed. DBP is a great product. Hope it does receive an update so it keeps being a great product in the future.

Regards Sph!nx
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Cescano
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 02:04
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Yes it is a good product now, but it needs updates to keep being a good product, otherwise it will be outdated with the time and will turn into an obsolete tool, and I really don't want to study a new Language to make games, because that means at least 1 year without making any
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Guido Italy
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 11:39
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Do not let die DarkBasicPro!

Do not let die DarkBasicPro!

Me and my team with DBPro +  a part of the C #

we are creating a great project!
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Adrian
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 15:22
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Quote: "The games that people mostly make here are better suited to AGK"

Are you reading the same thread that I am?
I think most of the replies here are asking for an improved DBPro rather than AppGameKit because they want to make games or programs in DBPro, not AGK. AppGameKit is way behind what DBPro is capable of.

I think it's great that the DTS driving app is doing well in the charts. I don't see how you can expand on that very much though. It's not something that I would want to write, and I'm sure there are other languages out there that would be just as good for this type of app.

I agree that if you want to make another Flappy Birds clone (and there are literally hundreds out there) then yes, AppGameKit will do that for you easily in an afternoon, but if you want to make a "serious" 3D game then it really has to be DBPro.

I'm not knocking AppGameKit, I just want a better, more up-to-date version of DBPro. If I can't have that, I would like a definitive answer from someone in TGC staff who can say one way or the other that it will, or will not happen. It's not a lot to ask for.

When we get the "it might happen, someday, maybe, if the stars align, get a version after Lee has finished the latest greatest Flappy Bird simulator construction kit builder ever, he might get around to it, perhaps - it's not helpful.

So come on TGC - will we get ever get an upgrade, and when will it happen.


Quote: " I can sure as heck work around the odd bug.... heck most DBPro users are already avoiding the bugs"

You have no choice really. You either work around it or forget it.
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to build an advanced terrain where two edges of it arn't invisible. Yes I can work around it, but it probably wouldn't take too long to fix it properly, once and for all.

I guess I'm trying to say that as a DBPro user, I feel like we're being abandoned for a system more useful to people making simple 2D games for telephones, rather than complex 3D games on a PC

/rant
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Van B
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 17:17 Edited at: 26th Mar 2015 17:26
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Quote: "I'm not knocking AppGameKit, I just want a better, more up-to-date version of DBPro. If I can't have that, I would like a definitive answer from someone in TGC staff who can say one way or the other that it will, or will not happen. It's not a lot to ask for."


Really, you can't be waiting on a new version of DBPro because it most likely will never happen, and you just won't get a solid statement from TGC about something they don't intend to ever happen!
They'll continue to want to push out an update to us, but things will continue to get in the way. We can't just sit and wait and hope and procrastinate, if DBPro isn't suitable right now then find another platform, like AGKv2, which is consistently developed and deployed and won't take too long to catch up.

Even if Rick came along and said, Yes - Lee is making a new version of DBPro - that could still change, that doesn't guarantee that you'll ever see it, things change all the time, and the only thing you can rely on not changing soon is the version of DBPro you have right now. To hell with advanced terrain limb bugs, use something else, make something else, make your own terrain system that trounces AT or buy BlitzT. Don't wait on a definitive answer that you've already been given (=probably not), don't wait to be disappointed by news that should make no difference.

It's results and demand that govern TGC business. How many complex 3D games have been made in DBPro and how many simple 2D games have been made in AppGameKit?
Answer: Very very very few, and a helluva lot.

Now, AGKv2 goes for £75 on Steam, and DBPro is pretty much free... which of these products do you think makes TGC the most money!???
Answer: It's obvious!

If TGC hadn't developed AppGameKit, and just stuck with DBPro, then we'd be very lucky if TGC were still in business now. DBPro is not a competitive product in it's field - it's value is all in the people that use it and the products they produce with it. That might not suit everyone, but what does suit everyone is TGC being in business, and business often involves trimming fat and concentrating on things that actually result it profit.

I am the one who knocks...
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Ortu
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 22:12 Edited at: 26th Mar 2015 22:15
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no one is disputing that tgc focus should be on profitability, which pretty much means agk, the main point of the thread however is that supposedly improvements to dbpro *have already been made* in order to facilitate the development of reloaded/gameguru.

the question is, will these improvements be released as an update to the public? and if profitability is a concern, I think just about everyone interested in this update is willing to pay for it.

users get an improved dbpro, tgc gets additional income for work already performed. seems like a win win.

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Adrian
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Posted: 26th Mar 2015 22:58
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Quote: "no one is disputing that tgc focus should be on profitability, which pretty much means agk, the main point of the thread however is that supposedly improvements to dbpro *have already been made* in order to facilitate the development of reloaded/gameguru.

the question is, will these improvements be released as an update to the public? and if profitability is a concern, I think just about everyone interested in this update is willing to pay for it. "

Exactly, if you are using a modified version of DBPro to make Game Guru, release it to the people who supported the company originally and release it (preferably for free, but a small fee would also be ok.)
I don't know why they are reluctant to do so. They obviously think it's good enough to use on their own projects, just throw us a bone!

Quote: " To hell with advanced terrain limb bugs, use something else, make something else, make your own terrain system that trounces AT or buy BlitzT."

That bug prevents you from making infinitely scrolling terrains easily - yes you can cram them together to cover the gaps but that leads to other problems.
Your solution then, is to either write a terrain system yourself or spend money to fix a problem that could (and possibly already has) been fixed already, but not released to the original users.

Quote: "or buy BlitzT"

I already have. It's very good but isn't entirely bug-free itself.
The point I was making is that we feel abandoned.

Quote: "it's value is all in the people that use it"

and those people have not been treated very well lately it seems to me. It certainly feels that way.

Quote: "If TGC hadn't developed AppGameKit, and just stuck with DBPro, then we'd be very lucky if TGC were still in business now"

Yes, how lucky we all are.
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BatVink
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 17:19
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One thing to point out is that TGC never asked for an upgrade fee since 2002 - 13 years ago!. That is pretty much unheard of in any software market.

Compare the original version with the current release and see how much more they gave their customers for free. In this time there was a backlash against any attempt to sell plugins or upgraded functionality (Cries of "This should be in the standard product!"). This is an unsustainable model, and attributable mainly to the customer base causing a ruckus at any hint of paying for new features they never paid for in the first place.

Unfortunately this has been to the detriment of those who would pay for extra features (and developer salaries) and create a sustainable, market-following language.

Use Visual Studio as a comparison. There have been 10 major releases. Does anyone who bought the original expect to get the newer versions for free? Do you think it would still be a viable product if they gave all the new versions for free? The reason there is now a free version is that it gathered enough momentum by charging for every upgrade from 1997 to 2010, and became a behemoth of a product with a huge commercial following.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
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Sph!nx
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 19:08
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I would not mind paying for a new version or upgrade...

Regards Sph!nx
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Adrian
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 21:05
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Quote: "One thing to point out is that TGC never asked for an upgrade fee since 2002 - 13 years ago"

It's great that they did this but in a way it has lead to the situation we are in now.
I think most of the users here would be happy to pay a small fee every now and again to get an upgrade. I don't think anyone's asking for it to be free.
It might be interesting to create a thread where people can say that they would be willing to pay for an upgrade. It wouldn't make any difference though ultimately :-(

Quote: "In this time there was a backlash against any attempt to sell plugins or upgraded functionality"

I was not aware of this. I've been quite happy to pay for a few plug-ins that I think have enhanced the basic program.
BlitzTerrain, Dark Imposters being the last couple. I think having a plug-in system that is open to third party developers is one of the strengths of DBPro

Quote: "Does anyone who bought the original expect to get the newer versions for free?"

I don't think that anyone that has contributed to this thread has said that. See the entry above this one!
I think if it was advertised as being in the original program (and I bought mine back when it was first released) it should have free updates to fix the bugs that are always missed when a program is released, but anything "major" after that should be paid for (even if it's done on a donation basis).

DBPro is a great program. It feels like it's 95% complete and wouldn't take too much effort to sort it out once and for all.
Maybe we should start a kickstarter campaign to raise the cash to get a couple of weeks worth of debugging and sorting-out done :-P

I would definitely be happy to pay for an upgraded version - DB Elite that was teased a while ago would be welcomed by many.
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Guido Italy
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Posted: 27th Mar 2015 21:09
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Quote: "<< I would definitely be happy to pay for an upgraded version - DB Elite
that was teased a while ago would be welcomed by many. >>"


I also !!!!!!!
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BatVink
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Posted: 28th Mar 2015 14:46
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Quote: "I don't think that anyone that has contributed to this thread has said that. See the entry above this one!"


I agree, but there have been too many others that wanted everything for free.

One of the issues was the blurring of bug fixes with new functionality. Bug fixes should be free, and separated from the new features. Unfortunately this didn't happen.

The other issue is the price point. Bizarrely if you pay $1000 for software you expect to have to pay for upgrades. When the price is $100, people demand more free upgrades Many users are also in their teens (which is great and should be encouraged) but the side effect is very little disposable cash.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
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Gervais
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Posted: 28th Mar 2015 17:34 Edited at: 28th Mar 2015 18:00
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Well in this day and ages nothing is completely free I do agrees that we should try for the Kikstarter approach to see what everyone thinks

There always the one that will cry that it should be free but no one can live for free these days


And I did love the Plug-in I almost have all of them and was able to create some for my use in what I am currently working on

Maybe the Kikstarter could have different objective like start first objective release what have been fix by lee then fix all current known bug and then add functionality for direct x 10 or 11 or 12 we could have a pole to add extra options and TGC could decide what amount would be required to reached those objective
And the upgrade only go to the ones that have pledge for them or eventually could be purchase the final product from TGC
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Adrian
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Posted: 29th Mar 2015 15:26
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Quote: " I have a PC with the Windows 10 Tech Preview installed, and it will not let me install DX9 on it"

I had an update to my Windows 10 this morning and my programs are able to run again as normal now. Not sure exactly what was changed but have tried two different programs and both ran fine. It might be worth having another go at installing.
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Kingius Returns
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In the same way that TGC have taken another shot at FPS Creator and done a stellar job with reloaded, so I think that TGC should do with dbPro. If I want to make a serious game, there's no way I'm ever going to choose AGK. Fair play to those that do and produce an Angry Birds knockoff, but if you want my opinion, there's already a thousand of those (and the success of Angry Birds is probably down to a big marketing spend anyway) so I'll steer clear of that market segment. Db, then later dbPro, lets us build serious games for the PC if we want to. How proud would TGC be if the next indie game similar to Legend of Grimrock was built in dbPro (or a successor), for example...
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BatVink
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Posted: 10th Apr 2015 11:35 Edited at: 10th Apr 2015 11:36
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Quote: "Fair play to those that do and produce an Angry Birds knockoff"


You're right, many games are very similar to other mobile games. But the same applies to DBPro. Most people are knocking off other AAA titles, but in this case it's infinitely harder to get even close to the quality of the original.

I too would love to see a new DBP, but the output is speaking volumes for the customer-base. AppGameKit is producing half a dozen published games or more each month, and is capable of creating things like Echoes+ with thousands of downloads. DBP output is close to zero. It's not fair to blame the lack of updates, people are not even publishing simple 2D games, or making good use of what already exists in the engine.

I've been a DBP user since 2003, published a game to AppUp with over 1,000 downloads, and won several competition prizes with DBP so I write as a long-term fan.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
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Van B
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Posted: 10th Apr 2015 12:04
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I'm the same Batvink - DBPro has served me incredibly well since day 1, and I just wish I had more time to devote to a big DBPro project that isn't just a remake of an old speccy game.

I used to spend holidays just working on projects and I haven't done that in a long time, need to get back to that - it's good to spend a whole week starting a project I think, then it gains some decent traction and it's easier to keep at it. Helps to have no life during that first week of course - the suns no good for us anyway.

I am the one who knocks...
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Sph!nx
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Posted: 10th Apr 2015 15:00
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Well, I guess we just have to wait and see what Lee will do after a while when GameGuru is finished or at a certain point. It will not stop me from using DBP.

I'm working an interesting project and hope to start a WIP thread soon and show some stuff. (The big thing preventing me to start a thread is the fact threads auto-lock and progress might not be as fast at all times... so I'll wait a bit more).

Regards Sph!nx
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Cescano
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Posted: 10th Apr 2015 19:09 Edited at: 10th Apr 2015 19:14
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BatVink, Echoes+ maybe got thousands of downloads, but is free, it's normal that a free to play game on a Platform like steam that has like 100 millions users will get downloaded so much.

Games like Echoes could be made in 1-2 weeks, games made in dbpro could take even years, but, what about quality? There are WAY better games than Echoes+ even on mobiles, what's the point to play a game like that on PC? Also I see it has ZERO reviews here in my country (italy), so I don't know where these 589 reviews come from, are them all true?

Also, the fact that most people "are knocking off other AAA titles" with dbpro, doens't mean that all of them do that, there are still original ideas and things that could sell thousands of times on steam (by paying, not free download), this means that there is a potential of using dbpro to have a full or part time job doing that (if you are good enough), and put the Whole day into it to let your passion build something to be proud of, something of quality, a REAL game, not the 2d games where you get bored after a couple of minutes.

Also, we don't ask neccessarily to build dbpro again from zero, but maybe do some "paying updates" like multicore support for example, and in the next years an higher version of directx, something that could allow us to keep it up with dbpro with the years without leaving it become an obsolete tool
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Guido Italy
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Posted: 10th Apr 2015 21:32
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I totally agree !!!!

(Sono totalmente d'accordo !!! )
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BatVink
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Posted: 10th Apr 2015 21:51 Edited at: 10th Apr 2015 21:53
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Quote: "Echoes+ maybe got thousands of downloads, but is free, it's normal that a free to play game on a Platform like steam that has like 100 millions users will get downloaded so much"


I agree. But nobody is doing the same with DBPro

Quote: "but, what about quality? There are WAY better games than Echoes+ even on mobiles..."


I disagree about quality, Echoes is a well made, high quality, bug free game.

Quote: "what's the point to play a game like that on PC?"


It is designed for PC. It's also out on Ouya.
Again I repeat, nobody is doing the same with DBPro. The last game of the same quality and success was...Echoes.


Quote: "...there is a potential of using dbpro to have a full or part time job doing that"


xGEKKO is already working full time, making AppGameKit games and earning a living.

Quote: "...put the Whole day into it to let your passion build something to be proud of, something of quality, a REAL game, not the 2d games where you get bored after a couple of minutes."

That is personal opinion. I also prefer full games on a PC or console. BUT 2D games are hugely popular and successful. There is a huge marketplace for them, and that marketplace runs on impulse purchases - a couple of Euros for a game, and in-app purchases. You now get high-production adverts on TV for mobile games. The market is growing.

Quote: "maybe do some "paying updates" like multicore support for example, and in the next years an higher version of directx, something that could allow us to keep it up with dbpro with the years without leaving it become an obsolete tool"

As I said earlier, I agree. I'm not against everybody here who wants an updated DBPro, I support them. But if you want to form a cohesive case for an upgrade, then you have to take the facts at face value. You can't pretend that AppGameKit is in a non-existent market for 2D games that nobody plays. You can't pretend that DBPro is being used to produce many high-quality games. You can't pretend that the users have taken DBPro as far as it can go. Rubbish in, Rubbish out; if a 3D scene is made of badly-constructed amateur media in DX9, it will be made of badly-constructed amateur media in DX11.

Make a good case, and maybe you will be heard. Tell TGC that AppGameKit is crap and provide no evidence that your game is pushing the boundaries of DBPro, then you will not be heard.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
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Cescano
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Posted: 10th Apr 2015 22:24
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How could Echoes could be an high quality game? It's just a space invaders like the one I had 10-15 years ago on my nokia 3310, but with colors, I really can't understand where you see all this beauty on this simple game.
Also How can you say a game has success if it is sold for free with no income at all, if you do that you are aware that your game is Worth zero.

About this xGEKKO, can you link me at some of his games? I am really curious on how someone could make a living with these "mobile like 2d games", I don't see them selling so much, and even on the Windows Marketplace there aren't so many games, the few indie games out there have no reviews or almost no reviews, some even if they are free, I do not see all this "market" on the mobile side
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BatVink
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Posted: 10th Apr 2015 23:07
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Quote: "I really can't understand where you see all this beauty on this simple game"


You are making my point for me. Firstly, although I like this game, so do many others, including Steam who chose to feature it on the casual games homepage. I am not being subjective and expressing only personal opinion, I am providing evidence of the full picture.
Despite its simplicity, nobody is publishing anything close to it in DBPro. This is just one example, you also have the Driving Test apps written in AGK. These have racked up over 5 million downloads, hundreds of thousands are for the paid versions and scoring 4.4 from thousands of reviews.

xGEKKO is here. I post this link in the full knowledge that although he is succeeding in his business, you will use it to chastise AGK.

For the record (again), I am a fan of DBPro. I am not pitting one against the other. I am highlighting where the bid for a new DBPro is going wrong. Scorning AppGameKit will not help the cause. It is a successful product, producing apps and games that are popular with a large audience. This is no reflection on DBPro, in fact it is testament to it as its younger sibling.

AGK users had an opportunity to support a new, paid version, and they voted with their cash. Perhaps they should do the same with DBPro. Launch a Kickstarter and it will highlight if there is a sustainable demand.

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
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BatVink
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Posted: 10th Apr 2015 23:21
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One more thing, which you should approve of...the Italian members of this community tend to be the most productive and successful

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur
TutCity is being rebuilt
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Cescano
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Posted: 11th Apr 2015 00:07
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Quote: "Despite its simplicity, nobody is publishing anything close to it in DBPro"


I don't agree with this, there are games made in dbpro, even on steam, that are much much better then this space invaders with colors called echoes+


Me too I am working on a game since the 10th of august of 2014, and I am planning to release the Alpha version on steam this summer (on the greenlight obviously, to be approved needs a few months more I think, which I will use to add things)

For the moment I don't want to say too much, but when I will release it on the greenlight I will surely add the video trailer under the "program announcements" forum
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 11th Apr 2015 00:24
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Quote: "Quote: "Despite its simplicity, nobody is publishing anything close to it in DBPro"

I don't agree with this, there are games made in dbpro, even on steam, that are much much better then this space invaders with colors called echoes+"


I agree with that statement and those games could be created more simply if their authors didn't have to spend ages trying to find ways around DBPro peculiarities. An update is long overdue.

I suspect the main problem is whether there's enough money in it for TGC not how successful games written in DBPRO are.



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Ortu
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Posted: 11th Apr 2015 08:13
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Quote: "Well, I guess we just have to wait and see what Lee will do after a while when GameGuru is finished or at a certain point. It will not stop me from using DBP.

I'm working an interesting project and hope to start a WIP thread soon and show some stuff. (The big thing preventing me to start a thread is the fact threads auto-lock and progress might not be as fast at all times... so I'll wait a bit more)."


it takes months before it will auto lock, and any mod can unlock it for you after a quick PM or email.

It can be intimidating to post a WIP, and can seem like a lot of effort to keep it updated, but it really doesn't need to be either of those things. Believe me, I know first hand how it felt leading up to starting mine http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=211983&b=8 but Sulium has come a *long* way in the past 10 months and I'm firmly convinced that it wouldn't be half as far if I hadn't posted that WIP.

Post early, post often.

Each post doesn't need to be some major progress update. Just talk, conversationally, about what you are working on, what you've done, and what you plan to do.

feedback and exposure can only benefit both the project and the community. Over the past year some really great WIPs have started up and are actively maintained.

---

You can't really compare the quantity of output between the platforms. Even among professional studios these are apples and oranges and and the output ratio is similar. mobile games are smaller in scope and faster to produce vs typical PC games which can take years even for teams.

In my opinion, the biggest problem most DBpro projects face actually has little to do with DBpro itself. It's a lack of professional grade art or collaboration with a professional grade artist.

3d is simply held to higher standards, visually, than 2d and individuals capable of mastering both code and 3d media to commercial standards are rare.

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Sph!nx
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Posted: 11th Apr 2015 16:25
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Ortu, Thanks for the encouragement. I still like to do some stuff before I start the WIP thread, but you can count on it that one will come.

Regards Sph!nx
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wattywatts
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Posted: 11th Apr 2015 19:43
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I find that whenever I start a WIP thread I never finish the project.
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Kingius Returns
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Posted: 11th Apr 2015 22:40
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Wattywatts, it does pay to hold on to a project and only talk about it when it reaches a certain level of maturity, I find. And no offense to anyone, but if anyone tries to tells me that I should be making a space invaders clone, I find it a bit insulting. We developers are capable of so much more than that. We just happen to be very fond of Basic - and Darkbasic at that. You won't convince us otherwise, but you will service us with updates and we'll pay for useful content like model packs and so on... if you're smart I've spent over a hundred pounds on model packs for FPSC (TGC, go check my orders) in the past and I'm sure there are others here who will pay for the assets to make some serious games, too. My project is still in progress, but when you are working on something as a hobby, timescales are not an issue.
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Bored of the Rings
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Posted: 10th May 2015 13:43
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After playing around with Game-Guru and AGK2, I always end up going back to DBPro. I guess I'm old school and prefer total programming control. AGK2 is great, but I think DBPro just has a lot more flexibility and a wide range of plugins as well as allowing me to write my own commands etc.
Am giving GG/AGK2 a break for a while to get on with some raw hands-on programming and back to some of my neglected projects I started last year.
As an old Vic-20/Amiga programmer, I've even gone back to writing some stuff in Assembly language/machine code.
I will still be using AGK2 for when I want to do stuff for tablet/mobile etc.
I really hope somewhere down the line DBPro is enhanced, it would a shame to see it go down the plug-hole.
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Green Gandalf
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Posted: 10th May 2015 17:26
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Quote: "I always end up going back to DBPro. I guess I'm old school and prefer total programming control."


Same here.



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Stab in the Dark software
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Posted: 10th May 2015 20:27 Edited at: 10th May 2015 20:29
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DBPro still has a lot of potential. Evolved has released a new version of Advanced Lighting with Terrain, Editing, Saving and Loading.
I will be testing my Bullet Physics DLL with it soon.



WindowsXP SP3,Vista,Windows 7 SP1, DBpro v7.7RC7
Stab In The Dark Editor
The coffee is lovely dark and deep,and I have code to write before I sleep.
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